Her Body / Her Choice / Her problem

[leroy]

Her Body / Her Choice / Her problem

I´ve notice that some “pro-choice” arguments can be used by male jerks to avoid responsabilities, or to justify horrible crimes agaisnt a woman, I would like to ask pro choice people their opinion about these

Some examples:


Argumet: 1

Her Body / Her Choice

What a jerk might argue using that logic:

I jerk would add "Her Body / Her Choice / Her problem"

If one grants that the woman can do whatever she wants with her body including killing the fetus, then why should the man have any responsibility if the mother decides not to abort? If she has the right to abort and avoid the responsibility of being a mother why can’t the man also avoid such responsibility and avoid things like child support?........
After all she decided to have the child when she had the alternative to abort, and she knew that the man is not willing to pay for child support, why should the man have any responsabilities?



Argument 2

It’s not a human worthy of human rights, it´s just a tumor or a parasite, as valuable as an intestine worm.

If woman have the right to kill intestine worms in her body, why can´t she simply kill the embryo?

What a Jerk might argue using that logic

If the fetus is just an intestine worm, it´ shouldn’t be illegal to force a woman to abort, a father shouldn’t go to prison for forcing her 15yo daughter to abort , I force my 3yo daughter against her will to take antibiotics and kill parasites all the time, and as far as I can tell, I don’t deserve to go to prison for that……….. so why is forcing a woman to kill an embryo considered a serious crime.?........


Argument 3

All woman should have the right to abort, even if they are 12yo even without the consent of their parents, no question should be asked, no cops involved

What a jerk might say/do:

A rapist could rape his 12yo neighbor, and then send her to an abortion clinic, nobody would ask any questions, nobody would make any investigation and the rapist can repeat his crime over and over again.

From the point of view of a pro lifer it is very easy to refute the Jerk “it is not her body” (and therefore not just her problem) ……… it´s a human and therefore forcing a woman to kill a human should be a serious crime, and any 12yo girl that became pregnant was obviously the victim of sexual abuse, so yes we should tell her parents, and call the police and start an investigation.


My question for pro choicers is:

How would you refute a Jerk without denying or rejecting the original arguments?

It seems to me that by using these arguments you are opening the door to more injustice and violence against the woman, (which would be again the goal of any feminist movement)……


With Jerk I mean “any male that would do something against woman rights”

 

[Secret Chief]

Jerk? Does this count as a loaded question? A jerk might argue the opposite.

 

[Secret Chief]

If the fetus is just an intestine worm

Did you skip basic biology class?

 

[Guitar's Cry]

Her Body / Her Choice / Her problem

I´ve notice that some “pro-choice” arguments can be used by male jerks to avoid responsabilities, or to justify horrible crimes agaisnt a woman, I would like to ask pro choice people their opinion about these

Some examples:


Argumet: 1

Her Body / Her Choice

What a jerk might argue using that logic:

I jerk would add "Her Body / Her Choice / Her problem"

If one grants that the woman can do whatever she wants with her body including killing the fetus, then why should the man have any responsibility if the mother decides not to abort? If she has the right to abort and avoid the responsibility of being a mother why can’t the man also avoid such responsibility and avoid things like child support?........
After all she decided to have the child when she had the alternative to abort, and she knew that the man is not willing to pay for child support, why should the man have any responsabilities?



Argument 2

It’s not a human worthy of human rights, it´s just a tumor or a parasite, as valuable as an intestine worm.

If woman have the right to kill intestine worms in her body, why can´t she simply kill the embryo?

What a Jerk might argue using that logic

If the fetus is just an intestine worm, it´ shouldn’t be illegal to force a woman to abort, a father shouldn’t go to prison for forcing her 15yo daughter to abort , I force my 3yo daughter against her will to take antibiotics and kill parasites all the time, and as far as I can tell, I don’t deserve to go to prison for that……….. so why is forcing a woman to kill an embryo considered a serious crime.?........


Argument 3

All woman should have the right to abort, even if they are 12yo even without the consent of their parents, no question should be asked, no cops involved

What a jerk might say/do:

A rapist could rape his 12yo neighbor, and then send her to an abortion clinic, nobody would ask any questions, nobody would make any investigation and the rapist can repeat his crime over and over again.

From the point of view of a pro lifer it is very easy to refute the Jerk “it is not her body” (and therefore not just her problem) ……… it´s a human and therefore forcing a woman to kill a human should be a serious crime, and any 12yo girl that became pregnant was obviously the victim of sexual abuse, so yes we should tell her parents, and call the police and start an investigation.


My question for pro choicers is:

How would you refute a Jerk without denying or rejecting the original arguments?

It seems to me that by using these arguments you are opening the door to more injustice and violence against the woman, (which would be again the goal of any feminist movement)……


With Jerk I mean “any male that would do something against woman rights”

Argument 1: You consented to sex, meaning that you took the risk of getting a woman pregnant. She then has the choice of carrying that child to term, which also means you risk needing to help support that child, which you should do because you chose to take the risk of getting a woman pregnant.

Argument 2: Can you clarify? It sounds as if you are saying prochoice arguments could be used to justify a male making the choice for his daughter?

Argument 3: You are a potential murderer for wanting to hurt a human with a developed sense of self and emotions.

 

[crossfire]

1. Vasectomy. Effective, and easy to obtain. (It's much easier for a man to get a vasectomy than for a woman to get her tubes tied. His body, his choice.)
2. Male birth control--very easy to obtain, (no prescription needed) easy to use, with the added bonus of STD protection.

 

[Estro Felino]

I firmly believe in free will.
So a person does have the freedom to take that decision, because nobody knows how significantly an unwanted pregnancy can affect the psyche of a person.
But since in my country it is the State that pays for the abortions, the State has the right to discourage them. By making contraception affordable, (and in some cases available for free), and by forcing the pregnant patient to undergo a psychological visit before the procedure (both surgery and pill).

Let's speak of this psychological visit. I will describe two hypothetical situations, and that is what a psychologist here would probably (and much likely) say in such situations (our public healthcare therapists are pretty outspoken).

Situation A: Marina, 17 year old.
Marina: I was raped, I don't want to deliver the baby of such a bad person.
Therapist: Sweetheart, that's heartbreaking. Don't you worry, the physician will take care of everything.

Situation B: Diana, 40 year old.
Diana: The truth is that my husband and I don't use any kind of protection. He doesn't like condoms, I don't take the pill because they say it makes you gain weight. That night we did this and that...()...
Therapist: That's utterly squalid. If you and your husband want to engage in kama sutra, at least use contraception, first. Abortion is not a joke, it is not a contraceptive. It is a serious procedure.

Understand the difference?

As for Argument 3), Marina will be asked to sue the rapist, who will be arrested of course.
That is why our healthcare system asks lots of questions.
Like "who did this" and "how it happened in detail".

 

[Estro Felino]

1. Vasectomy. Effective, and easy to obtain. (It's much easier for a man to get a vasectomy than for a woman to get her tubes tied. His body, his choice.)
2. Male birth control--very easy to obtain, (no prescription needed) easy to use, with the added bonus of STD protection.

By the way, there is something that is not taboo here in Europe and is called birth control pill, or hormonal pill.
The German pharmaceutical companies make the best and the most effective hormonal pills in the world.
Effectiveness 97-99%

 

[Left Coast]

Argument 3

All woman should have the right to abort, even if they are 12yo even without the consent of their parents, no question should be asked, no cops involved

What a jerk might say/do:

A rapist could rape his 12yo neighbor, and then send her to an abortion clinic, nobody would ask any questions, nobody would make any investigation and the rapist can repeat his crime over and over again.

This is a strawman of the prochoice position and what actually happens. No one gets abortions "no questions asked." Licensed medical professionals ask people seeking abortions how they got pregnant, they discuss options with them and their reasons for desiring one. They are mandated reporters who report crimes like rape and sexual assault to the necessary authorities.

 

[Revoltingest]

I think he dislikes us jerks.

 

[leroy]

Argument 2: Can you clarify? It sounds as if you are saying prochoice arguments could be used to justify a male making the choice for his daughter?[

If you argue that the fetus is not a human but rather just a parasite (analogous to an intestine worm) then forcing a woman to abort shouldn’t be a serious crime.

Fathers force their daughters to kill parasites all the time, forcing his daughter to kill this other parasite that we call “embryo” shouldn’t be different

Argument 3: You are a potential murderer for wanting to hurt a human with a developed sense of self and emotions.

My point is that if a 13yo goes to a clinic for an abortion this clinic should tell her parents and the police about this situation. Agree?

 

[Revoltingest]

If you argue that the fetus is not a human but rather just a parasite (analogous to an intestine worm)...

Many humans are parasites, eg, lawyers.

 

[SomeRandom]

Her Body / Her Choice / Her problem

I´ve notice that some “pro-choice” arguments can be used by male jerks to avoid responsabilities, or to justify horrible crimes agaisnt a woman, I would like to ask pro choice people their opinion about these

Some examples:


Argumet: 1

Her Body / Her Choice

What a jerk might argue using that logic:

I jerk would add "Her Body / Her Choice / Her problem"

If one grants that the woman can do whatever she wants with her body including killing the fetus, then why should the man have any responsibility if the mother decides not to abort? If she has the right to abort and avoid the responsibility of being a mother why can’t the man also avoid such responsibility and avoid things like child support?........
After all she decided to have the child when she had the alternative to abort, and she knew that the man is not willing to pay for child support, why should the man have any responsabilities?



Argument 2

It’s not a human worthy of human rights, it´s just a tumor or a parasite, as valuable as an intestine worm.

If woman have the right to kill intestine worms in her body, why can´t she simply kill the embryo?

What a Jerk might argue using that logic

If the fetus is just an intestine worm, it´ shouldn’t be illegal to force a woman to abort, a father shouldn’t go to prison for forcing her 15yo daughter to abort , I force my 3yo daughter against her will to take antibiotics and kill parasites all the time, and as far as I can tell, I don’t deserve to go to prison for that……….. so why is forcing a woman to kill an embryo considered a serious crime.?........


Argument 3

All woman should have the right to abort, even if they are 12yo even without the consent of their parents, no question should be asked, no cops involved

What a jerk might say/do:

A rapist could rape his 12yo neighbor, and then send her to an abortion clinic, nobody would ask any questions, nobody would make any investigation and the rapist can repeat his crime over and over again.

From the point of view of a pro lifer it is very easy to refute the Jerk “it is not her body” (and therefore not just her problem) ……… it´s a human and therefore forcing a woman to kill a human should be a serious crime, and any 12yo girl that became pregnant was obviously the victim of sexual abuse, so yes we should tell her parents, and call the police and start an investigation.


My question for pro choicers is:

How would you refute a Jerk without denying or rejecting the original arguments?

It seems to me that by using these arguments you are opening the door to more injustice and violence against the woman, (which would be again the goal of any feminist movement)……


With Jerk I mean “any male that would do something against woman rights”

My dad who was very pro choice used to say, if you’re not man enough to step up to the plate (take care of the kid, at least some of the time) you’re not man enough to have sex.
I would agree with that.
Abortion is strictly the mother’s choice because it’s her womb that’s being occupied. But if she carries it to term, well she didn’t have an immaculate conception. It takes two to tango, so both have the responsibility.
It’s why “men” who leave without so much as a goodbye are known as deadbeat fathers and rightly criticised by society for failing to make the mature decision to take responsibility for their own actions. Unless the man was raped, no one forced them to have sex after all.

 

[crossfire]

If you argue that the fetus is not a human but rather just a parasite (analogous to an intestine worm) then forcing a woman to abort shouldn’t be a serious crime.

Fathers force their daughters to kill parasites all the time, forcing his daughter to kill this other parasite that we call “embryo” shouldn’t be different

Pregnancy is not a contagious health condition, unlike intestinal parasites.

My point is that if a 13yo goes to a clinic for an abortion this clinic should tell her parents and the police about this situation. Agree?

If a 13 year old winds up pregnant I agree that the parents and/or appropriate authorities should be informed.

 

[SomeRandom]

My point is that if a 13yo goes to a clinic for an abortion this clinic should tell her parents and the police about this situation. Agree?

They should tell the police. But the parents could be potential suspects.
So ideally yes but the clinic might have reservations, depending on the advice given by the police

 

[leroy]

My dad who was very pro choice used to say, if you’re not man enough to step up to the plate (take care of the kid, at least some of the time) you’re not man enough to have sex.
I would agree with that.
Abortion is strictly the mother’s choice because it’s her womb that’s being occupied. But if she carries it to term, well she didn’t have an immaculate conception. It takes two to tango, so both have the responsibility.
It’s why “men” who leave without so much as a goodbye are known as deadbeat fathers and rightly criticised by society for failing to make the mature decision to take responsibility for their own actions. Unless the man was raped, no one forced them to have sex after all.

Yes, i think the way one is supposed to see it is that “Child Support” is the child´s right (not the mothers right)

So even if we grant that women have more rights than men, because women have the right to “not be mothers”….. the child´s right to get food and shelter tromps any “gender inequality” that might result form that .

 

[SomeRandom]

Yes, i think the way one is supposed to see it is that “Child Support” is the child´s right (not the mothers right)

So even if we grant that women have more rights than men, because women have the right to “not be mothers”….. the child´s right to get food and shelter tromps any “gender inequality” that might result form that .

I might quibble a little with your wording, but I ultimately agree with that

 

[gnomon]

Yes, i think the way one is supposed to see it is that “Child Support” is the child´s right (not the mothers right)

So even if we grant that women have more rights than men, because women have the right to “not be mothers”….. the child´s right to get food and shelter tromps any “gender inequality” that might result form that .

This thread is going nowhere.

Try harder.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

So much wow.
Takeaway from the OP is that jerks make ridiculous assertions to avoid responsibility, therefore abortion should be banned.

As an exercise in mental gymnastics it's somewhat admirable.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

I think he dislikes us jerks.

Hard to believe.

 

[leroy]

They should tell the police. But the parents could be potential suspects.
So ideally yes but the clinic might have reservations, depending on the advice given by the police

Some pro choicers are suggesting that women (even teenagers) should have the right to have a free and anonymous abortion, without the consent or even the knowledge of the parents.

My point is that these type of "laws" seem to be for the benefit of rapists , not for the benefit of women.