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Discussion in 'Religious News' started by Jonathan Bailey, May 29, 2019.

  1. Jonathan Bailey

    Jonathan Bailey Active Member

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    Not all churches, even in the South, wave "God Hates F_gs" banners.

    The United Methodist Church claims that "Homosexuality is not compatible with Christian teachings."

    This is questionable since no commandment in the bible forbids it and Jesus never says a word of it.

    Affirming churches or denominations do not consider homosexuality or transgender as sins.

    The Bible, Christianity and Homosexuality | GayChurch.org

    For one of the men in the sexual encounter to be treated as one would treat a woman, the man would have been taking a lower status. To do so would have been reducing him to property and in effect defiling the image of God, which man was considered. To fully understand this law, we must consider the historical context in which it was written.

    The Old Testament was initially a part of the Hebrew Scriptures of the Jewish people. The Septuagint was an ancient translation of the Old Testament from its original Hebrew into Greek. It was the “version” of the Old Testament that the New Testament writers quoted from when they cited Old Testament scriptures. The Hebrew word in this specific law we are looking at that was translated into English as “abomination” was translated in the Septuagint into the Greek word bdelugma. A quick search through a lexicon for the word bdelugma brings up the following definition:

    • a foul thing, a detestable thing
    • of idols and things pertaining to idolatry

    This seems to point to the idea that this specific law has more to do with a matter of ritual purity and with the Hebrews not being like the idolatrous Babylonians or Canaanites. As we see, this law isn’t as simple as it appears. First of all we have a very unclear law (“And with a male you shall not lay lyings of a woman.”). Second of all, we must consider the historical context of how men treated women in sexual encounters. Thirdly, as revealed through Christ, the fulfillment of the law is truly love. Rape, stealing, hating, etc. are immoral because they are not in line with the Law of Love, which Christ frames so perfectly when questioned about the law. Is a committed homosexual relationship in violation of this law? We could become like the Pharisees and Sadducees trying to pick apart this law forever, but if we look closely, Christ’s life truly reveals the Spirit of the Law. Surely this is what Paul meant when he wrote, “But now we are discharged from the law, dead to that which held us captive, so that we serve not under the old written code but in the new life of the Spirit” (RSV Romans 7:4-6).


    Leviticus 18:22 King James Version (KJV)


    Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.


    In other words:

    You (male) will not take an inferior (female) social status with another male: it's a shame.

    In other words, a man shall not be reduced by another man to the status of property as like cattle
    and asses.

    Does "lie with" even mean "have sex with" here? Is it a mistranslation? Is it OK for a man to have sex with another man BUT just not in the same manner as a man has sex with a woman? A man has no vagina so I don't even see how a man could possibly have sex with another man as if he were a woman.

    In Genesis, it says Adam KNEW his wife and she conceived. It does not say theta Adam lay with his wife and she conceived. Nowhere in the bible is a man expressly forbidden to KNOW (or have carnal knowledge of) another man.

    The writing of Paul negates this old purity law of the Jews anyway in Romans 7:4-6. I would say a same-sex committed adult relationship is not forbidden under new life in the Spirit.
     
    #1 Jonathan Bailey, May 29, 2019
    Last edited: May 29, 2019
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  2. leov

    leov Well-Known Member
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    Has homosexuality any purpose in God's Natural Law? That is , imo, foundation to work from.
     
  3. columbus

    columbus Conservative Catholic from Hell

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    Maybe homosexuality is God's way of saying "Enough with the be fruitful and multiply already!".

    We do live in a world with well over 7 billion people, after all.
    Homosex is a way to meet the need for a romantic/erotic relationship, without adding to the problem.
    Tom
     
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  4. leov

    leov Well-Known Member
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    I do not think so, homosexuality as ancient as man. Real purpose of childbirth is agape.
     
  5. Terrywoodenpic

    Terrywoodenpic Oldest Heretic

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    God's Natural Law is what we observe. It is a reflection of the way the world is.
    Clearly Homosexuality is part of that being and law. It is reflected in the nature of of the animal kingdom including man.
    It seems to me it is wrong to rule against nature, as created by God.
    God does not Love all men ...except Homosexuals.
    It is not a question of sin or forgiveness, neither is applicable. Homosexuality clearly has an equal place in God's creation.
     
  6. leov

    leov Well-Known Member
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    As violation of the natural lol aw. Any purpose? Training?
     
  7. Terrywoodenpic

    Terrywoodenpic Oldest Heretic

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    It violates no natural law.
    It only runs counter to some of mans social laws.
    The Animal kingdom seem just fine with it.
    To be homophobic is counter to God's law of loving all mankind. and all his creation.
    God put no limits on Love.

    The OP also suggest that Women are of lower status then men, which is totally in error.
    It is true that some cultures and societies, treat women as inferiors, but God never does.
     
  8. leov

    leov Well-Known Member
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    I can not think of any purpose of homosexual acts in nature.
     
  9. Jonathan Bailey

    Jonathan Bailey Active Member

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    Old Jewish law in the OT puts women lower than men. Paul in Romans seems to dispose of that.

    My only question is: are there any LBGT-affirming churches that still reject the ordination of women into the ministry?
    The NT seems dead set against women clergy in I Corinthians and I Timothy.
     
    #9 Jonathan Bailey, May 29, 2019
    Last edited: May 29, 2019
  10. columbus

    columbus Conservative Catholic from Hell

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    Because "nature" is an extremely poor guide to ethics.

    Theft, rape, and murder are natural. Cooking, praying, writing, and learning better morality than nature is what is unnatural.

    I don't understand why people refer to nature as a moral guide. It's what moral humans are rising above.
    Tom
     
  11. leov

    leov Well-Known Member
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    Any sexual relationship may be immoral.
     
  12. columbus

    columbus Conservative Catholic from Hell

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    I'm rather a prude.
    I think that lots of sex is irresponsible and immoral. Especially the potentially procreative kind.

    It's a powerful force in the human psyche and must be treated with respect and care.
    Tom
     
  13. leov

    leov Well-Known Member
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    It is hard to judge : People are different, I mostly agree with you.
     
  14. Jonathan Bailey

    Jonathan Bailey Active Member

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    This computer I'm typing upon is not part of nature.

    I do believe sex, all orientations, is natural. But is it GOOD or BAD?

    It's bad if underage children are involved.
    It's bad if it's rape or sexual assault.
    It's bad if it's pedophilia.
    It's bad if it leads to children's being conceived out of wedlock.
    It's bad if it afflicts others with social diseases, especially HIV.
    It'd bad if it's excessive: beyond moderation.
     
  15. Terrywoodenpic

    Terrywoodenpic Oldest Heretic

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    Nor can I, but it happens. More often with some species than others.
     
  16. Terrywoodenpic

    Terrywoodenpic Oldest Heretic

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    Bad is a pejorative word.
    Some acts are illegal and some socially unacceptable. Both aspects seem to have moving goalposts over time.
    wedlock is perhaps the least recognised today.
    And how do you measure excessive?
     
  17. Terrywoodenpic

    Terrywoodenpic Oldest Heretic

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    II do not see how LBGT issues are related to the Ordination of women. The Anglican Church has completely accepted Women priests at every level.
    However it is at an earlier stage in LLBGT issues , but is a work in progress. And in many respects accepts same sex partnerships,

    It certainly accepts that it has a duty of care and love towards them.
     
  18. Jonathan Bailey

    Jonathan Bailey Active Member

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    I was making a correlation because, to my understanding, women ministers seem to have a strong presence in affirmed churches.

    I can't name one LGBT-AFFIRMED church that I know of off-hand that still rejects female clergy
    though they decategorize LGBT as sin.
     
  19. Jonathan Bailey

    Jonathan Bailey Active Member

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    In nature, same-sex mating can only be for pleasure or relieving anxiety or stress. Opposite-sex mating can do all that too but it has the added purpose of species continuance. Masturbation and sometimes abstinence occur in nature too. Mother Nature has a purpose for everything though human minds can't always readily grasp it.
     
  20. columbus

    columbus Conservative Catholic from Hell

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    If the human race has any problems with "species continuence", it's over population.
    It isn't lack of procreation.

    That's why homosex is more moral than heterosex most of the time.
    Tom
     
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