Hell Gets The Most People

[Adziilii]

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According to Jesus Christ's testimony as a credible expert witness in all matters pertaining to the afterlife; most of the world's responsible souls haven't been making it to safety when they cross over to the other side.

● Luke 13:22-24 . . And he went through the cities and villages, teaching, and journeying toward Jerusalem. Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them, strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

● Matt 7:13-14 . . Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

● Matt 22:14 . . For many are called, but few are chosen.

Webster's defines "many" as consisting of, or amounting to, a large but indefinite number; while "few" is defined as consisting of, or amounting to, only a small number; viz: relative to many then, few is the lesser. Bear with me while I flesh this out.

According to the US Census Bureau: as of Feb 04, 2019 @ 09:37 pm New York Time, the United States population was approximately 328,392,867 with a death rate of approximately one every 10 seconds; which translates to an average of 8,640 American deaths of all ages, races, and genders during just one 24-hour calendar day.

According to 2009 US Census data; roughly 27.3% of America's daily deaths are under the age of 19, which would indicate that approximately 6,281 of the current daily death rate per 24 hours are adults.

Giving the "many" the benefit of the doubt by limiting their maximum percentage to 51%, would indicate a minimum of 3,203 American adults transferring to perdition every day: which translates to roughly 133 per hour.

That's a conservative estimate as Christ didn't really specify exact percentages to represent the quantities of "few" and "many". But just think: by the time CBS completes its half hour evening news report, a bare-bones minimum of 66 Americans become new arrivals in the fiery sector of the netherworld.

Using the ratio of 3,203 condemned souls per 328,392,867 population: extrapolating the number of condemned souls worldwide from a currently estimated global population of 7,550,818,926 people, would suggest something like 73,647 new arrivals in the fiery sector of the netherworld every 24 hours; which translates to approximately 3,069 global arrivals every sixty minutes on the clock.

That rate would fill Yankee Stadium's 51,800 seats to capacity in roughly 16 hours and 53 minutes. In other words: if the world's daily number of condemned souls started filing into the stadium at 06:00 am this morning, then by 10:53 pm tonight, the stadium would be full to capacity.

Christmas and New Year are even worse. A study done of 26 years of death certificates shows that coronary fatalities are, on average, 11.9% higher on those days than any other days of the year; with non-heart deaths spiking to 12.2% higher.

The hell I'm describing never closes; no, not at all: it's open for business 24/7/365 nonstop and indifferent to global warming, Wall Street crashes, massive layoffs, outsourcing, tariffs, school shootings, terrorism, tsunamis, earthquakes, hurricanes, storm surges, nuclear meltdowns, air, water, and soil pollution, a mission to Mars, freeway pile-ups, brown-outs, threatened species, the price of oil, drug cartels, LGBT marriage, student debt, GMO, trade deficits, Obamacare, protests, North Korean nukes, Federal debt, factory recalls, overpopulation, desertification, genocides, revolutions, civil wars, acid rain, road rage, oil spills, conscious decoupling, ISIS, blood diamonds, fracking, twerking, and/or President Donald Trump's wall.

If classical Christianity's perception of Jesus Christ and the hereafter is correct; then it's apparent that people never stop cascading into the netherworld's dungeons in an endless procession like the unbelievable millions of poultry broilers passing annually through Tyson chicken-processing plants on their way to Wendy's, McDonalds, Carl's Junior, Jack in the Box, Burger King, Chic-fil-A, KFC, A&W, Arby's, Dairy Queen, Taco Bell, et al; and to supermarkets and restaurants all over the USA and wherever else Tyson vends its meats. The slaughtering and the butchering never stop.
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[Hockeycowboy]

What if Hell is just the Grave?

Please read Genesis 42:38, in different translations:

New International Version
But Jacob said, "My son will not go down there with you; his brother is dead and he is the only one left. If harm comes to him on the journey you are taking, you will bring my gray head down to the grave in sorrow."

Compare this to the Douay-Rheims Bible
But he said: My son shall not go down with you: his brother is dead, and he is left alone: if any mischief befall him in the land to which you go, you will bring down my gray hairs with sorrow to hell.

(Other Scriptures back this up).

Furthermore, Hell will be emptied (IOW, all those in Hell will have a resurrection):

Revelation 20:13-14....New Living Translation:
The sea gave up its dead, and death and the grave gave up their dead. And all were judged according to their deeds.

Compared to GOD'S WORD® Translation:
The sea gave up its dead. Death and hell gave up their dead. People were judged based on what they had done.

'Fiery torment of the dead' is an ancient pagan, God- dishonoring concept, which has only served to keep ppl away from ''drawing close' (James 4:8) to Him.

 

[Deeje]

According to Jesus Christ's testimony as a credible expert witness in all matters pertaining to the afterlife; most of the world's responsible souls haven't been making it to safety when they cross over to the other side.

The other side of what? I cannot see anything in the Bible that tells us that any part of humans survive death to go anywhere. Immortality of the soul is a platonic Greek notion, not of Jewish or Christian origin.

Where was Adam told that he would go when he died?

Genesis 3:19....
"In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.”....any mention of heaven or hell there?

Matthew 10:28.....
"And do not become fearful of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather, fear him who can destroy both soul and body in Ge·henʹna."

The dead are released from Hades (Revelation 20:13) and those in "gehenna are "destroyed" body and soul.

What is the difference between "Hades" and "Gehenna"?

How can people think that a loving God would keep souls alive in a ghoulish prison, only to torment them forever? Is that what justice demands? What a sick concept! In order to do that, these dead ones would have to be alive forever. God said that only the righteous will gain everlasting life.....

At Jeremiah 7:30-31 God said....
"For the sons of Judah have done what is bad in my eyes,’ is the utterance of Jehovah. ‘They have set their disgusting things in the house upon which my name has been called, in order to defile it. 31 And they have built the high places of Toʹpheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hinʹnom, in order to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, a thing that I had not commanded and that had not come up into my heart.' "

If Israelites sacrificed their children to Moloch, by placing them alive in flames, and it was abhorrent to Jehovah, why on earth would he do that to his own children? (Jeremiah 32:35)

 

[Adziilii]

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Two Hebrew words in the Old Testament commonly translated "grave" are she'owl (sheh-ole') and sheol (sheh-ole').

Their equivalent in the New Testament is haides (hah'-dace) a.k.a. hades.

Sheol includes the grave but that's only half the picture.

According to the prophet Jonah, a portion of sheol is located at the roots of the mountains. Well, mountains aren't rooted in the tummies of fish, they're rooted very deep in the Earth.

Haides includes the grave, but again, that's only half the picture. Prior to Christ's demise, he predicted that he would spend some time in the heart of the Earth. Well; when you think about it, Jesus' corpse wasn't laid to rest in the heart of the Earth; rather, up on the surface.

So then, we have two very reliable sources testifying that sheol and haides are not limited to the grave.
_

 

[Quagmire]

***Thread Moved to Same Faith Debates***​

 

[Desert Snake]

Right.

Jesus says, 'the gates of Hell are wide'...


Matthew 7:13


Pretty clear what that means.

 

[Deeje]

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Two Hebrew words in the Old Testament commonly translated "grave" are she'owl (sheh-ole') and sheol (sheh-ole').

Their equivalent in the New Testament is haides (hah'-dace) a.k.a. hades.

Sheol includes the grave but that's only half the picture.

According to the prophet Jonah, a portion of sheol is located at the roots of the mountains. Well, mountains aren't rooted in the tummies of fish, they're rooted very deep in the Earth.

"Sheol" in the ancient Jewish concept was simply the grave. The Jews originally had no belief in an afterlife involving an ethereal part of man departing from the body to go anywhere at death. All prospects for a future life were by resurrection....literally rising from the dead in physical form. All the resurrections performed in the Bible were back to life in the flesh. The only one who experienced a different kind of resurrection was Jesus.

When Jesus raised his friend Lazarus from the dead, where did Jesus say he was? (John 11:11-14) He did not call him from heaven, but from the grave. Jesus said he was "sleeping". All future resurrections will be from the grave where the majority of the human dead have been sleeping for centuries. Jesus has promised to call them out, just as he did Lazarus. (John 5:28-29)

Please share this gem of scripture from the prophet Jonah.

His time in the belly of the fish was used by Jesus to illustrate his time in the grave. Just as Jonah would have perished if left in the fish, (if God had not rescued him,) so Jesus would have perished without his Father resurrecting him. He was in his grave "sleeping" in an unconscious state just as the scriptures say. There is nothing but silence in the grave.

Psalm 115:17....
"The dead do not praise Jah;
Nor do any who go down into the silence of death."

When God told Adam that he would die.....he meant it. He did not mean that Adam would survive death to live on somewhere else. He had no choice between heaven and hell.
Death is the opposite of life and that choice was the only one that Israel had. There was no "heaven or hell" offered to them either......just life or death. (Deuteronomy 30:19)

Haides includes the grave, but again, that's only half the picture. Prior to Christ's demise, he predicted that he would spend some time in the heart of the Earth. Well; when you think about it, Jesus' corpse wasn't laid to rest in the heart of the Earth; rather, up on the surface.

So then, we have two very reliable sources testifying that sheol and haides are not limited to the grave.

So much of what you postulate is not based on scripture but on assumptions made out of false religious concepts. There is no immortal soul in either man or animals. There is no afterlife.

Ecclesiastes 3:19-20...
"for there is an outcome for humans and an outcome for animals; they all have the same outcome. As the one dies, so the other dies; and they all have but one spirit. So man has no superiority over animals, for everything is futile. 20 All are going to the same place. They all come from the dust, and they all are returning to the dust."

We die the same death as animals do....we stop breathing and our brain and other organs fail due to lack of oxygen. The only advantage we have, is that Jesus offered the promise of a resurrection.

The "gates of hades" are simply metaphorical because the dead are called out of death as if gates were opened to free them. When you base your belief on a wrong premise, then everything you believe about it will be in error.

There is no such place as Christendom's "hell". God is not some ghoulish fiend enjoying the torture of anyone.

Ezekiel 18:23...
“‘Do I take any delight at all in the death of someone wicked,’ is the utterance of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah, ‘[and] not in that he should turn back from his ways and actually keep living?’"

Its the "death" of the wicked that God takes no delight in....."gehenna" (like the lake of fire in Revelation) was the symbol of everlasting death, not everlasting torture.....it is the opposite of everlasting life.There is no "portion" of hades......it is just the burial place of humankind, where we have no advantage over the animals.

False Greek concepts invaded both Judaism and Christianity, which is why we were warned about a coming apostasy. Why does Christendom pretend it never happened?

 

[Adziilii]

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Christian Bible students are often baffled as to why Solomon's remarks in the book of Ecclesiastes sometimes contradict Jesus' teachings in the New Testament. Well; the answer to that is actually pretty simple.

Solomon wasn't inspired to record his observations from the perspective of an enlightened man who's privy to knowledge beyond the scope of empirical evidence and human experience; rather, from the perspective of a man "under the sun" viz: a down to earth thinking man whose perception of reality is moderated by what he can see for himself going on around him in the physical universe; which of course results in an evaluation of life on earth as seen from the earth rather than an evaluation of life on earth as seen from heaven; which is at least one of the reasons why Ecclesiastes is a favorite with atheists and agnostics.

In other words: Ecclesiastes is one man's world view-- his personal philosophy of life --rather than a book of either history, revelation, or prophecy; and it's loaded with pessimism; which is basically a mindset inclined to dwell on the negative in human experience rather than the positive. For example:

"You only go around once, so do it with all the gusto you can get!"

That was a Schlitz beer advertisement some years ago. It's worldly wisdom thru and thru rather than heavenly. Compare it to a couple of Solomon's remarks:

● Ecc 9:5 . .The living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing

● Ecc 9:10 . .Whatever your hand finds to do, verily, do it with all your might; for there is no activity or planning or knowledge or wisdom in sheol where you are going.

That wisdom is Schlitz beer wisdom thru and thru.

Solomon was a very wise man; in point of fact, he was the brightest intellectual of his day. But Solomon's knowledge and experience were limited. He didn't know everything there is to know, nor had he seen everything there is to see, nor been everywhere there is to go. Whereas Christ's knowledge is extremely vast.

● Col 2:3 . . In whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.

And if there is an afterlife located in the heart of the Earth; it didn't get there by accident. Christ, in his capacity as the Word, created it.

● John 1:3 . . All things came into being by him, and apart from him nothing came into being that has come into being.

So then, it only stands to reason that Christ would know more about the afterlife than Solomon because the Word has actually seen it for himself, whereas Solomon didn't see anything beyond the grave when he penned Ecclesiastes.

A good rule of thumb to apply when the teachings of Solomon and Jesus contradict each other, is to keep in mind that Jesus' teachings trump Solomon's.

● Matt 12:42 . .The Queen of the South shall rise up with this generation at the judgment and shall condemn it, because she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and behold, something greater than Solomon is here.

And Jesus comes highly recommended too.

● Matt 17:5 . .This is My beloved son, with whom I am well-pleased; listen to him!

So then, when encountering remarks in the book of Ecclesiastes that are out of step with Christ's' teachings in the New Testament, my unsolicited spiritual counseling is: go with "My beloved son"

● John 8:12 . . I am the light of the world; he who follows me shall not walk in the darkness, but shall have the light of life.
_

 

[Adziilii]

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The passage below is deliberately misquoted. Watch for it.

● Ps 146:3-4 . . Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help. His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day he ceases to exist.

The actual passage says "his thoughts perish"

The Hebrew word for "thoughts" in that passage is 'eshtonah (esh-to naw') which means: thinking.

Unfortunately, Ps 146:4 is the only place in the entire Old Testament where 'eshtonah appears so we can't compare its uses in other contexts.

According to Webster's the word "thinking" is ambiguous with quite a variety of meanings to choose from; including, but not limited to: concerns, anticipations, conceptions, opinions, imaginations, visualizations, ideas, epiphanies, plans, schemes, fantasies, arguments, aspirations, deliberations, and the like.

For the rich man in Jesus' parable at Luke 12:16-20; I would choose ideas, plans, and schemes.

For example: consider all those people who perished in the World Trade Center, and in the Japan and Indonesia tsunamis, and the Haiti earthquake. None of them woke that day planning on it being their last on earth. No, on the contrary; they had people to see, places to go, and things to do: but before the day ended; whatever was on their itinerary lost its importance-- their priorities went right out the window and became no more significant than green cheese on the moon.

All their plans, their dreams, their schedules, their appointments, their schemes, their problems, their ambitions, their loves, and their aspirations-- whatever was on their minds that day --went right down the tubes as they were suddenly confronted with a whole new reality to cope with.

So then, an alternative interpretation to the anti-afterlife crowd's interpretation of Ps 146:3-4 is that people don't cease to exist when they die nor do their cognitive processes stop working; no, it only means that whatever was on their minds before they passed away is now null and void.

Take for example Michael Jackson. While working on a new world tour, Jackson died in his sleep. As a result; his tour wrapped on the spot.

When my eldest nephew was paroled from prison, he quit drinking, and began going to college with the goal towards becoming a counselor. For 2½ years all went well. His parole officer was happy, and he was on track and getting good grades. My nephew's future looked assured. And then on the morning of Sept 25, 2015, he dropped dead to the floor of natural causes.

My nephew's passing was a terrible disappointment to everybody; but actually we all kind of expected it. He was grossly overweight, had high blood pressure and high cholesterol, rarely exercised, and smoked. But the point is; my nephew's dream ended just as abruptly as flipping a light switch. And all of our hopes for his success ended the same way, viz: our thoughts perished right along with his.

Death is the mortal enemy of human ambitions. It often casts its long shadow when they set about planning their lives. The Scottish poet Robert Burns noticed that life sometimes throws a curve ball that makes all your careful preparations strike out instead of getting you on base.

He was at work one day plowing in the field and uprooted a mouse's underground nest who was all set for the oncoming winter. The mouse had picked a fallow field as the site for its winter retreat thinking it would be safe and snug; unmolested during the cold. But it didn't (or maybe we should say it couldn't) know the workings of powers higher than itself-- in this case, farmers and their machinery.

Mousie, you are not alone in proving foresight may be vain.
The best laid schemes of mice and men go often askew,
And leave us naught but grief and pain for promised joy.

UPDATE: 2 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 147,294 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since Feb 05, 2019.
_

 

[Deeje]

Christian Bible students are often baffled as to why Solomon's remarks in the book of Ecclesiastes sometimes contradict Jesus' teachings in the New Testament.

I don't see any contradictions. Can you point them out specifically? We can discuss them one at a time.

Well; the answer to that is actually pretty simple.

Solomon wasn't inspired to record his observations from the perspective of an enlightened man who's privy to knowledge beyond the scope of empirical evidence and human experience; rather, from the perspective of a man "under the sun" viz: a down to earth thinking man whose perception of reality is moderated by what he can see for himself going on around him in the physical universe; which of course results in an evaluation of life on earth as seen from the earth rather than an evaluation of life on earth as seen from heaven; which is at least one of the reasons why Ecclesiastes is a favorite with atheists and agnostics.

If "all scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, 17 so that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work." (2 Timothy 3:16-17) then Paul was speaking about the OT because that was the only scripture available at the time. If you see contradictions, it is in your interpretation that is in error, not in the scriptures.

In other words: Ecclesiastes is one man's world view-- his personal philosophy of life --rather than a book of either history, revelation, or prophecy; and it's loaded with pessimism; which is basically a mindset inclined to dwell on the negative in human experience rather than the positive.

It is true that Solomon lamented about things he did not yet understand...but that does not negate what he wrote under inspiration. Remember that his wisdom was God-given.

Solomon wasn't inspired to record his observations from the perspective of an enlightened man who's privy to knowledge beyond the scope of empirical evidence and human experience; rather, from the perspective of a man "under the sun" viz: a down to earth thinking man whose perception of reality is moderated by what he can see for himself going on around him in the physical universe; which of course results in an evaluation of life on earth as seen from the earth rather than an evaluation of life on earth as seen from heaven; which is at least one of the reasons why Ecclesiastes is a favorite with atheists and agnostics.

Solomon's views on the futility of this life are still valid. His statements about animals and man dying the same death and returning to the dust are still valid. His perspective from the human standpoint are just as true today as the day they were written. Nothing Jesus taught fought with what Solomon wrote. They had the same teacher.

The reason why Ecclesiastes is a favorite with atheists and agnostics is not because his writings were incorrect, or written in ignorance, but because it fights with the views of Christendom's churches. Solomon was not wrong....the church's interpretation of scripture is wrong.

The Bible is one book...with one author....telling one story. The church tells a different story, influenced by pagan ideas, and then blames Solomon for being ignorant. He wasn't.....but Solomon himself learned his lesson the hard way...in his older age, his own disobedience led him to the worship of other gods due to the fact that he married many foreign women and was influenced by their worship. Even that does not negate a single thing he wrote earlier, otherwise it would not be in the inspired word of God.

In the Bible, there is an unenlightened beginning with a rebellion that took God's purpose off track temporarily. But it tells us about gradual unfolding of a scenario that takes us from that shaky beginning, on a single journey to one destination....the re-institution of God's personal rule over humanity as free willed beings, educated in God's ways and wisdom through the experience of those who obeyed God, and those who did not. That is what the Bible is...an instruction manual using the first hand experience of one nation who had continual problems with obedience to laws that they willingly accepted. Its about "the blessing and the malediction"....so that we can learn from their faults, and also see how God blessed them when they obeyed his directives. Why did it not end well for the Jewish nation? I think we all know why. Humans corrupted God's worship by inferring that they knew better.

Christendom is a mirror image of apostate Judaism. Same problem...same outcome.

Solomon was a very wise man; in point of fact, he was the brightest intellectual of his day. But Solomon's knowledge and experience were limited. He didn't know everything there is to know, nor had he seen everything there is to see, nor been everywhere there is to go. Whereas Christ's knowledge is extremely vast.

Since "the sacred secret" was to unfold gradually, there can be nothing in Solomon's writings that are contradicted by Jesus. Both had God's spirit....the most powerful force in the universe.

if there is an afterlife located in the heart of the Earth; it didn't get there by accident. Christ, in his capacity as the Word, created it.

There is no "afterlife" anywhere. Jesus never taught that there was. Immortality of the soul is not found in scripture. Solomon was correct....we all go to "hell" (sheol, hades) because it is nothing more than the common grave. Christendom adopted immortality of the soul from Greek Platonism...not Judaism. It was never a Jewish or Christian teaching.

So then, it only stands to reason that Christ would know more about the afterlife than Solomon because the Word has actually seen it for himself, whereas Solomon didn't see anything beyond the grave when he penned Ecclesiastes.

A good rule of thumb to apply when the teachings of Solomon and Jesus contradict each other, is to keep in mind that Jesus' teachings trump Solomon's.

Jesus never needs to "trump Solomon" because that would mean that God's word contradicts itself. That cannot happen. The plain fact is...there is no afterlife. Humans borrowed that idea from paganism. Jesus and Solomon agree. It's the church that disagrees.
The same spirit that inspired Solomon, also inspired Jesus. Does God need to "trump" himself? Seriously?

when encountering remarks in the book of Ecclesiastes that are out of step with Christ's' teachings in the New Testament, my unsolicited spiritual counseling is: go with "My beloved son"

So is mine.....but I don't believe that we need to make that choice.....does God speak with a forked tongue? It is more likely man that does so.

 

[Adziilii]

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● 2Tim 3:16-17 . . All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: that the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

Though all scripture is inspired; not all scripture is true; for example:

● Gen 3:2-3 . . And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

Is that true? No it isn't. God didn't say they couldn't touch the fruit.

Here's another example:

● Gen 3:4 . . And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

Is that true? No, they died.

Another:

● Gen 4:9 . . And the LORD said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not:

Is that true? No; Cain knew exactly his brother's whereabouts.

The serpent's words, Eve's words, and Cain's words are all in scripture by inspiration of God, and profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: that the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works. And their statements aren't the only untrue statements in scripture. The ones I selected are just a drop in the bucket.
_

 

[Hockeycowboy]

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● 2Tim 3:16-17 . . All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: that the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

Though all scripture is inspired; not all scripture is true; for example:

● Gen 3:2-3 . . And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

Is that true? No it isn't. God didn't say they couldn't touch the fruit.

Here's another example:

● Gen 3:4 . . And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

Is that true? No, they died.

Another:

● Gen 4:9 . . And the LORD said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not:

Is that true? No; Cain knew exactly his brother's whereabouts.

The serpent's words, Eve's words, and Cain's words are all in scripture by inspiration of God, and profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: that the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works. And their statements aren't the only untrue statements in scripture. The ones I selected are just a drop in the bucket.
_

Yes....we should be glad the Bible gives us examples... It warns us.

 

[Deeje]

Though all scripture is inspired; not all scripture is true; for example:

● Gen 3:2-3 . . And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

Is that true? No it isn't. God didn't say they couldn't touch the fruit.

Oh dear, you really are running out of ammo....

Eve was repeating what her husband told her...God never gave that instruction to the woman. As head of his family, Adam was to instruct his wife and children in Jehovah's commands. He was the first Patriarch you know.

How possible would it be to eat the fruit without touching it I wonder? Tongs? Obviously Adam had drilled that command into his wife because it was the only law they were given and it had dire consequences.

Here's another example:

● Gen 3:4 . . And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

Is that true? No, they died.

Are you serious? Was there a reason why Jesus called satan the "father of the lie"? The Bible merely records what transpired. It takes someone desperate to bring up such a weak argument.

Satan's lie is the basis for belief in an afterlife. Did you fall for it too?

Another:

● Gen 4:9 . . And the LORD said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not:

Is that true? No; Cain knew exactly his brother's whereabouts.

Well, heck....Cain was a murderer and now he was lying.....any surprises there?

The serpent's words, Eve's words, and Cain's words are all in scripture by inspiration of God, and profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: that the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works. And their statements aren't the only untrue statements in scripture. The ones I selected are just a drop in the bucket.

I am beginning to see why your posts are becoming more bizarre. If the scriptures you posted are simply recorded lies that have been proven to be so, then what is the lesson? "Liars are from their father the devil"....
Liars never prosper. I can't believe you even posted that. SMH right now.

If those are the best you can do....I hate to think what the worst would be.

 

[Deeje]

The passage below is deliberately misquoted. Watch for it.

● Ps 146:3-4 . . Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help. His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day he ceases to exist.

The actual passage says "his thoughts perish"

The Hebrew word for "thoughts" in that passage is 'eshtonah (esh-to naw') which means: thinking.

Unfortunately, Ps 146:4 is the only place in the entire Old Testament where 'eshtonah appears so we can't compare its uses in other contexts.

What does one need to think? What is human thinking tied to? Last time I looked, it was our brain. We can't think without one, so when the brain dies, the soul dies too......not because it is something immaterial inside of us, but because the soul is the living, breathing creature. It is mortal. (Ezekiel 18:4) That is why Solomon said we had no advantage over the animals.....we die just like they do.

According to Webster's the word "thinking" is ambiguous with quite a variety of meanings to choose from; including, but not limited to: concerns, anticipations, conceptions, opinions, imaginations, visualizations, ideas, epiphanies, plans, schemes, fantasies, arguments, aspirations, deliberations, and the like.

Thinking is what we do every day. Do you need a dictionary to define it? All of the above ceases at death because the organ that we think with has died.


Remember back to the garden of Eden when God created Adam....he "became" a living soul when God started him breathing....when he died...that is when his breathing stopped. He then ceased to be a "soul".

For the rich man in Jesus' parable at Luke 12:16-20; I would choose ideas, plans, and schemes.

You would choose? It was a parable....not a true story. The characters are not real.....but you knew that, right?

an alternative interpretation to the anti-afterlife crowd's interpretation of Ps 146:3-4 is that people don't cease to exist when they die nor do their cognitive processes stop working; no, it only means that whatever was on their minds before they passed away is now null and void.

"The anti-afterlife crowd". That's a new one.

David said at Psalm 146:3-4....
"Do not put your trust in princes
Nor in a son of man, who cannot bring salvation.
His spirit (Hebrew "breath") goes out, he returns to the ground;
On that very day his thoughts perish."

IOW, David said that once a person dies, they cannot carry out their plans. Their plans die with them. They have lost their thinking ability.

Ecclesiastes gives us more detail....
"For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all, nor do they have any more reward, because all memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also, their love and their hate and their jealousy have already perished, and they no longer have any share in what is done under the sun. . . .Whatever your hand finds to do, do with all your might, for there is no work nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom in the Grave, (sheol) where you are going."

You see there....no activity, planning, knowledge or wisdom where we are all going....sheol...hades....the grave.
But did you notice in verse 6 it says that emotions are gone too.....hate and jealousy are gone...but so is LOVE. How is that possible when "God us love"? How can there be no love in the afterlife?

UPDATE: 2 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 147,294 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since Feb 05, 2019.

You don't know how sad that is. There is no fiery hell in any Jewish or Christian teaching. Please research the meaning of "gehenna"....erroneously translated "hell" in many Bibles.

Mark 9:43-48.....
“If ever your hand makes you stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed than to go off with two hands into Ge·henʹna, into the fire that cannot be put out. . . . 45 And if your foot makes you stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life lame than to be thrown with two feet into Ge·henʹna. . . . .47 And if your eye makes you stumble, throw it away. It is better for you to enter one-eyed into the Kingdom of God than to be thrown with two eyes into Ge·henʹna, 48 where the maggot does not die and the fire is not put out."

This is not a description of hell.....but the city of Jerusalem's rubbish dump, where fires were kept burning day and night by the addition of brimstone (sulfur). It was where dead animals and the bodies of executed criminals were cast for disposal. Nothing alive was ever put in there. What the flames missed, the maggots finished off.

Those thrown into gehenna were not considered worthy of a resurrection. It is a symbol of everlasting death.

The ghoulish god you worship is not the true God. How can you relish such a fiendish scenario....its just sick.

 

[Adziilii]

.
Through me; the way to the eternal city.
Through me; the way to eternal sadness.
Through me; the way to lost people.

Justice moved my supreme maker:
I was shaped by divine power,
By highest wisdom, and by primal love.

Before me, nothing was created
That is not eternal: and eternally I endure.
Abandon all hope, you that enter here.

The Divine Comedy
by Dante Alighieri
Inferno: canto 3, v.1-9

Dante's poetic epic is called a comedy because it has a happy ending as opposed to a tragedy; at least for Dante anyway. The souls he and Virgil pass along the way through the Inferno portion of Dante's odyssey will never, nor anon, have a happy ending; hence the sign above the entrance to his netherworld: "Abandon all hope, you that enter here."

Webster's defines "despair' as: to no longer have any hope or belief that a situation will improve or change. Well; down in the Inferno section of Dante's concept, despair is a way of life.

One of the hardest concepts to get across is the despair that people in hell must feel in knowing that their situation is a sealed fate with no hope of relief. Dante's odyssey, though of course a fantasy, is useful for that purpose; especially when it's accompanied by illustrations painted by Gustave Doré.

Jesus warned people that they'd be better off facing eternity with their hands and their feet amputated, and their eyes gouged out, then to end up in a hell he called geena (gheh'-en-eh); a much worse place than haides (hah'-dace). So in my estimation, Dante's descriptions, and Gustave's paintings, though disturbing enough in themselves, aren't sufficient to impress just how terrible the ultimate sum of all fears really is.
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[Kangaroo Feathers]

.
According to Jesus Christ's testimony as a credible expert witness in all matters pertaining to the afterlife; most of the world's responsible souls haven't been making it to safety when they cross over to the other side.

● Luke 13:22-24 . . And he went through the cities and villages, teaching, and journeying toward Jerusalem. Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them, strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

● Matt 7:13-14 . . Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

● Matt 22:14 . . For many are called, but few are chosen.

Webster's defines "many" as consisting of, or amounting to, a large but indefinite number; while "few" is defined as consisting of, or amounting to, only a small number; viz: relative to many then, few is the lesser. Bear with me while I flesh this out.

According to the US Census Bureau: as of Feb 04, 2019 @ 09:37 pm New York Time, the United States population was approximately 328,392,867 with a death rate of approximately one every 10 seconds; which translates to an average of 8,640 American deaths of all ages, races, and genders during just one 24-hour calendar day.

According to 2009 US Census data; roughly 27.3% of America's daily deaths are under the age of 19, which would indicate that approximately 6,281 of the current daily death rate per 24 hours are adults.

Giving the "many" the benefit of the doubt by limiting their maximum percentage to 51%, would indicate a minimum of 3,203 American adults transferring to perdition every day: which translates to roughly 133 per hour.

That's a conservative estimate as Christ didn't really specify exact percentages to represent the quantities of "few" and "many". But just think: by the time CBS completes its half hour evening news report, a bare-bones minimum of 66 Americans become new arrivals in the fiery sector of the netherworld.

Using the ratio of 3,203 condemned souls per 328,392,867 population: extrapolating the number of condemned souls worldwide from a currently estimated global population of 7,550,818,926 people, would suggest something like 73,647 new arrivals in the fiery sector of the netherworld every 24 hours; which translates to approximately 3,069 global arrivals every sixty minutes on the clock.

That rate would fill Yankee Stadium's 51,800 seats to capacity in roughly 16 hours and 53 minutes. In other words: if the world's daily number of condemned souls started filing into the stadium at 06:00 am this morning, then by 10:53 pm tonight, the stadium would be full to capacity.

Christmas and New Year are even worse. A study done of 26 years of death certificates shows that coronary fatalities are, on average, 11.9% higher on those days than any other days of the year; with non-heart deaths spiking to 12.2% higher.

The hell I'm describing never closes; no, not at all: it's open for business 24/7/365 nonstop and indifferent to global warming, Wall Street crashes, massive layoffs, outsourcing, tariffs, school shootings, terrorism, tsunamis, earthquakes, hurricanes, storm surges, nuclear meltdowns, air, water, and soil pollution, a mission to Mars, freeway pile-ups, brown-outs, threatened species, the price of oil, drug cartels, LGBT marriage, student debt, GMO, trade deficits, Obamacare, protests, North Korean nukes, Federal debt, factory recalls, overpopulation, desertification, genocides, revolutions, civil wars, acid rain, road rage, oil spills, conscious decoupling, ISIS, blood diamonds, fracking, twerking, and/or President Donald Trump's wall.

If classical Christianity's perception of Jesus Christ and the hereafter is correct; then it's apparent that people never stop cascading into the netherworld's dungeons in an endless procession like the unbelievable millions of poultry broilers passing annually through Tyson chicken-processing plants on their way to Wendy's, McDonalds, Carl's Junior, Jack in the Box, Burger King, Chic-fil-A, KFC, A&W, Arby's, Dairy Queen, Taco Bell, et al; and to supermarkets and restaurants all over the USA and wherever else Tyson vends its meats. The slaughtering and the butchering never stop.
_

I don't think anyone goes to Hell. Pergatory, sure, but the concept of an infinitely merciful and loving God condemning people to infinite punishment for finite acts makes no logical sense. The only possible exception I can imagine would be people who knowingly and willfully choose Hell, but I doubt that's a common choice.

 

[Adziilii]

.

The only possible exception I can imagine would be people who knowingly and willfully choose Hell, but I doubt that's a common choice.

Personally I believe that for some people, hell would be the better choice than heaven because heaven is a place of peace.

There are some people in this world who are simply implacable. They're indignant over everything, For them rivalry, conflict, revenge, retaliation, quarrelling, and grudging are a way of life: every disagreement is an act of war-- their egos are fragile; they're defensive, they're reactive, and easily provoked and insulted.

They thrive on criticism, carping, finding fault and pointing out mistakes, tattling, bickering, retorts, rejoinders, recriminations, endless debate, telling other people off, and giving people a piece of their mind. And some of them are bullies, meddlers, domineering, imperious, gossips and rumor mongers.

I haven't even mentioned the defiant; the rebels without a cause. These people are tough; like Navy SEALS they refuse to lose or be beaten at anything. Who is Jesus to them but just another rival.

No, all those kinds of people would be out of their element in heaven; they'd hate the place because they couldn't be themselves there.

UPDATE: 4 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 294,588 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since Feb 05, 2019.
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[SalixIncendium]

**THREAD MOVED TO RELIGIOUS DEBATES**

This thread is now open for all to participate.​

 

[Adziilii]

.
People have been filtering into perdition not only since the time of Christ, but since before the Step Pyramid of Djoser, and even before the Flood. I won't speculate how many years that might be, but h.sapiens is thought by some to have achieved full behavioral modernity something like 50,000 years ago. (There's new findings suggesting that human existence goes as far back as 150-300,000 years) Anyway; whether that extends clear on back to Adam and Eve I have no clue; but just think: if it does, then Cain and others from his era have been down in the netherworld all this time.

It's difficult for the human mind to appreciate 50,000 years let alone 300,000. I've been on the Earth for just 75, and I've noticed that my childhood is so far in the past to me now as to seem more like a fantasy than a memory. But you know; when you're talking about eternity, 50,000 years isn't even a drop in the bucket. If it were a drop in the bucket, it would be a bucket with no bottom; which is roughly akin to the futility of a gnat attempting to drink up the Atlantic ocean.

But just think: time stands still in hell: it's for the now; it's an existence. People who arrived there yesterday didn't begin doing time in jail expecting to get out some day; nor is perdition a temporary tour of duty like shipping out to Afghanistan. No, people in hell are in it as perpetual residents; they're lifers; they're in a rut. The mental atrophy, and the boredom that must result from that kind of mindless existence is beyond estimation.

In life, everybody enjoys God's blessings; even the really bad people. We're all breathing fresh air, basking in sunshine, drinking cool water, savoring tasty foods, listening to birds chirp, star gazing at night, throwing snow balls at each other in winter, river rafting, fishing, snow skiing, tending gardens, pruning shrubs, greeting friends during the holidays, spending days with grandkids; and all that sort of thing. In the Bible's hell, there are no blessings of any kind at all: only perpetual sadness, vexation, despair, and want.

In hell's unruly society; it's reasonable to expect quarrels, bickering, hard feelings, vendettas, rivalry, selfishness, insensitivity, irritation, aggravation, and ugly words exchanged between people. Is there really any good reason to be courteous and/or respect your fellow man's human rights in hell; or to be kind, forgiving, affable, genial, courteous, cordial, charitable, altruistic, tolerant, generous, and patient? I was once discussing the netherworld with a co-worker and he remarked: "Hell won't be so bad; I'll have plenty of friends down there". Yes, he probably will have lots of friends in hell; but I really don't think he should count on them being friendly.

And the din: think of the volume of noise down there with all the wailing and sobbing, and the screams, the moans, the shrieks, yelps, howls, and gnashing teeth. I can only imagine how annoying it must be in hell with its thousands and millions of people making all that kind of racket.

But just imagine bringing with you a craving for tobacco with none available. Or longing for a cocktail with no liquor in sight. A desire for music, with no way to produce it. A skill for writing, with no pen and paper. Yearning for a walk out in nature, with no world to do it in.

People in hell will never again smell a sea breeze, sit in the shade of a tree, take deep breaths of mountain-fresh air, play at sports, hear a bird chirp, see a sunset, watch a lunar eclipse, jog in the park, strum a guitar, enjoy a Christmas dinner with loved ones; nor make little pigs of themselves gobbling barbecued spare ribs and corn on the 4th of July.

Sports and recreation are gone: no more World Series, no more Super Bowl, no more Olympics, no more Las Vegas, no more Indian casinos, no more lottery, no more Lego World, no more Sea World, no more NASCAR, no more golf, no more surfing, et al.

No baths, no showers, no sleep, no TV, no radio, no iPods, no computers, no Twitter, no texting, no FaceBook, no Instagram, no YouTube, no MySpace, no internet, no clean sheets, no breakfast, no lunch, and no dinner. No snacks, no gum, no candy, no flowers, no parks, no rivers, no snow, no seasons, no picnics, no malls, no fast food, no trades, no careers, no trendy fashions, no jewelry, no cosmetics, no concerts, no operas, and no hobbies; absolutely nothing of this world that brings people the pleasures and the satisfactions of just being alive.

No pets are allowed in hell and no flowers or vegetation of any kind. The absence of birds, fish, and animals of course precludes the citizens of hell ever again spending a day at the zoo. The one advantage of the lack of pets and vegetation in hell is the absence of fleas, mosquitoes, and allergies. I suppose you could say that's at least one good thing about it. There's a bright side to everything I guess; even to that place.

UPDATE: 6 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 441,882 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since Feb 05, 2019.
_

 

[Adziilii]

.
● Matt 13:42 . . there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

I was baptized an infant into the Roman Catholic Church; and was eventually enrolled in catechism where I completed First Holy Communion and Confirmation. Although catechism did a good job of instilling within me the reality of hell's eternal fires; it wasn't until I saw a painting by Gustave Doré depicting a scene from Dante Alighieri's Inferno that I realized the degree of despair gripping the minds and hearts of people in hell.

People down there know it's permanent, but probably hoping against hope that it isn't. That's what makes hell so much worse than any other source of misery one can possibly imagine. If only they could see a light at the end of the tunnel; but that's just it: there is no end of the tunnel; it's like a Gerbil exercise wheel; within which the little rodents run and run and run but get nowhere.

They say hope springs eternal in the human heart. Well; not down there. No; down there hope is futile. The fires are bad enough; but it's the permanence of hell that I would imagine hurts the most.

I sometimes wish there were tour buses to hell so people could see what's in store for them down there. Maybe it would motivate them to begin using what time they have remaining to prepare themselves for the worst when they pass on.

UPDATE: 8 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 589,176 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since Feb 05, 2019.
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