1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Hell

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by Green Gaia, Sep 19, 2004.

  1. roli

    roli Born Again,Spirit Filled

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2004
    Messages:
    1,881
    Ratings:
    +103
    Why would anyone who potentially qualifies to go to such a place , according to the christian views and beliefs, want to admit hell exists, or even discuss the issue, on the contrary I use to deny it existed in my mind and quite vehemently argued against it's existence, because I knew in my heart it could be a literal place.
    Sarcasm and philosophical ridicual was my means in which to avoid the subject.
    For I heard it said" earth is the closest to hell a true born again christian will ever get and earth is the closest to heaven a non christian( never believed and received Christ as savior and lord of there life) will ever get to Heaven
    Philosophical and intellectual debates ,concepts and opinions of hell, will not really change hells existence and purpose when these eyes close to this life, if in fact it does exist at all

    Roli
     
  2. DrM

    DrM Member

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2004
    Messages:
    111
    Ratings:
    +16
    On the very practical side of this question. . . . . . .Without satan and hell, there would be no reason for God, Jesus, Holy Spirit. Afterall the battle is good against evil. One must have the other to exist.
     
  3. cardero

    cardero Citizen Mod

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2004
    Messages:
    11,101
    Ratings:
    +1,665
    Not in the sense that religions depict this "battle". GOD can exist without conflicts and does. There are no doubts, there are no contests, there is no drama, there is no issue of Universal Soverignty that GOD must PROVE to himself or us. When you bring in the certainty of Hell you take away from GOD's Unconditional LOVE. Either we have freewill or we do not. You can't believe in HELL and have your barbecue too.
     
  4. DrM

    DrM Member

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2004
    Messages:
    111
    Ratings:
    +16
    Sorry, I should have said, "Christians, without satan and hell, there would be no reason for God, Jesus, Holy Spirit. Afterall the battle is good against evil. One must have the other to exist ."
     
  5. chickenrun

    chickenrun New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2004
    Messages:
    4
    Ratings:
    +0
    [COLOR=DarkOrange]Wasn´t the Pope of Rome who said that that there is no hell ?. I dare believe that hell is on Earth, isn´t it ?.
     
  6. DrM

    DrM Member

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2004
    Messages:
    111
    Ratings:
    +16
    I'm not sure what the Pope said but hell is on earth for sure!! Welcome to the forum!!
     
  7. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2004
    Messages:
    8,303
    Ratings:
    +953
    No.... the Pope did not say that.
     
  8. Ernestine

    Ernestine Member

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2004
    Messages:
    124
    Ratings:
    +11
    Hell is not a literal place of fiery torment. Job prayed to go there to escape his pain. Hell is the common grave of man. The Bible tells us that Jesus was raised from his grave (or hell).
     
  9. Green Gaia

    Green Gaia Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2004
    Messages:
    19,775
    Ratings:
    +1,920
    Then where do those who are not of the 144,000 go after death?
     
  10. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2004
    Messages:
    8,446
    Ratings:
    +1,969
    Religion:
    Øneness
    When i died hell wasnt as many presume and evil
    It was EGO as heaven is oneness and hell is ego oppisites
    The ego of having your life flash before your eyes as you die kept a lot of people down there blaming others for there mistakes as christ said with what judgement will be your own judgement
    Another way to explain it is that the whole universe exsist as quarks the lower dimensions are single line quarks or 'I'
    As the spirit learns more and imbraces love it assends in to high levels of dimensional frequency so making the quarks become more bouncy
    The more bounce these strands of spirit have the more wisdom and knowledge they contain
    Its like christ said the more wisdom you learn the more you will shine in heaven
    In heaven the quarks or spirits had become radient balls of light what many see as angels
    So yes hell does exsist the high your dimensional frequency the more contol you have over the quarks that exsist below you
    So hell or the lower levels of exsistence makes up solid objects within the universe and the more you accept oneness the more control you have over the physical
     
  11. jewscout

    jewscout Religious Zionist

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2004
    Messages:
    9,486
    Ratings:
    +922
    I don't believe that hell exists in the traditional christian sense as a place for everlasting torment. I think hell is sorta like going to detention or time out. We are all gonna screw up in our lives we can't help it, we're human. In order to reach the purity we need to gain admitance into the "World to Come" (whatever the duece that means) we need to be cleansed and this is what hell is for. But really there's little in Judaism about the afterlife and i think standing_on_one_foot already pointed that out.
     
  12. KingsKnight

    KingsKnight New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2004
    Messages:
    1
    Ratings:
    +1
    Jesus himself told us all about this place Luke 16:19 to 31

    Most people scoff tthis off as a parable!

    But alas parables do not contain proper names as this account by Jesus does in fact name one person in this account of hell and paradise

    While using other sources in Scriptures we know these 2 places disscussed by Jesus are temperory holding placesb ut these two places will be emptied at the 2nd coming and the last resurrection of the Great white throne judgement for the lost.

    first off we see judgement is instant at death as the lost are seperated from the saved.
    Jesus only listed 2 possible destination and no option for a 3rd (purgatory) so we can dismiss Purgatory as a pagan myth incorperated by the Catholic church who is derived from pagan/christian roots of Constantine a pagan
     
    • Like Like x 1
  13. Mister Emu

    Mister Emu Emu Extraordinaire
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2004
    Messages:
    11,799
    Ratings:
    +2,041
    Religion:
    Christian
    KingsKnight,

    What is an I F Baptist?
     
  14. true blood

    true blood Active Member

    Joined:
    May 10, 2004
    Messages:
    848
    Ratings:
    +36
    Right on. The simple truth.
     
  15. Mister Emu

    Mister Emu Emu Extraordinaire
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2004
    Messages:
    11,799
    Ratings:
    +2,041
    Religion:
    Christian
    True the word hell might not be the word, but there is a lake of fire, it is talked about mulitple times in the NT.
     
  16. David

    David Member

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2004
    Messages:
    20
    Ratings:
    +3
    It doesn't say in the bible that the wage of sin is hell. It says thee wage of sin is death. It would seem as if the concept of hell and an immortal soul go hand in hand.
     
  17. Ronald

    Ronald Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2004
    Messages:
    1,392
    Ratings:
    +51
    Oh My! another thread on Hell! And then we mention Heaven and Mansions. I personally wonder how these concepts came into Christianity. There isn't any verse or paragraph that says anyone goes to heaven, lots of inuendoes, but no direct statement, "you shall go to heaven" or "you will enter heaven when you die"

    As for hell, just which hell are you talking about? Hades/grave, Gehenna/garbage dump or Tartaroo/lake of fire? And there was no mention of Y H V H koshering the old earth making way for the new earth. 2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

    Then the mansions, Joh 14:2 "In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
    How do we presume that this is in heaven? How do we ignore Joh 3:13 No one has ascended into heaven but he who descended from heaven, the Son of man.??? Yeshua/Jesus>>>---------------->
    Joh 6:38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me;

    Weavers of pipe dreams have decieved many with their webs of deceict.
    No one receives his immortal body untill he is granted eternal life and is raised from the dead at the last trump.

    When the Messianic age is over (1000 yrs) comes judgement and the separation of the sheep from the goats, then death and hell/grave will be cast in the lake of fire, the earth is koshered and the new earth is created. (It is not said where those who are the chosen out of the judgement will spend the moments it takes God to create the new heavens and new earth, six days thre first time.)
    You could assume we go to heaven or the bosoom of Abraham, maybe Pardes or purgutory, your guess is as good as mine. :)

     
  18. No*s

    No*s Captain Obvious

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2004
    Messages:
    5,917
    Ratings:
    +471
    Since everyone is talking about different views of Hell, here's one that hasn't been posted. I don't believe that Hell is a place, but I do believe in an eternal Hell. So, to put all my cards up front, I'll state bluntly that God is Hell.

    Basically, God is fire. He is described repeatedly as such in the Scriptures. Likewise, there is no reason to be absolutely literal in the Scriptures. I don't believe Satan is a great dragon flying in the heavens, that death is a person, nor do I believe that Hell is a Lake of Fire or a burning garbage dump.

    When God warned Adam, He told Him that the day he sinned, he would die. We all know that Adam sinned, and that he lived past that day physically. The spiritual death he had, though, forced him to be driven from the Garden (and yes, there's lots of symbolism and allegory here). Why is this? So that he wouldn't eat from the Tree of Life and live forever.

    This Tree of Life is one and the same as the True Vine. Had they "eaten" this (it is metaphorical), they would have lived forever, but without any option for the salvific effects of Christ's sacrifice. Everyone is resurrected, and Adam was not ready for that resurrection.

    Man could no longer live with God, and God's name may be taken to mean "The One Who Is." God is what He is. When Adam changed His relationship with God, He changed it from Paradise to something terrible. For that reason, Adam feared God. He hid from God.

    In Christ, God became man, and now we may become participants in the divine nature (II Peter 1.4). This reality is taught blatantly in St. John. Christ said that He was the True Vine. The Church is built upon that. From Her, individuals branch out and become extensions of Him.

    Christian itself means "little christ." In John 10.34-35, Christ uses the very fact that we are to be little christs to defend His claim to divinity. He said: "Is it not written in your law, `I said ``You are gods?''' If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, `You are blaspheming,' because I said, `I am the Son of God?'"

    The Roman Catholic theologian Thomas Acquinas taught that we are as iron. In the outside world, we are dull. However, when we are placed in the fire (God), we shine like the heavens. Taken out of the fire, the iron again becomes dull. So it is with us. We can never be as God is, but God can live in us and restore us. If we are separated, we again become dull.

    In this way, we can understand the Lake of Fire. The Greek word for Sulphur is "theion." It also translates as "divine" or "divinity." The "Lake of Fire and Brimstone" could well be the "Lake of Fire and Divinity." God is Hell. God is Heaven. The very word, "parousia," used in Jesus' "Second Coming" could also be "appearance," so it could be Jesus' "Second Appearance" or "Manifestation." God is revealed in His fullness to the universe, and there is nowhere to hide.

    So, I don't believe Hell is a place. It is the presence of God. God is not a sadistic monster that likes to throw people into a dungeon with varying levels to be poked, prodded, burnt, and other such things. God just is Who He is. What we made ourselves, though, is another matter.
     
  19. may

    may Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2004
    Messages:
    3,665
    Ratings:
    +110
    SHEOL​
    AND HADES

    Webster’s Dictionary says that the English word "hell" is equal to the Hebrew word Sheol and the Greek word Hades.
    The question is: What kind of place is Sheol, or Hades? The fact that the King James Version translates the one Hebrew word Sheol three different ways shows that hell, grave and pit mean one and the same thing. And if hell means the common grave of mankind, it could not at the same time mean a place of fiery torture. Well, then, do Sheol and Hades mean the grave, or do they mean a place of torture?
    the Hebrew word Sheol and the Greek word Hades mean the same thing. This is shown by looking at Psalm 16:10 in the Hebrew Scriptures and Acts 2:31 in the Christian Greek Scriptures, . Notice that in quoting from Psalm 16:10 where Sheol occurs, Acts 2:31 uses Hades. Notice, too, that Jesus Christ was in Hades, or hell. Are we to believe that God tormented Christ in a hell of fire? Of course not! Jesus was simply in his grave
    Yes, good people go to the Bible hell. For example, the good man Job, who was suffering a great deal, prayed to God: "O that in Sheol [grave, King James Version; hell, Douay Version] you would conceal me, . . . that you would set a time limit for me and remember me!" (Job 14:13) Now think: If Sheol means a place of fire and torment, would Job wish to go and spend his time there until God remembered him? Clearly, Job wanted to die and go to the grave that his sufferings might end.
    In all the places where Sheol occurs in the Bible it is never associated with life, activity or torment. Rather, it is often linked with death and inactivity. For example, think about Ecclesiastes 9:10, which reads: "All that your hand finds to do, do with your very power, for there is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in Sheol [grave, King James Version; hell, Douay Version], the place to which you are going." So the answer becomes very clear. Sheol and Hades refer not to a place of torment but to the common grave of mankind. (Psalm 139:8) Good people as well as bad people go to the Bible hell

     
    • Like Like x 1
  20. No*s

    No*s Captain Obvious

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2004
    Messages:
    5,917
    Ratings:
    +471
    May,

    What I can say is that if you really want to get a good idea of what Hades connotes in Greek, then the New Testament is the very last place you should look. I would reccomend that you read book 11 of the Odyessy. What you read will be similar to what most Greeks would have thought of as "Hades." It's not torment, and it is a pagan understanding, but however you interpret the word after reading that, you can't take it to mean just a "long sleep" or "inactivity."

    If the authors had simply wanted to denote inactivity or the like, they would have used another word, taphos, which just means "grave" or "tomb." "Hades" is as loaded in Ancient Greek as "Hell" is in English. It simply cannot be used that neutrally.

    It is telling that "Hades" translates "Sheol." Look at Ps. 139.8 in light of Hades, and it can't mean a sleep. If you read the other references you sighted you'll see that a numb, shadowy, and indistinct existence fits quite well in each one. It is better than what Job was going through. It isn't torment. It's a good allegory for the belly of a fish, and people really don't know much in that state. It also harmonizes with a place or state God can be present with someone in.

    There is also a related Greek word used in II Pet. 2.4. It actually says that God cast the angels into Tartarus. Tartarus was the Greek equivalent of Hell, unlike Hades which has no real English equivalent. Google for "Tartarus" and "Greek Mythology," and you'll get a bunch of references.

    Couple that verse, with Jesus' use of Gehenna (the fire never goes out), Revelation's lake of fire (where the smoke of torment goes up forever), and the parable concerning the rich man and Lazarus, and you have a pretty convincing array of instances where the Bible teaches torment of some kind.

    How you assemble those things is up to you. You may come to a conclusion like me, there is the "God has a place set apart for torture" routine, and there are other ways of dealing with the words. A "long sleep" isn't a very sound one. It certainly can't mean "annihilation," which is what the article you're quoting from is teaching if I remember correctly (Watchtower article).

    I'm normally quite wordy, but we all know what day this is...
     
Loading...