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Hell

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by Green Gaia, Sep 19, 2004.

  1. No*s

    No*s Captain Obvious

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    OK, thanks.
     
  2. Ernestine

    Ernestine Member

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    Hell is not the fiery place of torment that many are taught that it is. Hell is another word for Hades and it refers to a place of inactivity. Hell is mankind's common grave. When a person dies, they go to hell, to their grave--no more, no less. When Job was suffering he prayed to go there (Job 14:13) so that he could escape the pain he was in. The "fire" that the Bible refers to is not hell. Fire represents total annihilation--a cutting off in death forever. Wicked, unrepentant persons are destroyed forever as if by fire.
     
  3. precept

    precept Member

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    Not so! "Ernestine"...according to you? Maybe! But Certainly Not according to scripture!

    Matthew 10:28 Jesus said ...."And fear not them which kill the body but are not able to kill the soul: But rather fear Him which is able to destroy both soul and body in HELL!"

    And Jesus also said....Revelation 19:20...."And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the Mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast "ALIVE" into a lake of fire burning with brimstone".

    Revelation 20:13,14.....Jesus also said...."And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and "death and hell" delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged everyman according to their works. And death and hell were cast INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE . This is the second death!

    Your's is but wishful thinking "Ernestine"....Not truth!


    precept
     
  4. may

    may Well-Known Member

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    "And​
    I saw the wild beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage the war with the one seated on the horse and with his army. And the wild beast was caught, and along with it the false prophet that performed in front of it the signs with which he misled those who received the mark of the wild beast and those who render worship to its image. While still alive, they both were hurled into the fiery lake that burns with sulphur. But the rest were killed off with the long sword of the one seated on the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth. And all the birds were filled from the fleshy parts of them."—Revelation 19:19-21.





    After the pouring out of the sixth bowl of Jehovah’s wrath, John reported that "the kings of the earth and of the whole world" were gathered by demonic propaganda to "the battle of that great day of God Almighty." This is fought at Armageddon—not a literal location, but the global situation that calls for the execution of Jehovah’s judgment. (Revelation 16:12, 14, 16, King James Version) Now John sees the battle lines. There, ranged against God, are all "the kings of the earth and their armies." They have stubbornly refused to submit themselves to Jehovah’s King. He gave them fair warning in the inspired message: "Kiss the son, that [Jehovah] may not become incensed and you may not perish from the way." Not having submitted to Christ’s rule, they must die.—Psalm 2:12.​

    The seven-headed, ten-horned wild beast out of the sea, representing Satan’s political organization, is tumbled into oblivion, and along with it goes the false prophet, the seventh world power. (Revelation 13:1, 11-13; 16:13) While still "alive," or still functioning in their united opposition to God’s people on earth, they are cast into "the lake of fire." Is this a literal lake of fire? No, not any more than the wild beast and the false prophet are literal animals. Rather, it is a symbol of complete, final destruction, a place of no return. Here is where, later, death and Hades, as well as the Devil himself, will be hurled. (Revelation 20:10, 14) It is certainly not an inferno of eternal torture for the wicked, since the very idea of such a place is detestable to Jehovah.—Jeremiah 19:5; 32:35; 1 John 4:8, 16.​

    All others who were not directly part of government but who were nevertheless an irreformable part of this corrupt world of mankind are likewise "killed off with the long sword of the one seated on the horse." Jesus will pronounce them deserving of death. Since in their case the lake of fire is not mentioned, are we to expect that they will have a resurrection? Nowhere are we told that those executed by Jehovah’s Judge at that time are to be resurrected. As Jesus himself stated, all those who are not "sheep" go off "into the everlasting fire prepared for the Devil and his angels," that is, "into everlasting cutting-off." (Matthew 25:33, 41, 46) This climaxes "the day of judgment and of destruction of the ungodly men."—2 Peter 3:7; Nahum 1:2, 7-9; Malachi 4:1.​

    In this way, all of Satan’s earthly organization comes to an end. The "former heaven" of political rulership has passed away. The "earth," the seemingly permanent system that Satan has built up over the centuries, is now utterly destroyed. The "sea," the mass of wicked humanity opposed to Jehovah, is no more. (Revelation 21:1; 2 Peter 3:10)

     
  5. Ronald

    Ronald Well-Known Member

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    Except for treasure in heaven. (gemilus chessed) "Wisdom in the Hebrew Alphabet" By Michael Munk. :)
     
  6. t3gah

    t3gah Well-Known Member

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    Funk & Wagnalls
    New Comprehensive International Dictionary of the English Language
    *Encyclopedic Edition*

    hell n. In ancient times, the place of the departed spirits: Called by the Greeks Hades, by the Hebrews Sheol, by the Scandinavians Hel. [OLD ENGLISH hel]
    sheol n. Hell. [<Hebrew she'ol cave < sha'al dig]

    hades The kingdom over which Pluto rules, the abode of the dead. See TARTARUS, ORCUS. Colloq. A euphemism for HELL. [<Gk. Haides <a-not + idein seen]

    ----
    As you can see by the definitions if hell is for departed spirits and sheol is the same in Hebrew then why does the breakdown of the Hebrew term for sheol mean "cave"? And haides means "not seen" not a place.

    You have to look at the Hebrew text in the scriptures and not someone else's translation for this answer since sheol is there for Job. And the Greek text for hades.

    Sheol is where Yeshua was placed after he died. A cave. The burial places that the Jews had in Israel.

    _____________________________________
    Look at the sources and not the translations
     
  7. Greyprophet

    Greyprophet Member

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    God is Love.

    God is planning to wipe away all tears. God is casting pain, suffering, death and self-centerness into the Fire (meaning to get rid off). So simple, yet so hard to understand is it?

    God is LOVE.
     
  8. may

    may Well-Known Member

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    Yes just as revelation says at (rev 21;3-4)
    With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: "Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his peoples. And God himself will be with them. And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away."

     
  9. firstsamuel

    firstsamuel New Member

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    Probably an in depth study of 'hell' in the bible will clear up your questions. Study particularly the actual word that is translated as Hell and notice that the same word is also translated as death. The Hebrew word is 'sheol' ( Old Testament), the New Testament words are 'gehenna' and 'hades'. But, if you are less inclined to study, you can dissect John 3:16 and find out what will happen to you when you die. "...should not 'perish' but have everlasting life". It seems reasonable that the Jews of that time taught a resurrection after death and not the immortality of the soul. Another thought is: why didn't Lazarus, who had been dead 4 days, not say anything about what happens when you die? Could have been because there was nothing to say. And the Lord, in speaking of his death, didn't say Lazarus is in Heaven but that Lazarus was sleeping. Intrigued yet? How about the 'lake of fire' being described as the second 'death'? Some people stumble at this idea when they read in the scriptures: " fear not those that can kill the body, but fear him which is able to 'destroy' both soul and body in hellfire". You did notice that it says to fear Him that can DESTROY both body and soul? Just a little fodder for your discussion and information. Btw, there are many Christian religions that do not believe in a literal hell and use the scriptures to support an unbreakeable doctrine of such (I'm not a Jehovah's Witness). Heaven is another subject that this doctrine includes. If hell is not what we thought, then Heaven probably isn't either. The New Testament says that we are (already) seated in heavenly places (if, indeed, we are). And it speaks of a 'first' heaven and a 'third' heaven. One, two, three. There has to also be a second then. The angels in the Revelation fell from heaven. Which one do you think they fell from? Oh, the questions this subject fosters. Are you confused yet?
    The common idea about hell just doesn't at all seem just or fair. To burn someone 'forever' for the sinful life they lived that amounted to only a few years? How can that be attributed to a God who is righteous and just and fair? What if you took a dog or a cat and held a public 'pet' burning? Even if you said that it was a bad pet and deserved to die a horrible painful death, would anyone in their right mind allow you to be so cruel? Then, why would we put God in the position to do what we ourselves would find intolerably cruel?
     
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  10. dan

    dan Well-Known Member

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    Hell is literally defined as "the place of the dead." Yes there is a Hell. Extra-scripturally it seems the question would not come up, as the notion is introduced therein. Many people have had experiences that strengthen their faith, but those experiences can be cast upon the entire spectrum of religious belief. They are not consistent enough to derive any one conclusion.
     
  11. robtex

    robtex Veteran Member

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    Where is it ? How can you say this place exists when not one person has ever seen it? Please provide a theory as to where it is and how to get there geographically speaking.
     
  12. jewscout

    jewscout Religious Zionist

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    except goodjewishboy is right on this one...though there is stuff on the afterlife, especially in jewish mysticism, you're not really supposed to worry about it.
     
  13. dan

    dan Well-Known Member

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    It's easy; all you have to do is die.

    I know that answer isn't satisfactory, but you're demanding something kind of ridiculous. From an objective standpoint, the dead go somewhere. We live because of some elusive energy that gives us the spark of life. Energy can neither be created nor destroyed, so when that energy goes out, where does it go? It can't always escape as heat or be released in another form. It goes somewhere. I've never been to Hell, and I don't know what interstate takes you there, but it exists, as people die and Hell is the realm of the dead.
     
  14. robtex

    robtex Veteran Member

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    Dan real quick here is a summary of what you just said:

    premise
    1) all people die
    2) energy can neither be created or destroyed
    3) humans have an essance (soul) made up of energy
    4) upon death peoples essence go somewhere (essence soul whatever) [as it cannot be created or destroyed]

    conclusion
    1) therefore there is a hell

    Can you please insert a few more premises before getting to the conclusion?
     
  15. dan

    dan Well-Known Member

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    Well, I defined Hell very broadly, so anyplace other than animating the body would count as Hell. If something exists after death, that something resides in Hell, as Hell is defined literally as the place of the dead. It's a broad conclusion, but the word Hell has a broad definition.

    The only real question is whether or not something exists after death, and I have yet to hear of an experiment which proves one way or another the existence of a soul. I rest on my conclusion (in the context of this debate) until someone provides me proof otherwise.
     
  16. robtex

    robtex Veteran Member

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    Dan when your premise is your conclusion that is circular reasoning. For instance if I told you a dog can swim because dogs are able to swim I am using circular reasoning to present my arguement. It doesn't mean that dogs cannot swim or that they can but with the above statement I have done nothing to conclude that dogs can swim other than state it. If I said the sky is in the air because the air is in the sky I again used circular reasoning in that I stated a premise and conclusion that are the same but worded differently. When you say, "If something exsits afer death that something resides in hell as hell is defined literally as the place of the dead." you are using circular reasoning in that your conclusion is the same as your premise just with different words used.

    You cant rest a conclusion until you build premises that lead to it. Hell exists cause that is where the dead go is not logical sequence. I say hell does not exist because since the existance of man nobody has ever been assessed as going there...no body has come back from there and nobody knows where it is. It has no georghaphical location ....it has no defined amount of space or even moderate speculation of it.

    It has never been viewed by any telescope never been uncovered by any geologists and has never had a valid theory that suggests it exists.
     
  17. dan

    dan Well-Known Member

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    Ths is my argument in the form of a dialogue:

    "Does Hell exist?"
    "Well, what do you mean by Hell?"
    "How do you define it?"
    "It is defined as the place of the dead."
    "O.K., so does that place exist?"
    "If the dead continue to exist in some form or another then they must reside somewhere. If they reside somewhere it falls under the definition of Hell, or 'were the dead reside.' So the real question is whether or not the dead exist in some form or another. If they do then Hell exists."

    If you accuse me of circular reasoning then you can only do it under the premise that no definition of Hell is acceptable since it cannot be proven to exist, and then your own argument goes around in circles. My argument is completely sound.
     
  18. robtex

    robtex Veteran Member

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    ad hominem is where you attack the attack instead of the arguement. You have not addressed my arguement nor defended your own. Instead you throw out some silly arguement with yourself in the form of a diaglogue and than accuse me of circular reasoning without point out where it is. Do you have a set of premises that lead to the conclusion of hell or not? Nobody, including me, has argueed your defintion at all. But you keep saying that they do. This is called a strawman arugment by the way. Where you construct a seperate arrguement that does not exist and attack that instead. Now back to the location of hell........
     
  19. Doodlebug02

    Doodlebug02 Active Member

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    Personally, I have a very hard time believing in Hell. If it does exist, it's probably only for Satan (if he exists) and his demons (if they exist). As you can see, I also doubt the existance of Satan and his demons. I feel that if Satan does exist, he is probably just a metaphor for the evil that humans are capable of. Demons are probably just like all the other spirits if they exist. I am generally quite Agnostic in my beliefs. I do believe in a higher power but I'm not exactly sure what I believe about that higher power.
     
  20. Ronald

    Ronald Well-Known Member

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    Yes! It is Sheol/OT--- Grave.
    Where dead bodies are burried.
    A hole in the ground, 6'X3'X6'.
    Dead Bodies.
    Yes. In grave yards.
    NO IMMORTAL SOUL. The dead body returns to dust as it was.

    People who are only exposed to the Bible from the back of the book come away with this idea of Greek origin of an immortal soul and thus hell the holding pen for lost souls.

    When you are dead, you are dead, the dead are raised up on the day of the Lord, if you are not dead, you can't be raised up from the dead!
    1Co 15:17 If Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins.

    :162:
     
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