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Hell versus Everlasting Fire

KerimF

Active Member
The principles, standards, and procedures of science, over time and in the long run, overcome these obstacles in the pursuit of the understanding of reality. Religion is not in the pursuit of understanding reality. The goal of religion is to indoctrinate and spread the tenets of the religion, regardless of the veracity of religious claims and assertions.

There is nothing wrong in what you say.
It just happens that you focus on the word 'science' while I focus on the representatives of science (usually, the news refers to them by saying: Scientists say this or that...) and their followers who are ready to believe them fully even if many of them have no way to verify if what they are supposed to believe is true or not.
Naturally, I have to expect somehow the same sorts of reaction from the 'ordinary' believers in science and their 'counterparts' in religion; despite the big difference between science and religion.

So let me see your reaction :) if we agree to analyze what was introduced as a natural disease (if not a pandemic) and known universally as 'AIDS'. Obviously, all stories about it were made in the name of medicine (an important scientific branch). Also, all doctors in medicine around the world didn't point out, openly in the least, anything wrong in its stories which were also approved by 'all' ruling systems on earth. And, the international news didn't miss presenting many detailed cases of AIDS victims for many years. Therefore, I was supposed to believe that the possibility to discover the hidden truths behind the well known stories of AIDS had to be close to zero, if not a big zero. But all that events didn't prevent me having the chance to know these hidden truths which are not supposed to be heard by the multitudes in any country, even in these days.
Please note that since analyzing this topic is one of taboos of the highest level, we will stop talking about it at the first point that you disagree with or you cannot have any idea about.

Did you hear of the common main reason for which 'all' operations of transplanting live organs failed in the 70's and before?
 
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KerimF

Active Member
As a last observation, you are clearly not a neutral observer because you need or want there to be a realm outside of reality that is immune from the scrutiny of science. A truly neutral observer is indifferent to the outcome of an investigation or inquiry. You are not indifferent as you express a desire or goal.

I didn't know that I have a desire or goal in this world.
I just can't see myself like cheep among cheep that are driven by a kind of Elite or driven by their instincts of survival. Fortunately, the great majority in the world is not like me, otherwise the world couldn't run properly and I had no chance to exist temporarily in it.
 

MikeF

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
There is nothing wrong in what you say.
It just happens that you focus on the word 'science' while I focus on the representatives of science (usually, the news refers to them by saying: Scientists say this or that...) and their followers who are ready to believe them fully even if many of them have no way to verify if what they are supposed to believe is true or not.
Naturally, I have to expect somehow the same sorts of reaction from the 'ordinary' believers in science and their 'counterparts' in religion; despite the big difference between science and religion.
If the complaint is in how science is portrayed in the media and popular culture, then I am certainly in agreement that there are significant problems. And certainly, many people do not have a sufficient scientific background to provide them adequate skepticism when they read headlines on a scientific topic.

So let me see your reaction :) if we agree to analyze what was introduced as a natural disease (if not a pandemic) and known universally as 'AIDS'. Obviously, all stories about it were made in the name of medicine (an important scientific branch). Also, all doctors in medicine around the world didn't point out, openly in the least, anything wrong in its stories while they were also approved by 'all' ruling systems on earth. And, the international news didn't miss presenting many detailed cases of AIDS victims for many years. Therefore, I was supposed to believe that the possibility to discover the hidden truths behind the well known stories of AIDS had to be close to zero, if not a big zero. But all that events didn't prevent me having the chance to know these hidden truths which are not supposed to be heard by the multitudes in any country, even in these days.
Please note that since analyzing this topic is one of taboos of the highest level, we will stop talking about it at the first point that you disagree with or you cannot have any idea about.

Did you hear of the common main reason for which 'all' operations of transplanting live organs failed in the 70's and before?
Are you saying that AIDS is not what it has been described to be over these last 30 to 40 years? I don't mind discussing the scientific merits of a topic, as long as it is a scientific discussion and does not involve the imaginary.

As to organ transplantation, my assumption as to to the cause of significant transplant failures before the 1980's (I don't know whether this assertion is accurate or not, just accepting your premise for arguments sake) would be due to a lack of effective immuno-suppressive therapies to mitigate organ rejection by the recipient patient.
 

MikeF

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I didn't know that I have a desire or goal in this world.
I just can't see myself like cheep among cheep that are driven by a kind of Elite or driven by their instincts of survival. Fortunately, the great majority in the world is not like me, otherwise the world couldn't run properly and I had no chance to exist temporarily in it.
I was not commenting on your goals for living, rather, that it is apparent from this conversation that you want or need there to be another realm outside of reality, regardless of whether such a realm can be supported scientifically. Such an assertion is not a scientific claim yet you seem to want to insist that it falls within our collective body of scientific knowledge.
 

KerimF

Active Member
As to organ transplantation, my assumption as to to the cause of significant transplant failures before the 1980's (I don't know whether this assertion is accurate or not, just accepting your premise for arguments sake) would be due to a lack of effective immuno-suppressive therapies to mitigate organ rejection by the recipient patient.

This is what I heard from an American surgeon (on TV ). And he added that all surgeons in this field have agreed to stop this kind of operations till the medical research centers will find how to control the activity of the human body's immune system.

By the way, my father died in 1958 (I was 9) because he needed a live kidney. So, in my sub-conscious, I was always interested in hearing any news concerning such transplant.

So after hearing the American surgeon, I expected hearing someday about the medical discovery that lets the immune system of the patient accept the foreign organ(s), planted in his body, while it protects him from any sort of intruders.

I guess you know that transplanting live organs have the same risk now as of the ordinary operations.

Could you know how this became possible?
In other words, did you hear of a medical discovery that helped surgeons avoid their past failures?
 

MikeF

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
This is what I heard from an American surgeon (on TV ). And he added that all surgeons in this field have agreed to stop this kind of operations till the medical research centers will find how to control the activity of the human body's immune system.

By the way, my father died in 1958 (I was 9) because he needed a live kidney. So, in my sub-conscious, I was always interested in hearing any news concerning such transplant.

So after hearing the American surgeon, I expected hearing someday about the medical discovery that lets the immune system of the patient accept the foreign organ(s), planted in his body, while it protects him from any sort of intruders.

I guess you know that transplanting live organs have the same risk now as of the ordinary operations.

Could you know how this became possible?
In other words, did you hear of a medical discovery that helped surgeons avoid their past failures?
I think there are two main factors for the success of transplantation since the 1970's. First would be the use of effective immuno-suppressive drug therapies that help prevent the body from rejecting the donor organ. The second advancement was in performing donor matching, using blood type and human leukocyte antigen as markers for compatibility between the donor organ and the recipient. Both of these together greatly increase the possibility of long-term success.
 

KerimF

Active Member
I think there are two main factors for the success of transplantation since the 1970's. First would be the use of effective immuno-suppressive drug therapies that help prevent the body from rejecting the donor organ. The second advancement was in performing donor matching, using blood type and human leukocyte antigen as markers for compatibility between the donor organ and the recipient. Both of these together greatly increase the possibility of long-term success.

You are totally right.
But, even in the 70's, patients lived many days, if not weeks or months, after being operated and before their new organs started deteriorating and stop functioning. I mean; the second advancement was known to a good extent already.
Therefore, the crucial advancement was the discovery of what is known as 'effective immuno-suppressive drug therapies'.

A quick search gives:
"Immunosuppressant drugs can block the effects of the body's natural defenses. They usually allow your body to live in relative harmony with a donor organ. The catch is that by blocking your defenses, you become more vulnerable to infections."

Do you think that the operated patients, in order to survive by living in relative harmony with a donor organ, have to keep using such 'Immunosuppressant drugs' and let their body be vulnerable to infections during the rest of their life?
 
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rational experiences

Veteran Member
A human is only a human as a human equal in life

Once in the past chosen multi times science irradiated us again saying we deserve it. Remember a story is taught told by just a human.

Greedy elite lying science inhumanity irradiating life says as the human you deserve it consciously. Every day. Agree. Study. See. Want.

Yet they are the evil minded human and no one stops them from their conscious aware theme. You deserve it brother and sister.

As he pretends in science to be God as he uses changes God stone products.

It's all in his head.

So a rational human says don't you use the same equal atmospheric status as my attacked life?

When he died screaming UFO sun mass amount conjured was when he told himself he was wrong. The too late moment. Memories recorded human heard screaming recorded past.

So prophetic science reasoning was forewarning learnt as human advice which he ignored as the destroyer human psyche. Because of the too late moment.

Proven by what destructive machines bombs he builds. Still ignored that his conscious self did it.

Believes in it.
Knows causes.
Witnessed causes inhumane agonising deaths by God blasts of God materials earth...and says you deserve it human self as if he is a God.

Says the product reaction owned by God changes by increased radiation presence. Conjured it. Otherwise radiation which he never personally owned in science would not have activated first cause.

Change.

Never owning radiation yet knowing extra radiation causes conversion he says to react you need extra radiation. Yet the reaction is first with God not machine.

What a human science liar is against holy God life.
 

KerimF

Active Member
A human is only a human as a human equal in life

Once in the past chosen multi times science irradiated us again saying we deserve it. Remember a story is taught told by just a human.

Greedy elite lying science inhumanity irradiating life says as the human you deserve it consciously. Every day. Agree. Study. See. Want.

Yet they are the evil minded human and no one stops them from their conscious aware theme. You deserve it brother and sister.

As he pretends in science to be God as he uses changes God stone products.

It's all in his head.

So a rational human says don't you use the same equal atmospheric status as my attacked life?

When he died screaming UFO sun mass amount conjured was when he told himself he was wrong. The too late moment. Memories recorded human heard screaming recorded past.

So prophetic science reasoning was forewarning learnt as human advice which he ignored as the destroyer human psyche. Because of the too late moment.

Proven by what destructive machines bombs he builds. Still ignored that his conscious self did it.

Believes in it.
Knows causes.
Witnessed causes inhumane agonising deaths by God blasts of God materials earth...and says you deserve it human self as if he is a God.

Says the product reaction owned by God changes by increased radiation presence. Conjured it. Otherwise radiation which he never personally owned in science would not have activated first cause.

Change.

Never owning radiation yet knowing extra radiation causes conversion he says to react you need extra radiation. Yet the reaction is first with God not machine.

What a human science liar is against holy God life.

You likely disagree with me if I say that everything in life, seen as good or evil, has its importance to exist so that the world can run properly the way it is created. This is a vast branch of knowledge that most humans have no reason to be interested in.

For example, could we imagine a world without powerful empires or nations?
But for such an empire/nation to exist in every period of time, powerful deceivers and many followers who are ready to serve their dreams (directly or indirectly in exchange for a spoiled life) have to be created in the first place.

So in God's plan, humans should be created with different natures/characters. And it is impossible for a human to change his priorities in life for which he is created. So the only free will that a human may have is the ability to oppose or not his natural instincts of survival while dealing with others. Although rare people around the world were given this unexpected ability, nothing prevents a human to see himself a free being while he follows his instincts that guide him what to decide in every situation he may face.
 

MikeF

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
You are totally right.
But, even in the 70's, patients lived many days, if not weeks or months, after being operated and before their new organs started deteriorating and stop functioning. I mean; the second advancement was known to a good extent already.
Therefore, the crucial advancement was the discovery of what is known as 'effective immuno-suppressive drug therapies'.

A quick search gives:
"Immunosuppressant drugs can block the effects of the body's natural defenses. They usually allow your body to live in relative harmony with a donor organ. The catch is that by blocking your defenses, you become more vulnerable to infections."

Do you think that the operated patients, in order to survive by living in relative harmony with a donor organ, have to keep using such 'Immunosuppressant drugs' and let their body be vulnerable to infections during the rest of their life?
I don't know how long the drugs are required to avoid rejection of the organ. And there will always be a risk for greater illness from infection due to the suppression of the immune system.
 

KerimF

Active Member
I don't know how long the drugs are required to avoid rejection of the organ. And there will always be a risk for greater illness from infection due to the suppression of the immune system.

I am afraid that as long you can't know it from all sources you are allowed to access, it is of no use to go on because naturally you are not supposed to see me as a trusted source of info.

By the way, those who know the answer for sure are the operated patients and their professional surgeons who helped them extend their life.
 

MikeF

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I am afraid that as long you can't know it from all sources you are allowed to access, it is of no use to go on because naturally you are not supposed to see me as a trusted source of info.

By the way, those who know the answer for sure are the operated patients and their professional surgeons who helped them extend their life.
Who said anything about "can't" knowing? The fact that organ transplantation is not my field of expertise, and I do not know off the top of my head how long one is required to remain on immuno-suppressive therapy, does not mean that I can't know the answer. It doesn't mean I can't research the topic and learn the answer.

And how does my knowing anything about organ transplantation have anything to do with my opinion about your reliability as a source of information? Anyone who is an expert in organ transplantation is "naturally" "supposed to" see you as a trusted source of information? What kind of information? All information about anything or only a trusted source of information on organ transplantation? If I am already an expert in organ transplantation wouldn't it be immaterial as to whether I trusted you or not on that subject? I would already have the knowledge or access to the resources to independently verify or corroborate anything you might say. No trust would be required, correct?

Trust is developed, over time, by demonstrating long-term consistency in the accuracy of one's statements and actions.

Your irrational and illogical statements disqualify you as a trusted source of information. Wouldn't you agree?
 

KerimF

Active Member
Your irrational and illogical statements disqualify you as a trusted source of information. Wouldn't you agree?

Of course I agree with you; otherwise I wouldn't say "you are not supposed to see me as a trusted source of info.
You know; we cannot avoid the language barrier sometimes.

Who said anything about "can't" knowing?

It isn't me for sure!

I thought what I wrote you was clear:

"as long you can't know it from all sources you are allowed to access..."
I didn't say:
"since you can't know it from all sources you are allowed to access..."

I had no idea that 'as long' could be equivalent to 'since', sorry for any inconvenience.
 

MikeF

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Of course I agree with you; otherwise I wouldn't say "you are not supposed to see me as a trusted source of info.
You know; we cannot avoid the language barrier sometimes.



It isn't me for sure!

I thought what I wrote you was clear:

"as long you can't know it from all sources you are allowed to access..."
I didn't say:
"since you can't know it from all sources you are allowed to access..."

I had no idea that 'as long' could be equivalent to 'since', sorry for any inconvenience.
Perhaps it is a language barrier thing. But I fail to see how my not having a particular piece of information means that I am not supposed to trust what you say. Shouldn't I think critically about everything you say, and you think critically of my comments? Whatever you say about organ transplantation I can either accept on its face, or verify at my leisure. I fail to see why you can't simply make your point about AIDS (which I though was the original topic) and then I can evaluate and verify what you state if I think it necessary. And if I have questions or need clarification about your meaning, then I'll ask.
 

KerimF

Active Member
Perhaps it is a language barrier thing. But I fail to see how my not having a particular piece of information means that I am not supposed to trust what you say. Shouldn't I think critically about everything you say, and you think critically of my comments? Whatever you say about organ transplantation I can either accept on its face, or verify at my leisure. I fail to see why you can't simply make your point about AIDS (which I though was the original topic) and then I can evaluate and verify what you state if I think it necessary. And if I have questions or need clarification about your meaning, then I'll ask.

On my side, I believe that you have no reason at all to fool me (by saying things that you don't believe really). We are just two humans who met by chance and didn't mind sharing mutually what they may have in mind about certain things in life (their life).

I am real sorry because I can't explain to you now why I had to wrote you at the beginning:
"Please note that since analyzing this topic is one of taboos of the highest level, we will stop talking about it at the first point that you disagree with or you cannot have any idea about." (I meant... cannot have a sure idea about)

I guess you heard me say, perhaps more than once, that I used having no intention to convince anyone about anything. But this specific topic, besides being taboo for serious discussion, is supposed to be known universally almost fully and nothing real new could be added about it.
I thought that you may be interested to discover the hidden sad truths in its stories by yourself as I did.
Long ago, I asked myself the same questions that you hear from me now. By answering them, one after another, many new things became clear though they are not supposed to be heard by the world's multitudes at any cost.

We are just at the third question now. I hope you agree that there is no reason to be in a hurry for such an old subject.

Just to please a bit your curiosity, many years ago I had the chance to save some lives remotely (via internet) by advising them how to avoid being killed by AIDS (my advice had nothing to do with sex!).
 

MikeF

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
It's not about being in a hurry, it's about maintaining interest. I can not be patient for a long series of questions. Would much prefer you reveal your ultimate truth and we can discuss it.
 

KerimF

Active Member
It's not about being in a hurry, it's about maintaining interest. I can not be patient for a long series of questions. Would much prefer you reveal your ultimate truth and we can discuss it.

I wished you didn't have to add the adjective 'ultimate'. But I also understand that you have your good reasons for not being able to talk to me as a friend. After all, most mature humans end up believing that real friendship between two humans cannot exist really in the world's jungle.
Anyway, thank you for being patient for that long.
 

MikeF

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I wished you didn't have to add the adjective 'ultimate'. But I also understand that you have your good reasons for not being able to talk to me as a friend. After all, most mature humans end up believing that real friendship between two humans cannot exist really in the world's jungle.
Anyway, thank you for being patient for that long.
My sincere apologies if my word choice seemed unfriendly. It was not my intent.

In thinking about a possible relationship between organ transplant and AIDS, I am wondering if you are skeptical of the reported deadliness of AIDS. If we can suppress the immune system and people live long lives in that state, perhaps you are questioning whether a disease that attacks our immune system is as deadly as it is portrayed.

I must say, alluding to "hidden truths" and "things not to be heard at any cost" is not exactly friendly either. It is much better to be honest and open, and plainly and exactly state the "hidden truths" and "what cannot be heard at any cost".
 

KerimF

Active Member
My sincere apologies if my word choice seemed unfriendly. It was not my intent.

In thinking about a possible relationship between organ transplant and AIDS, I am wondering if you are skeptical of the reported deadliness of AIDS. If we can suppress the immune system and people live long lives in that state, perhaps you are questioning whether a disease that attacks our immune system is as deadly as it is portrayed.

I must say, alluding to "hidden truths" and "things not to be heard at any cost" is not exactly friendly either. It is much better to be honest and open, and plainly and exactly state the "hidden truths" and "what cannot be heard at any cost".

It was another language barrier. It happens in best families

If we analyze the answer of the third question attentively we will deduce the inverse of what you expected me to say (bold above).
Let us analyze its two possibilities:

[1] The patient has to keep using immunosuppressant drugs to live in relative harmony with the planted organ while his body is vulnerable to any infection during the rest of his life.
Speaking practically, every patient who got a donor organ has to live as if he were infected by AIDS (whatever the claimed cause is). In other words, if a healthy victim got the main constituents of these drugs, in one way or another and without his knowledge (this can happen easily at hospitals, in the criminal world, by taking advantage of the victim's ignorance), he would lose his body's immunity and be presented to the world as being infected (during his sexual activities) by AIDS (a virus or whatever). And the victim cannot defend himself, in any way, because no one will believe him/her, even his/her own family; this is a clear example of the modern 'perfect' crimes.

[2] The patient got the 'Immunosuppressant drugs before the operation. But after staying for a while in the intensive care room, his doctor will let him return back home to live normally again as a healthy person does. This case means that the medical discovery was completed fully by also finding a way to restore the lost immunity (actually in the case of such patients, its functions were just dimmed or paralyzed). This explains how almost every rich victim (male or female) can buy his life (and his honor!) to restore his lost immunity by paying any amount and/or accepting any proposed deal since he thinks he was infected by AIDS while he was doing sex with a stranger!

The loss of immunity in the victim's body could be 'partial' or 'total' (the two cases are likely related to the dose, inserted in the body).
In the latter case, there is no way to restore it and it will be a question of time for the victim to die soon after he will be infected by any virus or microbe.

I will jump now to tell you how it was possible for me to save certain lives:
A couple of years after my city was connected to internet, I got an email from a Nigerian girl asking me for financial help. This was the trend at that time! I saw myself asking her if she heard of AIDS. She replied: "Yes of course I did. Many hundreds die daily in my city because of it". So I asked her: "Didn't your city welcome some foreign doctors to save its citizens from AIDS?". She was surprised for knowing this. And she added that she also helps one of these doctors as a nurse. So my next email was something like:

"I like you know, though you don't have to believe me, that AIDS is not a decease which can propagate from one person to another (during sex for example; as the international news insists on almost daily). The loss of immunity is caused by something which has to be inserted in one's body intentionally though I am not sure how exactly. So to protect yourself, don't let any stranger, mainly if he is a foreign doctor, touch your body for any reason and don't get any medicine that you and your family are not familiar to or is claimed to be related to AIDS in any way."

About a year after my last email, she wrote me:
"Do you remember me? I liked to tell you that I am alive with a few members of my family and some friends who trusted and applied your advice as I did. Alas, all other people with whom I lived died because of AIDS."

In fact, too many millions of Africans died because of AIDS. And I recall a white man telling me: Aren't you white? Why do you care of what happened or may happen to Africans? Well, if an ordinary person, he was, can think that way, we may imagine to how far some powerful ones can think and do.

Soon later, I thought it was good to write an article and publish it on a local newspaper. I wrote it in Arabic and its title was: "What behind AIDS stories". A local journalist, he was one of my customers, read it and asked my permission to publish it. He didn't find anything on it which could prevent publishing it. But, a few days later, he returned back to inform me that his boss refused it. I bet you cannot guess the reason for which it was refused :) Well, his boss found (and he was right) that the article would certainly upset to a great extent ‘all’ Muslim and Christian clergies in the city who were telling their believers, almost daily at that time, that AIDS is a clear sign of Wrath of Allah/God (because they live some evil sexual fantasies!).
Since no one I knew in my surrounding got AIDS, I had no urgent reason to convince the authorities of what I know (there are other details not mentioned here). But those who knew me or live with me were glad for knowing that they won't get infected by the so-called AIDS decease/virus (leading to loss of immunity) no matter how they live sexually :) For instance, I learnt later that even the local authorities had (still has) no choice but to be involved in spreading and confirming officially all AIDS stories (as being a natural global decease, threatening the existence of human race!) as they are approved by the greatest systems (hence by UN too, as usual).

Now, it is your turn to comment. Please, be free to present anything that you know and contradicts what I said.
(More to come if you like)
 
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KerimF

Active Member
Most humans tend to see the world as they like it to be. Since they are also guided by their natural personal instincts, they try to correct, when possible, anything that looks wrong or bad to them by applying a certain justice. Since applying justice by one’s hand leads to chaos, it is usually seen a wrong behavior, if not criminal in many cases.

Therefore, since very long ago people in every region didn’t mind that their justice is applied by a few persons only; local ones or foreigners (in colonies). But, to supervise the application of justice properly, those who run (the top decision makers) or serve the ruling system (the official speakers and officers) should be given certain privileged rights and legitimate incomes, besides headings various sorts of forces, to help them achieve their given role. This has created, in every period of time, what we may call the ruling class in every region. And a ruling class has always become the core of what we may call the powerful rich class in a society, privileged and protected by a law.

To be on the safe side, those who belong to the lower classes (forming the majority in every society) should trust blindly their ruling system besides obeying/observing its various imposed rules which are made/created, under one pretext or another, by their powerful rich class (high class).

Now I guess it is clear why I hesitated a lot before giving one example about how it is possible to fool the world’s multitudes also in the name of science and scientists (doctors in this example). But I had to let some readers hear things that they are not supposed to hear though I know that, in such a situation, ignorance is bliss for most people.
 
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