Her Body / Her Choice / Her problem

[SkepticThinker]

Again I have no idea, because I have no idea on what you personally mean by “bodily autonomy”,

And you refuse to provide a definition

..

But from your comment it is obvious that you have been indoctrinated, being pro life has nothing to do with being “anti women” …………. Being pro life simply means that one affirms that:

1 it is wrong to kill innocent humans

2 a fetus is an innocent human

You can be a feminist and affirm those premises; you can be misogynic and deny those premises or viceversa ……… these premises are just philosophical statements that you can accept or reject regardless of your position on gender equality.

You've been given the definition of bodily autonomy several times now ...

The right of an individual to determine the use of their own body.

 

[leroy]

You've been given the definition of bodily autonomy several times now ...

The right of an individual to determine the use of their own body.

Ok I don’t the right to punch you in your face. Despite the fact that it is my body, it is my hand it is my fist,...........I don thave the right to use by body and harm you

And given that I am male

I fulfilled the request ,posted by penguin

Do any of those limits to bodily autonomy apply to anyone other than women?

see above, I gave you an example of a limit to bodely autonomy that applies to a man

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Ok I don’t the right to punch you in your face. Despite the fact that it is my body, it is my hand it is my fist,...........I don thave the right to use by body and harm you

And given that I am male

I fulfilled the request ,posted by penguin





see above, I gave you an example of a limit to bodely autonomy that applies to a man

You don't understand what bodily autonomy is.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Ok I don’t the right to punch you in your face. Despite the fact that it is my body, it is my hand it is my fist,...........I don thave the right to use by body and harm you


And given that I am male

I fulfilled the request ,posted by penguin


see above, I gave you an example of a limit to bodely autonomy that applies to a man

You tried this one on me already.
I already responded to it.


Penguin gave your his/her definition already on page 2 of this thread:

I know that isn't true, but I'll play along.

Bodily autonomy, also called bodily integrity, is our right to governance over our own bodies, including:

• The right not to be pregnant.
• The right to refuse surgery and medication.
• The right to refuse to provide parts of your body (e.g. organs, tissue, fluids) for use by others.
• The right not to be a medical test subject.

 

[leroy]

You don't understand what bodily autonomy is.

You don't understand what bodily autonomy is.

Of course, not, that is why I keep asking for a definition or an explanation on what you personally mean

 

[leroy]

You tried this one on me already.
I already responded to it.


Penguin gave your his/her definition already on page 2 of this thread:

I know that isn't true, but I'll play along.

Bodily autonomy, also called bodily integrity, is our right to governance over our own bodies, including:

• The right not to be pregnant.
• The right to refuse surgery and medication.
• The right to refuse to provide parts of your body (e.g. organs, tissue, fluids) for use by others.
• The right not to be a medical test subject.

The right to refuse surgery and medication.

Ok a 5yo boy that refuses to take medication , but his parents are forcing him to take that pill…………. So once again I fulfilled the request made by @9-10ths_Penguin , I gave an example of a case where I would support a limit to bodily autonomy in males

Bodily autonomy, also called bodily integrity, is our right to governance over our own bodies, including:

Btw, why is me punching you in your face excluded in that definition?.........dont I have right to move my hand in any direction that I whant?

The right not to be pregnant.

Granted, nobody has the right to force a woman to become pregnant, she can use all the condoms that she wants to prevent pregnancy, or even refusing to have sex.

But once she is pregnant, then killing an innocent human trumps bodily autonomy (I would argue)

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Of course, not, that is why I keep asking for a definition or an explanation on what you personally mean

... which you've been given many times. You're either unable or unwilling to process it.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Ok a 5yo boy that refuses to take medication , but his parents are forcing him to take that pill…………. So once again I fulfilled the request made by @9-10ths_Penguin , I gave an example of a case where I would support a limit to bodily autonomy in males

Not a good example. Parents and guardians provide consent when the child is too young to do it themselves.

Infringing bodily autonomy in that case would be if the child and parents both said "no," but the doctor forced the child to take the pills anyway.

 

[leroy]

Not a good example. Parents and guardians provide consent when the child is too young to do it themselves.

Infringing bodily autonomy in that case would be if the child and parents both said "no," but the doctor forced the child to take the pills anyway.

Not a good example according to what? the definition that I was given didn’t exclude 5yo boys

If you don’t want bad examples then provide your definition, such that “bad examples” would be excluded in that definition

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Not a good example according to what?

Not a good example of bodily autonomy.

the definition that I was given didn’t exclude 5yo boys

Everyone has the right to bodily autonomy. It's just that when someone lacks the capacity to understand their rights and the consequences of their choices - e.g. when they're five - their rights are exercised by a steward, typically a parent in the case of a child.

If you don’t want bad examples then provide your definition, such that “bad examples” would be excluded in that definition

I already have. Several times. If I thought you weren't going to just ignore it again, I'd give it again... but your track record has used up any benefit of the doubt I might have given you at one point.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Ok a 5yo boy that refuses to take medication , but his parents are forcing him to take that pill…………. So once again I fulfilled the request made by @9-10ths_Penguin , I gave an example of a case where I would support a limit to bodily autonomy in males


Btw, why is me punching you in your face excluded in that definition?.........dont I have right to move my hand in any direction that I whant?





Granted, nobody has the right to force a woman to become pregnant, she can use all the condoms that she wants to prevent pregnancy, or even refusing to have sex.

But once she is pregnant, then killing an innocent human trumps bodily autonomy (I would argue)

You claimed you haven't been given a definition. I pointed out that you have, several times.
I've already responded to your example of punching someone in the face. Please stop just repeating yourself again and again as though these things haven't already been addressed.

 

[leroy]

You claimed you haven't been given a definition. I pointed out that you have, several times.
I've already responded to your example of punching someone in the face. Please stop just repeating yourself again and again as though these things haven't already been addressed.

And based on that definition I gave examples where a male should “sacrifice” bodily autonomy ….. so the request was fulfilled,.

I've already responded to your example of punching someone in the face.

no
You haven’t, punching you in the face is consistent with your definition of bodily autonomy

 

[SkepticThinker]

And based on that definition I gave examples where a male should “sacrifice” bodily autonomy ….. so the request was fulfilled,.

And rebutted. By Penguin.

no
You haven’t, punching you in the face is consistent with your definition of bodily autonomy

No, it isn't because punching someone in the face violates their bodily autonomy. As already pointed out.

 

[leroy]

No, it isn't because punching someone in the face violates their bodily autonomy. As already pointed out.

In the same way, crushing a fetus head violates his bodily autonomy.


You see, if you define bodily autonomy as

1 the right to do whatever you want with one´s own body ……….. This would include me punching you in your face.(and therefore bodily autonomy wouldnt be a right)

If you define it as

2 the right to do whatever you want to do with your own body, as long as you don’t hurt (or kill ) others, then killing a fetus (aborting) would not be included in bodily autonomy rights

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

In the same way, crushing a fetus head violates his bodily autonomy.


You see, if you define bodily autonomy as

1 the right to do whatever you want with one´s own body ……….. This would include me punching you in your face.(and therefore bodily autonomy wouldnt be a right)

If you define it as

2 the right to do whatever you want to do with your own body, as long as you don’t hurt (or kill ) others, then killing a fetus (aborting) would not be included in bodily autonomy rights

You still don't get it.

Bodily security includes:

• the right to refuse the use of your body by others.
• the right to deprive others from the use of your body,
  • even if they're currently using it,
  • even if they die as a result of being deprived of your body, and
  • even if the act of stopping them kills them.

And because it's been a while since there was a reminder: you haven't actually done anything to support the idea that a fetus should have all the rights of a person. This tangent is all just about how if you did manage to do that somehow, you still wouldn't have a case for banning abortion.

 

[leroy]

You still don't get it.

Bodily security includes:

• the right to refuse the use of your body by others.
• the right to deprive others from the use of your body,
  • even if they're currently using it,
  • even if they die as a result of being deprived of your body, and
  • even if the act of stopping them kills them.

And because it's been a while since there was a reminder: you haven't actually done anything to support the idea that a fetus should have all the rights of a person. This tangent is all just about how if you did manage to do that somehow, you still wouldn't have a case for banning abortion.

(Ok ignoring the fact that you are not providing any definition)



If that is what you mean then I would say that males don’t have the right to kill their conjoined tween brothers …......
I am pretty sure that having a conjoined brother sucks but I don’t think they have the right to kill their brothers even if one depends on the other, especially if doctors say that they can solve the problem, split the 2 brothers and save both life’s (we only have to wait for in 9 months for medical supplies to arrive)

So once again I fulfilled your request of providing an example of a limit to bodily autonomy that would be applicable to men................
Please acknowledge explicitly that I fulfilled your original request



For example a few months ago I heard a case of 2 conjoined tweens, one of them had a week heart , so in reality the other heart was pumping blood for both………. For this reason doctors where unable to split the tweens in that particular moment.

After a few days, doctors hill the week heart and they were capable of successfully splitting both bodies and both life’s where saved.

So I would say that none of the 2 persons had the right to kill their brother. Regardless if they were male or female,

Would you affirm the opposite? Do you think that conjoined tweens have the right to kill their brtohers?.................if not, why do you think this is different from abortion?

 

[SkepticThinker]

In the same way, crushing a fetus head violates his bodily autonomy.

Said fetus is already violating the bodily autonomy of the person it resides within unless that person consents to allow the fetus to continue residing there.

You see, if you define bodily autonomy as

1 the right to do whatever you want with one´s own body ……….. This would include me punching you in your face.(and therefore bodily autonomy wouldnt be a right)

No, because it violates the bodily autonomy of the person you are punching, unless that person consents to being punched in the face.

If you define it as

2 the right to do whatever you want to do with your own body, as long as you don’t hurt (or kill ) others, then killing a fetus (aborting) would not be included in bodily autonomy rights

Answered above.

 

[leroy]

Said fetus is already violating the bodily autonomy of the person it resides within unless that person consents to allow the fetus to continue residing there.]

In the same way you are violating my bodily autonomy by putting your face in the exact location where my fist is.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

In the same way you are violating my bodily autonomy by putting your face in the exact location where my fist is.

You are aware, that you don't have bodily autonomy, like you have a body as a process, right?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

(Ok ignoring the fact that you are not providing any definition)

If I thought there was any point in providing it again, I would.

If that is what you mean then I would say that males don’t have the right to kill their conjoined tween brothers …......
I am pretty sure that having a conjoined brother sucks but I don’t think they have the right to kill their brothers even if one depends on the other, especially if doctors say that they can solve the problem, split the 2 brothers and save both life’s (we only have to wait for in 9 months for medical supplies to arrive)

So once again I fulfilled your request of providing an example of a limit to bodily autonomy that would be applicable to men................
Please acknowledge explicitly that I fulfilled your original request



For example a few months ago I heard a case of 2 conjoined tweens, one of them had a week heart , so in reality the other heart was pumping blood for both………. For this reason doctors where unable to split the tweens in that particular moment.

After a few days, doctors hill the week heart and they were capable of successfully splitting both bodies and both life’s where saved.

So I would say that none of the 2 persons had the right to kill their brother. Regardless if they were male or female,

Would you affirm the opposite? Do you think that conjoined tweens have the right to kill their brtohers?.................if not, why do you think this is different from abortion?

In this story of yours, did one of the brothers clearly express that he wanted to be separated from his brother even if it meant his brother's death?

And in the case of conjoined twins, exactly how did you decide precisely where one person's body ends and another person's begins?