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Hellenistic Egypt versus Islamic Egypt

Discussion in 'Historical Debates' started by Estro Felino, Nov 27, 2014.

  1. Estro Felino

    Estro Felino Believer in free will
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    When Alexandria was built in the III century BC, the Ptolemaic kingdom became the richest country in the world. In the Hellenistic Egypt culture, philosophy, astronomy, literature developed and made Alexandria the most beautiful and refined city of the Mediterranean.
    The degree of civilization of the Greeks had never been so high. The Hellenistic values implied an absolute equality between men and women (read Theocritus). In fact women could become queens, like Cleopatra.

    [​IMG]



    well....of course the Islamic civilization, which represents the hatred and the rejection of all that's Greek and Hellenistic, destroyed all this.
     
    #1 Estro Felino, Nov 27, 2014
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2014
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  2. Estro Felino

    Estro Felino Believer in free will
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    Cleopatra represents the embodiment of how holy and sacred femininity and womanliness are.
    And in fact the secret of progress and economic growth is to empower women and to let them decide about their lives.

    People can decide which culture is better.

    Which is more woman? Cleopatra? Or these women?
    [​IMG]
     
    #2 Estro Felino, Nov 27, 2014
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2014
  3. Pastek

    Pastek Sunni muslim

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    That's not true, on the contrary.
    Astronomy was very important for muslims because of the islamic lunar calendar, the prayers and the month of ramadan.
    In Baghdad for exemple they translated many astrology books from chinese, persian, indian and greek.
    The muslims also adjusted some tools like the astrolabe to calculate the exact time of prayer and also for the Qibla (the direction to Mecca for muslims all around the world)

    An early astrolabe was invented in the Hellenistic world in 150 BC and is often attributed to Hipparchus.

    Astrolabes were further developed in the medieval Islamic world, where Muslim astronomers introduced angular scales to the astrolabe, adding circles indicating azimuths on the horizon.


    Astrolabe - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    The Caliph Al Mamun (9th century) send emissaries to collect books from all over the world.

    Al-Ma'mun is also credited with bringing many well-known scholars to share information, ideas, and culture in the House of Wisdom. Based in Baghdad from the 9th to 13th centuries, many learned scholars including those of Persian or Christian background were part of this research and educational institute.
    Besides translating books into Arabic and preserving them, scholars associated with the House of Wisdom also made many remarkable original contributions to diverse fields

    Drawing on Indian, Greek, and Persian texts, the scholars accumulated a great collection of world knowledge, and built on it through their own discoveries. By the middle of the ninth century, the House of Wisdom was the largest repository of books in the world.

    The Sabian Thābit ibn Qurra (826–901) also translated great works by Apollonius, Archimedes, Euclid and Ptolemy.

    Authors translated include: Pythagoras, Plato, Aristotle, Hippocrates, Euclid, Plotinus, Galen, Sushruta, Charaka, Aryabhata and Brahmagupta.


    House of Wisdom - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


    So many greek philosophers, mathematicians etc ... :)


    Egypt is not just Cleopatra or those women - which by the way are free to dress like they want and nothing indicates they are unhappy or uneducated (maybe just poor).

    Egypt is more than that. I grew up watching egyptian shows, movies, singers etc so i think it's unfair to only describe Islam, muslims or a whole country by some stereotypes.
     
  4. Estro Felino

    Estro Felino Believer in free will
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    we are not discussing the degree of civilization of today Egypt.
    I am just wondering why those women don't dress like Cleopatra to honor her memory...
    You said they were poor. What do you mean by that?
    that poor women are not allowed to dress like they want?

    and another thing. I don't doubt that they read Hellenistic writings, but Islam does hate and reject all that is Hellenistic \Greek.

    The Hellenistic values are;
    - Democracy and freedom of speech
    - Freedom of sexual expression: women have the right to show their body and to wear provoking clothes.
    - Freedom of thought: people are free not to agree with the decisions taken by the governmental assemblies.
    - Freedom of religion, of thought, of association.
    - Cultural Equality, or cosmopolitanism: all cultures and all religions are equal before the law and before the state authority
    - Juridic equality between man and woman: women can be supreme authorities (Cleopatra)


    For millenniums women in Egypt have always dress3ed like Cleopatra or like Nefertiti. Then why does Islam prevent them from honoring a glorious past? (Besides, it's more logical to wear these clothes than those ones, with a hot-mild climate like that)

    [​IMG]


    and another thing. what do you think about Cleopatra?
     
    #4 Estro Felino, Nov 28, 2014
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2014
  5. Flankerl

    Flankerl Well-Known Member

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    Yeah for free Men and no one else. Which is besides the point that Ptolemaic Egypt never was anything else than an Absolute Monarchy and had nothing to do with Democracy.


    Freedom of sexual expression? Yeah for free Men.

    Also it's only gay if you receive and not if you give.
    - Greco Roman Wisdom.


    lol what? Do you honestly believe that? Wait... don't answer.


    Oh wow...


    This gets even better.


    You do realise that women on the Ptolemaic Throne were only "Co-Regents", right? She was not at all a supreme authority.
     
  6. Estro Felino

    Estro Felino Believer in free will
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    This thread is about the relationship between Islam and Hellenism.
    Since you are a Jewish woman, may I kindly ask you why it bothers you that I criticize Islam and I say the truth? That I say that Islam represents the hatred towards all that's Greek?
    Since you come from a cultural and religious background which
    has always repelled all that's Greek, I can understand your position.

    You can say whatever you want....yours are just assumptions. I speak about facts.
    and the facts are louder than your words, dear.

    Can you see the difference? Or these images are not clear to you?

    Women in ancient Egypt
    [​IMG]

    Women in Hellenistic Egypt
    [​IMG]





    Women in Islamic Egypt
    [​IMG]
     
  7. Estro Felino

    Estro Felino Believer in free will
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    #7 Estro Felino, Nov 28, 2014
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2014
  8. Flankerl

    Flankerl Well-Known Member

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    What bothers me is that you have some kind of utopian view on Greco-Roman antiquity which goes against anything we have ever learned about this time period and the places it encompassed.

    That said how a woman in a certain culture close to the seat of power(in this case the Pharao) dresses(in this case ancient Egypt(which in itself has nothing to do with Hellenism until Egypt was subjugated by the Greeks) says nothing about the social status about the average woman in this culture.

    Same goes for the marvellous statue. It is an idealised picture of a woman and says nothing about what she went through in everyday life.


    Women in ancient Rome didn't even have a proper name. They were often named after the "House" they were born into.
    "Your name is Julia, it is not your name because we think its a fine name. It is your name because you were born into the House of Julia."

    Then again Roman women weren't chained to their house like in let's say Greece where they were kept like in.... Saudi Arabia. Huh funny.



    If you want a really independent example of a woman during antiquity you have to look outside your Hellenistic bubble and discover Boudica.
    And even then it could be said that this was largely because she was the Chiefs wife.
     
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  9. Pastek

    Pastek Sunni muslim

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    So you are talking about clothes. Why then talking about : philosophy, astronomy, litterature ?

    Will we ask other people from this or that region why they don't dress anymore like their ancestors to "honor" them ? Some men used to wore skirts, dresses, tights ... you know quite well how europeans used to dress.
    Just look at your old kings and noblesse with their tights, littles shorts and heelpiece. Why don't you dress like them ?
    Seriously, what is this all about ...

    "well....of course the Islamic civilization, which represents the hatred and the rejection of all that's Greek and Hellenistic, destroyed all this."

    "and another thing. I don't doubt that they read Hellenistic writings, but Islam does hate and reject all that is Hellenistic \Greek.

    Muslims used the works of other civilizations and conserved many writtings from the Antiquity who would have been lost. I'm not the one saying that, but western historians.
    Many of their knowledge came from old civilizations.
    They may not have accepted some views/ideas because they feel it like anti-islamic but doesn't mean you can say they rejected all of it.

    No, i said "maybe" they are poor. They may just want to wear simple dress. There's many rich people who dress like they have no money at all.
    You put that photo and said concerning those women :

    "And in fact the secret of progress and economic growth is to empower women and to let them decide about their lives.
    People can decide which culture is better.
    Which is more woman? Cleopatra? Or these women?"


    So your are saying that those women only because they dress like that can't contribute to the economy of their country nor they can decide what is good for themseves.

    You came to that conclusion because Cleopatra didn't wear the veil and show some skin ?
    The virgin Mary didn't dress like Cleopatra because she "hated" hellenistic and greek civilization too ?
    Come on ...
    And don't say "she is not egyptian". Because in reality you are juding some women (and their religion) because of how they dress, using the excuse of an old figure to tell them what is supposed to be better for them.

    The Hellenistic values are;
    - Democracy and freedom of speech
    - Freedom of sexual expression: women have the right to show their body and to wear provoking clothes.
    - Freedom of thought: people are free not to agree with the decisions taken by the governmental assemblies.
    - Freedom of religion, of thought, of association.
    - Cultural Equality, or cosmopolitanism: all cultures and all religions are equal before the law and before the state authority
    - Juridic equality between man and woman: women can be supreme authorities (Cleopatra)


    Here we go again. I won't comment on that because it will be too long so i will stick to the women subject.
    But just remember that just few years ago max 1 century ago you didn't have half of those things.

    Nothing.
     
  10. Estro Felino

    Estro Felino Believer in free will
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    wow...I speak about Greek women like the sacred prostitutes in Corinth or Cleopatra and you talk to me about Roman matronae.

    wow...you don't like History, do you?

    Lies, Schwester, lies.
    Hetaira - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Greek Women Classical to Hellenistic: A Brief Discussion of Changing Factors « GraecoMuse

    Prostitution in ancient Greece - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
     
    #10 Estro Felino, Nov 28, 2014
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2014
  11. Estro Felino

    Estro Felino Believer in free will
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    Yes, my main topic is women and clothes. and we Greeks and Italians sometimes dress like our ancestors. When there are special occasions like Greek tragedies or commemorations to celebrate our glorious past.


    Yes, only the works. But I repeat it: Islam hates women and represents the negation of woman's essence. Woman's essence is to seduce men and to turn them on with their beauty.
    Islam prevents women from expressing their own sex appeal and beauty and femininity.
    A woman wearing the veil is an offense to the woman's dignity. It is an offense to the woman's beauty.
    Hellenism wants women to be sexy, to express their female potency, and to turn men on.
    Ergo: Islam is the negation of Hellenism


    Yes, if a woman is submitted to men and is not permitted to wear sexy clothes, she's in a cage. In a golden cage. But it's still a cage.

    Cleopatra wore those dresses and seduced both Ceasar and Mark Anthony. She represents the power of women over men.
    and Islam hates this. Islam hates women's essence. Islam hates woman.
    Read this article by Mona Al-Tahawi

    Why Do They Hate Us?
    Why Do They Hate Us?


    Pastek, don't take it personally: I have a great respect for your book, the Qur'an and for your prophet. But the way Muslims treat women is hideous and wrong. And it is not in the Qur'an. And since it is not in the Qur'an, I say that Muslims should allow women to wear sexy clothes
     
    #11 Estro Felino, Nov 28, 2014
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2014
  12. ShivaFan

    ShivaFan Satyameva Jayate
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    These are some very interesting ideas Hay85. While it is "easy" to be an "arm chair quarterback" after the game is over, and predicting what "would have happened" otherwise if it went the otherway around but almost impossible to prove the point simply because it didn't go the otherway and you cannot turn the clock back and "redo it"...

    ... yet I think you have a lot of truth in this post. Right now we see from recent reports over this week an alarming rise in the presence and support of the black flag of ISIS in Northern Africa - this comes at a time when Obama is moving on unilateral plans (which I will have to pay for but not approved by US Congress) to promise to spend $27 billion dollars to improve the electrical grids of North Africa. I suspect if Hellenistic culture had won in the end across Northern Africa there wouldn't be any issue with the electrical grid requiring Americans like me to fork up $27 billion dollars to "fix it" (probably on the hope this will stem sympathy for ISIS?) ...

    But ...

    There is one way to PROVE some of your premise.

    And that is to once again promote and spread Hellenistic culture across North Africa - it certainly would be less "foreign" to the peoples there than the ISIS culture. But then you would be called a racist by nutjobs if you tried to do so. But why not try?

    In fact, maybe that is exactly the remediation the world needs right now.
     
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  13. Pastek

    Pastek Sunni muslim

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    You presents only one picture of Islam but we are more diverse than that.

    Here a link about an egyptian-lebanese serie from the last Ramadan




    This Egyptian serie is from 2 or 3 years ago during again the Ramadan.
    As you can see egyptians women dress differently.
    The one who wants to cover, cover and the one who doesn't want to do it, don't do it.

     
  14. Estro Felino

    Estro Felino Believer in free will
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    No, dear. You are just demonstrating that there are men who allow women to wear whatever they want. and Men who forbid their wives to wear what they want.

    I don't think that imam's women dress like them
     
  15. Pastek

    Pastek Sunni muslim

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    Just look at Kate Middleton, Rania of Jordan. As princesses they can't dress like Miley Cyrus, they have an image, they represent a country.
    It's the same for the wife of a religious man, she will also dress in a particular manner and because of her statut.
    You may not like how religious people dress, but excuse-me it's not your buisness. Or you like freedom or you don't.
    And of course there's men you force women and other who don't force them. But you can't know if a woman with a veil is forced or not.
     
  16. Estro Felino

    Estro Felino Believer in free will
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    wow...it's like you said that Egypt is identical to European countries.

    Nonie Darwish, an Egyptian woman who lives in the US now, tells the truth about the sharia and the war against Israe.
    She can't return to Egypt, because if she does, any Egyptian can kill her and be rewarded for it.

    do you realize how backward Egypt is?
    To kill a person just because they expressed their opinion?

    In the Hellenistic Egypt nobody would have been killed if they had criticized the pagan religion.Or Zeus, Or Ra, Or Horus

     
  17. Pastek

    Pastek Sunni muslim

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    No i'm not saying that. I know that egyptians have a lot of problems.
    There's is corruption (well, everywhere even in europe), many people are poor or illiterate ... Many things must be changed, unfortunatelly the regime of Mubarak didn't do anything for egyptians since all those years exept for himself. But this is not the fault of Islam.
    I agree that a person shouldn't be killed for apostasy because nowhere in the Quran it says so. It's true that there must be a debate concerning many issues.

    But i'm not ok when you say how women should dress and judging them by their clothes. Or saying that Islam rejected "everything" from this or that culture. I don't like generalities and stereotypes.

    Which truth ?
    Egypt and many other arab countries did the war against Israel to help palestinians as we considere they were colonised.
    The fact that she has grows up hating Israel is possible as they were considerated at that time as enemies to all arabs because of Palestine.

    I agree with her though on the fact that many people (politics, religious etc) try to manipulate the muslim opinion by saying it's always the fault of Israel (and america).
    Sometimes they don't face the problems and blame others without real proofs and use the sympathy for palestianians for their own benefits.
    So that way they block everything.

    And to finish she also said many false things, like the fact that the prophet Muhammad ask to his followers before he dies that they should kill all the jews.
    Of course, everyone who knows a little bit the history of the expension of Islam have seen that muslims conquired many countries till Spain but they didn't kill the jews.
    So there's some things that she said who are completly false, and i believe she did it on purpose.
     
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  18. Estro Felino

    Estro Felino Believer in free will
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    well...then the Hadiths must be false. Because a Hadith says:
    Bukhari (52:177) - Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him."

    by the way...let's talk about the present: I really appreciate that in the other thread you agreed with me when you said that Islam needs to be reformed. It needs to be reformed for the sake of true Muslims like you and to clear the good name of Islam.
    That's why you shouldn't be afraid of saying that you want to take a position in the name of your religion.

    I've several Muslim friends. All coming from Africa, and they are wonderful people. One of them is black and married one of my best female friends,.
    Don't you think that I don't suffer when I hear generalizations about Muslims on American TV ?
    That's why I want imams to reform the religion through the cooperation with other religions.
    By showing mixed marriages and so on. By showing what peaceful Muslims do
     
    #18 Estro Felino, Nov 29, 2014
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2014
  19. Flankerl

    Flankerl Well-Known Member

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    So while i present normal women as an example you use ancient Prostitutes and Escorts.
    Wow.
    Did you even read the less flattering parts about Prostitution in ancient Greece?

    Also how do you like the fact that apart from Sparta where a woman actually may have become somewhat influential this was completely out of the question in the city states? You know the places where your beloved Democracy resided.
    There they weren't even full citizens. Contrary to evil Rome btw.
     
  20. Pastek

    Pastek Sunni muslim

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    This hadith for what i know is supposed to be authentic.
    This may talks about those actual days (israeli-palestinian conflict) or probably for the end of time.
    Which can be explaned by the fact that muslims wait for Jesus as the Messiah (as in Quran it says Jesus will be a sign of the "Hour") while the jews will follow the false Messiah (Anti-christ) as they don't believe in the Anti-Christ.
    This hadith certainly not allowed us to kill them as it will be contradicting the Quran itself.

    The prophet Muhammad didn't ask his followers to kill anyone before he died, here is his last sermon to muslims : IslamiCity.com - Mosque - The Prophet Muhammad's (PBUH) Last Sermon

    Or in video here :

    Many have engaged the debate since quite a long time now, at least in the west.
    For exemple Malek Chebel who used to be in the show "The Children of Abraham" with a rabbi and a priest debating about many subjects like homosexuality, extremism etc.
    Abdennour Bidar (a soufi) debating on radio, tv shows about reforming Islam, there's also Tariq Ramadan and some others that i saw in american channels (but in uk they like to invite extremists instead).
    Maybe in your own country some also tried to engage the debate.

    A country like Egypt is under a dictatorship, they can't criticize many things.
    The reform can come only if people can debate freely.

    A famous egyptian actor did since the 80' a play mocking the dictatorship wich is very famous and still on many arab tv chanels :



    He also made a movie about the danger of extremism (film "The terrorist") i think a movie from the 80' too.
    Here in egyptian dialect :

    So those problems unfortunately were not really debated by religious people.
    Like most of time changes come first from the philosophers, writters, actors etc ... so maybe the Imam will follow soon.
     
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