Hindu creationism and Cremo's Forbidden Archaeology

[Spirit_Warrior]

I am really interested in what kind evidence is that Cremo has discussed in his books and documentaries on forbidden archaeology of allegedly actual finds by scientists, reported in scientific literature including scientific journals of human fossils, footprints and artefacts going up 2 billion years, which have been suppressed because they challenge TOE. Do you know about this evidence, and what do you think of this evidence? Whose read his books?

Some background: Cremo is a Hindu creationist, a member of the Hare Krishna movement, which is out to prove his own belief of the validity of Hindu views on evolution. Hinduism presents a very interesting case, it is a religion where evolution is actually taught as a doctrine that our spirit form evolves across 8.4 million life forms from lowest being protoplasm to highest being Lord Brahma, creator of the universe. So the belief is that we need to continue our evolution. However, at the same time Hinduism teaches that modern humans have been around for 2 billion years on the planet. It talks of cycles of human life(manvatara) each lasting 306.72 million years, each one ending with a mass extinction, we being the 7th human life on this planet. The last one began 120 million years ago after the great deluge(yes, exactly the same story is taught in Hinduism)

There are ways to interpret how Hinduism accepts both creationist and evolutionist beliefs. One way is to explain it as all animal species existing at the same time and the spirit just moves through them as it evolves and the other way is that humans did not evolve on this planet at all, but came from another planet. In that way it is not a challenge to TOE at all, it just means that we evolved elsewhere and migrated to this planet. There is least one Hindu organisation that subscribes to this view the Shaiva Siddhanta Church in Hawai.

 

[निताइ dasa]

Hi,

So this is a controversial topic, and I've had many debates with other members regarding this Cremo's work. You can read one such discussion in the link below:
Veda Shruti and Modern Science

I've read his book, and the evidence presented was quite convincing to me at least, because of the sheer number he produces. Not only does he produce the evidence, but he backs it up by sourcing it to the primary journals in which they are found in. Most of the opposition to Cremo's study is not to the evidence itself, but rather to the fact the Cremo doesn't have a sufficient academic credentials in the field of Archaeology to make any sort of conclusion regarding the matter, but I see no problem if he is quoting evidence directly from primary journals and studies. Despite the criticism (which there was, alot), reviewers did compliment Cremo on the thorough way he compiled all the research. The book is quite dry actually, and reads sort of like a catalogue of evidence.

Also I will admit that I have a bias in this matter too, because I am a Gaudiya Vaishnav (Hare Krsna) and we to tend to take a literal view of the Puranas, especially when it deals with dates (like Lord Rama appeared millions of years ago, and humans existed at that time).

One way is to explain it as all animal species existing at the same time and the spirit just moves through them as it evolves and the other way is that humans did not evolve on this planet at all, but came from another planet. In that way it is not a challenge to TOE at all, it just means that we evolved elsewhere and migrated to this planet. There is least one Hindu organisation that subscribes to this view the Shaiva Siddhanta Church in Hawai.

Actually, I share a similiar view to this. Human species are all eternally present in some way or another, but the soul moves through and evolves to higher and higher forms. Scripture describes that there are 8, 400, 000 different species,of life but they are differentiated by modes of consciousness rather than physical characteristics. As for when and how these species appeared (from a shastric POV), I am not quite sure yet. In certain scriptures, all the species appear at once (in the Puranas, all the species are not created, but manifest as progeny of Daksha Prajapati), while in others they appear gradually. But the time frames in which they appear seem to be very different from the current Darwinist consensus. But I agree, Hinduism can accept evolutionist and creationist beliefs (or a combination of them).

 

[Spirit_Warrior]

I've read his book, and the evidence presented was quite convincing to me at least, because of the sheer number he produces. Not only does he produce the evidence, but he backs it up by sourcing it to the primary journals in which they are found in. Most of the opposition to Cremo's study is not to the evidence itself, but rather to the fact the Cremo doesn't have a sufficient academic credentials in the field of Archaeology to make any sort of conclusion regarding the matter, but I see no problem if he is quoting evidence directly from primary journals and studies. Despite the criticism (which there was, alot), reviewers did compliment Cremo on the thorough way he compiled all the research. The book is quite dry actually, and reads sort of like a catalogue of evidence.

Fantastic, I have no yet checked the thread you linked, so I don't know if it mentioned there, but can you mention some of that evidence here so we can discuss it.

 

[निताइ dasa]

Fantastic, I have no yet checked the thread you linked, so I don't know if it mentioned there, but can you mention some of that evidence here so we can discuss it.

You can read the book online, here, for references etc. If you find something interesting, we can discuss it. The notable artifacts are near the end. The way Cremo discusses is pretty good. He presents the evidence, then quotes from primary literature the interpretations of said artifacts from reputable archaeologists. In the previously linked thread, we discussed Reck's skeleton.

Once such evidence is the The Heidelberg Jaw (page 345). The jaw was dated " somewhere between 250,000 and 450,000 years". Cremo presents the following comments"

Even today, the Heidelberg Jaw remains somewhat of a morphological mystery. the thickness of the mandible and the apparent lack of a chin are features common in Homo erectus. But mandibles of some modern Australian aboriginals are also massive compared to Jaws of modern Europeans and have chins that are less well developed (Le Gros clark and campbell 1978, p. 96, figure 1 1). According to Frank e. poirier (l977, p. 213), the teeth in the Heidelberg Jaw are closer In size to those of modern Homo Sapiens than those of Asian Homo Erecture Java man and peking man). t. W. phenlce of Michigan State University wrote (1972, p. 64): " the teeth are remarkably like those of modern man In almost every respect. Including size and cusp patterns." Modern opinion thus confirms Ranke, who wrote in 1922: 'The teeth are typically human: the canines do not project above the level of the other teeth. and the third molar, which In primitive races of men-for instance often In the aboriginal Australians-Is similar in size to or even larger than the second. Is smaller In the Heidelberg Jaw, Just as in our more advanced races today" ( Wendt 1972, p. 162). Many Homo erectus Jaws are characterized by projecting canines and a diastema, a gap In the teeth that accommodates the tip of a projecting canine. the fact that these features were absent In the HeldelbergJaw, and other considerations, led poirier (1977, p. 213) to question: " Is Heidelberg a representative of Homo erecllls or a primitive member of the species H. sapiens? The HeldelbergJaw Is one of the few european fossils generally attributed to Homo erectlls. Another Is the Vertesszollos occipital fragment. from a Middle pleistocene site in Hungary. The morphology of the Vertesszollos occipital is even more puzzling than that of the HeldelbergJaw. david pilbeam (1972, p. 169) wrote: "the occipital bone does not resemble that of H. erectus. or even archaic man. but Instead that of earliest modern man. Such forms are dated elsewhere as no older than 100,000 years." Pilbeam believed the Vertesszollos occipital to be approximately the same age as the Heidelberg jaw, between 250,000 and 450,000 years old. if the Vertesszollos occipital is modern In form, it helps confirm the genuineness of anatomically modern human skeletal remains of similar age found In england at Ipswich (Section 6.1.3) and Galley Hill (6.1.2.1). Returning to the Heidelberg Jaw, we note that the circumstances of discovery were less than perfect. If an anatomically modern human Jaw had been found by a workman in the same sand pit. it would have been subjected to merciless criticism and judged recent. After all. no scientists were present at the moment of discovery. But the Heidelberg Jaw, because it fits, however imperfectly, within the bounds of evolutionary expectations, has been granted a dispensation.


But in all honestly, haha this type of discussion bores the heck out of me. I would rather discuss scripture interpretation. I won't be much help in this discussion I'm afraid.

 

[Spirit_Warrior]

But in all honestly, haha this type of discussion bores the heck out of me. I would rather discuss scripture interpretation. I won't be much help in this discussion I'm afraid.

I agree, that was extremely boring to read! However, it is still within the margins when modern humans appeared some 500,000 years ago. What I really want to see is modern humans appearing before no humans at all, so that even explanations like recent burial like in the the thread you described, cannot be used to explain it away. If we find human fossils during the Jurassic age, that would definitely be interesting!

 

[George-ananda]

I am really interested in what kind evidence is that Cremo has discussed in his books and documentaries on forbidden archaeology of allegedly actual finds by scientists, reported in scientific literature including scientific journals of human fossils, footprints and artefacts going up 2 billion years, which have been suppressed because they challenge TOE.

I am fascinate by this topic but there is so much information that I become bewildered. Have you ever seen some type of graphic diagram or something showing what Cremo is saying? Maybe that might start to help me understand.

 

[sayak83]

I am really interested in what kind evidence is that Cremo has discussed in his books and documentaries on forbidden archaeology of allegedly actual finds by scientists, reported in scientific literature including scientific journals of human fossils, footprints and artefacts going up 2 billion years, which have been suppressed because they challenge TOE. Do you know about this evidence, and what do you think of this evidence? Whose read his books?

Some background: Cremo is a Hindu creationist, a member of the Hare Krishna movement, which is out to prove his own belief of the validity of Hindu views on evolution. Hinduism presents a very interesting case, it is a religion where evolution is actually taught as a doctrine that our spirit form evolves across 8.4 million life forms from lowest being protoplasm to highest being Lord Brahma, creator of the universe. So the belief is that we need to continue our evolution. However, at the same time Hinduism teaches that modern humans have been around for 2 billion years on the planet. It talks of cycles of human life(manvatara) each lasting 306.72 million years, each one ending with a mass extinction, we being the 7th human life on this planet. The last one began 120 million years ago after the great deluge(yes, exactly the same story is taught in Hinduism)

There are ways to interpret how Hinduism accepts both creationist and evolutionist beliefs. One way is to explain it as all animal species existing at the same time and the spirit just moves through them as it evolves and the other way is that humans did not evolve on this planet at all, but came from another planet. In that way it is not a challenge to TOE at all, it just means that we evolved elsewhere and migrated to this planet. There is least one Hindu organisation that subscribes to this view the Shaiva Siddhanta Church in Hawai.

The posts in the old thread linked below may be useful...
Dharmic Religions Only: Evolutionary Science and Hindu/Buddhist worldviews.