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Hellish near death experiences

Hawkins

Well-Known Member
Within my own NDE, learned the word 'Ramifications', as didn't know it before the experience, and had to look it up...

We get to feel the ramifications of our actions: the way we made others feel; if we failed to educate someone to the best of our abilities, and we made them fall, this comes back to us.... It is slightly overwhelming for most.

Matthew 7:2 For with whatever judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with whatever measure you measure, it will be measured to you.

Hell was like lots of quantum strands, each is a soul... It sort of appeared as a dark murky mix of sad colours to me.. It is a place of lost souls in most religious ideas of it, the lowest quantum dimension.

They got quite mad at me, and smothered me down there for trying to help them with repentance, and enlightenment; so then I called out, "But I know Oneness", and God rescued me, pulling me up to Heaven (Oneness) in a tunnel of light.

There are loads more details...

In my opinion. :innocent:

In my case, I speculated the same during the so-called NDE and after coming back. I believe that after being resurrected my soul didn't combine well with my body which actually allowed my continued speculation extended from NDE till more than 40 minutes after coming back to reality.
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
In my case, I speculated the same during the so-called NDE and after coming back. I believe that after being resurrected my soul didn't combine well with my body which actually allowed my continued speculation extended from NDE till more than 40 minutes after coming back to reality.
Wow. Now what exactly did you speculate?

Do you mind telling about your circumstances in which you had your experience?
 

Hawkins

Well-Known Member
Wow. Now what exactly did you speculate?

Do you mind telling about your circumstances in which you had your experience?

I believe that the experience itself is very well laid. So it's more like with rich information packed into a small experience. It took years to figure it out bit by bit what its contents mean to say.

Basically the NDE itself is unexpected everyone. It's unexpected by me and the doctors. I was not even in the ICU. I was with no equipment on me. Then when it hit, I suddenly realized that I was going to die. I was in a panic and tried to get up yet I couldn't. I only managed to be in a sit up position but something dragged me back to the lying position. The one in the sit up position is actually my soul, it's my body which kept dragging my soul back to position. During this several times of attempting to get up. It seems to me that Hades is more or less resembles our ocean. It's felt as air just like our space however visually things look more like under water. The relative motions are more like how things moving under water. The sitting up and lying down visually look a bit slower than in air, but more like within water. The environment is more like a deep evening (though it's a sun shine afternoon) where I merely saw the hospital environment.

I believe that it's a perception of soul/spirit to know so clearly that "I am going to die". So the first speculation is that "you simply know things, crystal clear". I was in another panic when I knew (crystal clear) that there's an injection which could possibly save my life. So it's another try to get up to ask the doctors to give me that specific injection. Of course, I was in the sit up position again but being pulled back to the lying position. This specific injection was confirmed later by the doctors after I coming back to reality. The doctors explained that after the injection that there's fight between the medicine and the virus in me that it caused an NDE. It's like two days later when the principle doctor came for a regular visit, without knowing what happened he looked at my records and yelled that "you should have been dead with that figure" (I guess he's talking about my blood pressure measured after 15 minutes of my coming back).

I am too busy to put everything here. I speculated how those souls in Hades talked. Then I saw a cherub approaching me. I didn't know what it is back then so I simply yelled "ghost", and all the doctors (4 of them) and nurses in the room came. They tried all kinds of tests on me and confirmed that I was fully conscious. The cherub stayed around a meter above me for like more than 40 minutes during which I tried my best to distinguish if it's a delusion of some kind. For example, I tried to close my eyes then it's not there but whenever I reopened my eyes it's in the same location. I tried to view it from the different angels in different ways, it's still there.

Then two weeks later I happened to meet with a lady who claimed to see the same before. She can even name one of the characteristics of the cherub which I didn't tell her. That's one of the many reasons why I consider the experience is well laid, including the meeting of this only lady who ever saw what I saw (and that's two weeks later but not a year or ten years later).
 
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Eliab ben Benjamin

Active Member
Premium Member
So are you saying that that huge percentage of people who've clinically died and are resuscitated repress their memories because it was a horrifying experience?

Some of us may tend to repress them as we are aware of the negating response we may recieve.
 

David1967

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Yes all sorts mixed together; had meant to be picking psilocybin; yet it was early morning, and couldn't see clearly, so eat lots without testing had got the right ones.

As far as wild mushrooms, I stick with morels. Pretty safe for a novice like me to identify.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I've had dreams of very specific things. Turns out my family was conversing in the other room or the tv was on or something. I've heard hearing is the last to go. While I tend to be open towards NDEs, it's also possible that they are just hearing what's going on in the conversations.
Just so. Which is why new information about local reality must be discounted as evidence.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Are you familiar with the cases of Pam Reynolds, Dr. Lloyd Rudy's patient, and the patient in the AWARE study?

If so, then explain how Pam Reynolds was able to report what her surgeons said when her ears were occluded and subjected to rather loud clicking and white noise, and was able to describe the surgical saw used to her skull open.

Explain how Dr. Rudy's patient was able to report Drs. Rudy and Amado-Cattaneo standing in the doorway and talking when he was flatlined, and was able to describe the string of Post-it notes on the computer monitor.

Explain how the AWARE study patient was able to hear and report the automated instruction of the AED machine.
I quote >Wikipedia< quoting psychologist Chris French discussing the statement by anesthesiologist Gerald Woerlee, who after examining the case, concluded that Reynolds' ability to perceive events during her surgery was the result of "anesthesia awareness" ─

Woerlee, an anesthesiologist with many years of clinical experience, has considered this case in detail and remains unconvinced of the need for a paranormal explanation... [He] draws attention to the fact that Reynolds could only give a report of her experience some time after she recovered from the anesthetic as she was still intubated when she regained consciousness. This would provide some opportunity for her to associate and elaborate upon the sensations she had experienced during the operation with her existing knowledge and expectations. The fact that she described the small pneumatic saw used in the operation also does not impress Woerlee. As he points out, the saw sounds like and, to some extent, looks like the pneumatic drills used by dentists.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary demonstration, and this, being a claim about the existence of an alternative reality, is truly extraordinary. As long as reasoned and credible critiques of the central claims are available in this fashion, no such extraordinary demonstration has been given.

Consider the explanation that the subject had hallucinations that purely by chance coincided with reality. That has greater probability of being true than the 'supernatural realm' notion. Here the critique I quoted regarding Pam Reynolds is vastly stronger than the 'pure chance' explanation.
 
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QuestioningMind

Well-Known Member
But even in those cases where a near death experience was induced by
a reaction to a drug...... for example LSD in the case of actor Larry Hagman......
why do these experience result in such a massive change in the way that
the experiencer view the world and their place in it afterward?

Why would such an experience even result in a surge in IQ and other mental,
psychic and spiritual gifts afterwards?


The Trigger of Drugs: Larry Hagman's Near-Death Experiences

The Trigger of Hallucinogenic Drugs:
Larry Hagman's Near-Death Experiences

larry_hagman.jpg

Larry Martin Hagman (1931--2012), www.larryhagman.com, was an actor best known for playing the ruthless oil baron, J. R. Ewing, in the 1980's television show "Dallas", and the astronaut Major Tony Nelson in the 1960's sitcom "I Dream of Jeannie." His television appearances also included guest roles on dozens of shows spanning from the late 1950s up until his death, and a reprisal of his signature role on the 2012 revival of Dallas. He also worked as a producer and director on television. Hagman was the son of actressMary Martin. He underwent a life-saving liver transplant in 1995. Although Hagman was a member of a 12-step program, he publicly advocated marijuana as a better alternative to alcohol. He died on November 23, 2012, from complications of acute myeloid leukemia. The following article was written by John L. Griffin, PhD for World University of Ojai, California about Larry Hagman's experiences with LSD and NDEs.

"Why would such an experience even result in a surge in IQ and other mental,
psychic and spiritual gifts afterwards?"

What evidence do you have that anyone's IQ actually increased after a NDE? Since I've yet to see any evidence that psychic or spiritual gifts exist, I seriously doubt that anyone has had a 'surge' in such gifts.
 

Epic Beard Man

Bearded Philosopher
This to me has the feeling of accuracy from my understanding of what happens after the body is dropped:

In near-death experience, man sees hell where he feels all the bad things he did to others

“I was being put into other people’s shoes as I was doing bad things to them.”

“I could see how insensitive I was to people and didn’t even know it. It was excruciating and overwhelming to relive things that I had forgotten about, or just didn’t care about. I was made to feel they way I made others feel,” he said.

...
“After a long time, my eyes began to burn so badly, I finally decided that it was worth it to put up with the bad flashes if I could just close my eyes for a while. I began to sob quietly as the flashes of my evil ways rushed in, and I heard a voice. It said, ‘If you ask him, maybe he will save you.'”

Jeffrey asked again and again for salvation.
...
“I was an alcoholic drug dealer that had become a thug,” he said. But he turned his life around. He no longer fears death, even after his hellish experience, because of his overarching, peaceful connection to the divine.

To me hell is :30

 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
A hallucination is something you walk away from and say, "Wow, that seemed so real at the time." Simple hallucinations are just temporary phenomena you realize afterward in your normal state of mind were not real.

An NDE, or any mystical state experience, on the other hand is something you walk away from and say, "Wow, all of this world seemed so real before, but now I see the real reality of things", and your life is never the same again. There is no doubt in your "normal" state of consciousness of its enduring reality. And the result is they radically change one's life permanently in positive ways.

The greater more nuanced way of understand them however does address the manner in which these things manifest themselves to the mind. In reality it is the context of the state experience itself that is that "real reality", and less so the content, or the objects that may appear. One may see Jesus, or the Buddha, or Krishna for instance, but those objects in themselves are not ontologically real in themselves as they appear, but there is an ontological reality in which such things arise to the mind. What they represent, is what is Reality. They are symbolic manifestation of an ontological Reality beyond themselves.

Put another way, a simple hallucination is a "trip" somewhere. A mystical state experience is a return Home to Reality. Then "normal" consciousness itself is seen and understood as a hallucination. Culturally speaking, it's a mass hallucination.
 
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DennisTate

Active Member
"Why would such an experience even result in a surge in IQ and other mental,
psychic and spiritual gifts afterwards?"

What evidence do you have that anyone's IQ actually increased after a NDE? Since I've yet to see any evidence that psychic or spiritual gifts exist, I seriously doubt that anyone has had a 'surge' in such gifts.


Bruce MacDonald reports…..


….." Hi again,I have been involved in another discussion about Near Death Experiences and my latest entry to that forum might be of interest, especially since it gives a more detailed description of the NDE and also takes up some of the objections which some of the more materialist members of the forum had brought to bear against the valididty of NDEs as accurate reflections of some aspect of human experience. So here is my posting from that forum:



I kind of wonder whether I should get into this, because I know the powerful resistance (even fear) of those who think this is all nonsense, but since I had a very detailed NDE in 1966, I might as well. I have had hallucinations because of illness and medical drugs, have had lucid dreams and ordinary dreams, as well as many experiences in meditation of what one might call `transcendance` but the NDE was nothing like any of those. It is quite distinct as a life experience, and had a profound effect on my life – actually changing the direction of my life completely. I had intended to become a minister in the United Church of Canada and instead got a PhD and became a university English Professor, exploring the roots and dynamics of creativity and the relationship between consciousness, culture, ideology and art. Also, one would think that the possible oxygen deprivation of these experiences (NDEs) would cause some brain damage and thus a decrease in IQ, but quite to the contrary, it seemed as if my abilities were increased by the experience and I was able to achieve intellectual things which had been beyond me before the NDE. In the ten years from June 1966 to June 1976, including the seven months in hospital in 1966, I was able to complete a BA, MA and PhD from three different universities, teach full time for four years at three universities, get married and have two children. The NDE gave me an impetus to achieve which I did not have at all before that. Hallucinations do not have that kind of effect.



Below I quote the description of the NDE from The Thomas Book, a book I wrote about the NDE and its aftermath, which was published in 2009, ironically after a severe case of viral encephalitis which wiped out most of my memory. After that illness I had to rebuild my memory banks and my ability to write, since I could not sign my name, copy numbers from a bill to a cheque or remember the names of people I had known for years before the encephalitis in 1991. I used meditation to recover my memory and wrote about that experience as well as providing a text book to learn that kind of healing meditation in The Prayer of Silence (2011). That these experiences are put into books does not support the argument that they are being exploited to make money. Rather they point to the tremendous motivation to share the experiences because they are seen as evidence of hope in life in a world which tends to denigrate anything which suggests hope beyond the bare minimum of materialist reductionism.



After the encephalitis, with its severe memory loss, and while I was still suffering from its effects, a neuropsychologist at the University of Regina ran me through a whole battery of tests, including IQ tests. He said that the tests demonstrated a pattern of memory loss which is specific to encephalitis. One would expect in that state of still suffering from memory loss and from the effect of the serious brain damage from the illness that my IQ would have been reduced considerably. When I asked him what my IQ was he said, `I don`t know.` I asked, `What do you mean, you don`t know, you did a whole battery of IQ tests.` (They involved many different kinds of IQ.) He replied, `I can`t measure your IQ because you topped out on all my tests. It is like trying to measure the temperature in a hot room when your thermometer only goes up to a level which is lower than the temperature in the room and you don`t know how much higher the temperature actually goes.` I asked Buddy what IQ has been measured with these tests and he suggested that the highest he had heard of, off hand, was 220. If that is the case, then my IQ, in spite of the NDE and the encephalitis is somewhere above that, it would seem.



This is not to boast, but to point out that many people who have NDEs have the same experience, of having their intellect suddenly expanded in ways they had not been aware of before the experience. It is as if the NDE opens intellectual doors which had been closed before that experience. Again, hallucinations do not do that…… (Bruce Fraser MacDonald PhD)

Gary Plumley's near death experience and IQ surges given to people who have OBE/ NDE?
Gary Plumley's near death experience and IQ surges given to people who have OBE/ NDE?
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I quote >Wikipedia< quoting psychologist Chris French discussing the statement by anesthesiologist Gerald Woerlee, who after examining the case, concluded that Reynolds' ability to perceive events during her surgery was the result of "anesthesia awareness" ─
Woerlee doesn't conclude from any fact that Reynolds' ability to report the surgeons' words and to describe the surgical saw and tray of interchanged blades was due to anesthetic awareness. He merely asserts it, despite the fact that it doesn't account for her ability to report these things. Right?

So obviously you also haven't accounted for the reports of either Dr. Rudy's patient or the AWARE study patient.

AWARE -- AWAreness during Resuscitation -- A prospective study

Dr. Rudy's account of a patient's veridical perceptions during clinical death

Dr. Amado-Cattaneo's confirmation of Dr. Rudy's account
 

DennisTate

Active Member
Here's a report from a Buddhist perspective which includes the hell state. Tibetan Buddhist Lingza Chokyi's Near-Death Experience

Thank you for this excellent link.......
you may find the results of this poll interesting.

I had thought that the response here would be more positive......



Heaven is For Real, yes or no?


Is Colton Burpo a credible witness?


  1. No.....
    14 vote(s)
    87.5%
  2. *
    Yes...
    2 vote(s)
    12.5%

  3. I am not sure but I will research this further.....
    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I've read a few... the only title I can recall off hand is Evidence of the Afterlife: The Science of Near-Death Experiences.
What is the claim of "the science of near- death experiences" in that book?

Why don't you account for the reports of perceptions by Pam Reynolds, Dr. Rudy's patient and the AWARE study patient? Links to the latter two are above. The best online account of Pam Reynolds' reports are from her own mouth in this video, beginning about 17:43:


Links to a further series of papers in the Journal of Near Death Studies can be found here: People Have Near-Death Experiences While Brain Dead
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
A hallucination is something you walk away from and say, "Wow, that seemed so real at the time."
Hallucination does not account for the experiences or perceptions of people during or immediately after resuscitation from clinical death. Hallucination does not account for the consistent phenomenology of NDEs.

In her study Sartori found that patients who had hallucinations (which were clearly distinguishable from NDEs in various ways) due to large doses of sedatives or painkillers eventually acknowledged that their experience was an hallucination, whereas those who had NDEs remained adamant that their experience was real.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Woerlee doesn't conclude from any fact that Reynolds' ability to report the surgeons' words and to describe the surgical saw and tray of interchanged blades was due to anesthetic awareness. He merely asserts it, despite the fact that it doesn't account for her ability to report these things. Right?
Those who claim that the Pam Reynolds case is evidence of anything unusual carry the obligation of establishing their claim.

So let's start at the beginning.

What exactly is the claim? That is, what fact about objective reality do you say is suggested? Express it as a falsifiable proposition so it can be tested.

And, as I said, and you didn't address, show that it's more likely to be correct than pure chance ─ not to mention anesthesia awareness or any other natural explanation.

You also forgot to tell me what meaning of 'veridical' you're using. (If you don't know, just say so, but don't leave it hanging.)
 
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