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Heaven

alasdair22

New Member
Have you ever wondered what Heaven would be like, if you would ever get there, what you would do there and who you meet? The answers are already in the Bible! For example, Jesus raised people from the dead, so followers of Jesus could also raise people from the dead. Jesus walked on water, so followers of Jesus could also walk on water. In fact with faith, followers of Jesus could do anything.


So why don't they? Well, do people follow Jesus? – that is the first question. A careful look at the Bible and comparing it with society suggests not – after all, Jesus did not go into churches and participate in pointless traditions – in fact he denounced them and overturned the money tables and accused the teachers of the Law of hypocrisy.


Why then do Christians engage in similar behaviour to those teachers of the Law? Looking at the Bible we see that much of it was written by a man called Paul, on whose letters the modern day church system is based. Paul was not an eyewitness of Jesus, yet he sets up the church traditions and advocates payment of priests! So can someone who accepts and follows Paul be classed as a follower of Jesus?


What does it mean to be a follower of Jesus? Does it mean to accept the teachings of the Apocrypha, the Pope, your priests, other Christians, historical Saints, the Apostles, church traditions, Moses and the Ten Commandments – or does it simply mean to do what Jesus says? Clearly it just means to do what Jesus says. Following Jesus is precisely that – doing what he says. So what does he say? Jesus says a lot of things, but mostly his teachings are focused on helping the poor, sick and outcasts to society. Love the Lord your God and love your neighbour as yourself. Loving the Lord includes rejection of teaching that goes against what Jesus says, and that includes the teaching of Paul. Loving your neighbour as yourself includes helping the huge number of people in the world who live in poverty; give them food, heal them, provide sanitation and clean water and proper housing. Loving your neighbour as yourself also includes teaching others to do the same (follow Jesus, reject teaching that says differently and help the poor).


It would be great if people would follow Jesus just because it is the right thing to do; unfortunately the “common sense” prejudices of society view true self-sacrificial living, love and following Jesus to be “foolish” and people overwhelmingly choose to believe in Paul (whose letters state that you don't need to follow Jesus because everything's a free gift from God). The teachings of Jesus are seen by most to be too difficult (give up what you have and follow him). Yet God will honour and help all those who follow him to the extent that they don't need to worry about where their food or clothing is coming from.


This creates a huge problem. Essentially half the world bears the sins of the other half, and the half that causes the suffering won't accept that they are doing this, and flatly refuse to follow Jesus, purely because that is the established tradition over thousands of years and because Paul says you don't have to. If you don't believe me then think about it – how many people do you know that do what Jesus says to do? Be honest with yourself. A priest might look good in his fancy clothing, but in actual fact he is being paid to teach a religion that involves directing money, time and resources into his or her own wage and into the church building – not into helping the poor.


So it is time to enact a change in society. A tsunami has been predicted to occur on the 1st of April 2007, which will kick start the end time events. Hopefully the miracle of prediction, the beginning of fulfillment of Bible prophesy and the proof shown on the website (Google for "Proof for Christianity") will encourage people to follow Jesus and in doing so, help those who are in suffering.
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
alasdair22 said:
So it is time to enact a change in society. A tsunami has been predicted to occur on the 1st of April 2007, which will kick start the end time events. Hopefully the miracle of prediction, the beginning of fulfillment of Bible prophesy and the proof shown on the website (Google for "Proof for Christianity") will encourage people to follow Jesus and in doing so, help those who are in suffering.

My, but what a cheerful outlook...................by the way, is the 1st April significant ?
 

alasdair22

New Member
Yes, here's a press release. You'll have to see the wesbite for pictures - I'm not allowed to post URLs here yet.

Tsunami Predicted for the 1st April 2007

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The teachings of Jesus show us that we must sell our possessions, give the money to the poor, then follow him; a teaching seen as foolish even by most church-going Christians. In general, people do not follow this teaching. The result is that for every person in rich Western society, there is someone in the world living on less than the equivalent of $1 (50p) a day – about a billion people. A further 1.5 billion live on less than $2 a day, meaning that about half the world’s population is in poverty. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]In order to alleviate the suffering of the poor and to provide a means for people to repent from their sins, God has arranged for an end. Plagues are necessary (a) to get the attention of those who would otherwise be apathetic to the plight of the poor, and (b) to begin the destruction of what has resulted from not following Jesus – the products of our own wisdom, the infrastructure of our self-centred capitalist society. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The first of these plagues is a tsunami, predicted to hit the East Coast of the USA on 1st April 2007. This date is significant because (a) it is Palm Sunday, celebrating the return of Jesus to Jerusalem and (b) it is All Fools' Day. Solomon and wisdom are the number of the beast[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif] and foolishness is the opposite of wisdom. As stated above, following the commandments of Jesus is seen as foolish by modern society. Therefore All Fools' Day is a day of anti-wisdom and destruction of the beast. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Emphasis is placed in the Bible about not knowing when things will happen (Luke 12,40: "And you, too, must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you are not expecting him."). Therefore, because the date is predicted, you can be sure that no one will expect the tsunami to happen on that day (it would be foolish wouldn’t it?). [/FONT]
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
alasdair22 said:
Yes, here's a press release. You'll have to see the wesbite for pictures - I'm not allowed to post URLs here yet.

Tsunami Predicted for the 1st April 2007

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The teachings of Jesus show us that we must sell our possessions, give the money to the poor, then follow him; a teaching seen as foolish even by most church-going Christians. In general, people do not follow this teaching. The result is that for every person in rich Western society, there is someone in the world living on less than the equivalent of $1 (50p) a day – about a billion people. A further 1.5 billion live on less than $2 a day, meaning that about half the world’s population is in poverty. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]In order to alleviate the suffering of the poor and to provide a means for people to repent from their sins, God has arranged for an end. Plagues are necessary (a) to get the attention of those who would otherwise be apathetic to the plight of the poor, and (b) to begin the destruction of what has resulted from not following Jesus – the products of our own wisdom, the infrastructure of our self-centred capitalist society. [/FONT]

As far as the above is concerned, itis strange that my wife and I were talking about that exact subject a couple of days ago.

We do have savings; we don't give to charities often (we would rather give our time), but sure, I hate the fact that there are very poor people throughout the world.

what could I achieve ? If I gave away all our savings, I would worry about my wife and Sons; I take my responsibilities as a father and husband seriously.

I even recogtnise that if I was fitter, and single, I would want to go and help out in the third world; I wouldn't care what work I was doing, as long as it was productive.

I have, infact, toyed with the idea of gathering like-minded people so that - as a large group - we could make a difference. I actually tried to do that in my early twenties, only to find that the support I was given by people I had coopted fast disappeared as the time of action came closer.

As for Tsunamis, even if there was one on the 1st April, I would think it would have much more to do with weather conditions than with God; but I respect your beliefs.
 

Seraphiel

Member
A tsunami?!? Ai... I wished I asked for a swimsuit this christmas.
The end of times was already predicted several times. The only problem is time never stops. Why are people so afraid of dying? It's the same as being born but just the other way around. We shouldn't be afraid for the death of man-kind. We will all live on at the 'other side'.

Don't panic live happy!
 

alasdair22

New Member
michel said:
As far as the above is concerned, itis strange that my wife and I were talking about that exact subject a couple of days ago.

We do have savings; we don't give to charities often (we would rather give our time), but sure, I hate the fact that there are very poor people throughout the world.

what could I achieve ? If I gave away all our savings, I would worry about my wife and Sons; I take my responsibilities as a father and husband seriously.

I even recogtnise that if I was fitter, and single, I would want to go and help out in the third world; I wouldn't care what work I was doing, as long as it was productive.

I have, infact, toyed with the idea of gathering like-minded people so that - as a large group - we could make a difference. I actually tried to do that in my early twenties, only to find that the support I was given by people I had coopted fast disappeared as the time of action came closer.

As for Tsunamis, even if there was one on the 1st April, I would think it would have much more to do with weather conditions than with God; but I respect your beliefs.

Sounds like you have really good ideas. I appreciate the problems of family in this society (in a Christian society it would be quite different). In your circumstances I would be trying to convince my family that going to Africa, helping and living there would be the best thing to do - giving financial resources to those who clearly needed it and when it ran out then I would just be teaching people to follow Jesus (and because the money had run out I'd be able to teach the whole Gospel including giving all your things away and following him). I intend to go to Africa in the near future (sometime after 1st of April).
 

Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
Have you ever wondered what Heaven would be like, if you would ever get there, what you would do there and who you meet? The answers are already in the Bible! For example, Jesus raised people from the dead, so followers of Jesus could also raise people from the dead. Jesus walked on water, so followers of Jesus could also walk on water. In fact with faith, followers of Jesus could do anything.
I do not believe in Heaven as a place, no Resurrection of bodies etc See my recent post http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?p=699873#post699873


So why don't they? Well, do people follow Jesus? – that is the first question. A careful look at the Bible and comparing it with society suggests not – after all, Jesus did not go into churches and participate in pointless traditions – in fact he denounced them and overturned the money tables and accused the teachers of the Law of hypocrisy.
People try to follow the teachings of Jesus but we are sinners so fail.
God offers through Jesus infinate love and infinate forgiveness.


Why then do Christians engage in similar behaviour to those teachers of the Law? Looking at the Bible we see that much of it was written by a man called Paul, on whose letters the modern day church system is based. Paul was not an eyewitness of Jesus, yet he sets up the church traditions and advocates payment of priests! So can someone who accepts and follows Paul be classed as a follower of Jesus?
Paul indeed never met Jesus... However he had three things on his side
1 He truly Loved Jesus
2 he became the most effective of the apostles
3 his writing were preserved.

Till recently I was bothered by this. But now I can see that had in not been for Paul, we would not have many of Christ's teachings, or even have the form of our communion service.
That his background influenced his teachings is true, but mostly what he taught follows the teachings of Jesus.

What does it mean to be a follower of Jesus? Does it mean to accept the teachings of the Apocrypha, the Pope, your priests, other Christians, historical Saints, the Apostles, church traditions, Moses and the Ten Commandments – or does it simply mean to do what Jesus says? Clearly it just means to do what Jesus says. Following Jesus is precisely that – doing what he says. So what does he say? Jesus says a lot of things, but mostly his teachings are focused on helping the poor, sick and outcasts to society. Love the Lord your God and love your neighbour as yourself. Loving the Lord includes rejection of teaching that goes against what Jesus says, and that includes the teaching of Paul. Loving your neighbour as yourself includes helping the huge number of people in the world who live in poverty; give them food, heal them, provide sanitation and clean water and proper housing. Loving your neighbour as yourself also includes teaching others to do the same (follow Jesus, reject teaching that says differently and help the poor).
To be a Christian by definition is to follow Christ Jesus. It does not dot the I's or cross the T's for us. In many ways we must find our own path of salvation.
Jesus gave us a new covenant , so we are not bound by Jewish teachings.
You have listed many things Jesus taught... That is our route... all we must try to do is follow it in the love of God.


It would be great if people would follow Jesus just because it is the right thing to do; unfortunately the “common sense” prejudices of society view true self-sacrificial living, love and following Jesus to be “foolish” and people overwhelmingly choose to believe in Paul (whose letters state that you don't need to follow Jesus because everything's a free gift from God). The teachings of Jesus are seen by most to be too difficult (give up what you have and follow him). Yet God will honour and help all those who follow him to the extent that they don't need to worry about where their food or clothing is coming from.
Jesus asked his disciples to give up every thing and follow him, he did not ask that of us. Of course we can do that and it would be a sure path.
However the world requires more than Preachers. The world requires men of faith Vision and the fruits of their hard working hands.
We can all find a way to serve God.


This creates a huge problem. Essentially half the world bears the sins of the other half, and the half that causes the suffering won't accept that they are doing this, and flatly refuse to follow Jesus, purely because that is the established tradition over thousands of years and because Paul says you don't have to. If you don't believe me then think about it – how many people do you know that do what Jesus says to do? Be honest with yourself. A priest might look good in his fancy clothing, but in actual fact he is being paid to teach a religion that involves directing money, time and resources into his or her own wage and into the church building – not into helping the poor.
Neither Sin nor Priests are the problem....
WE ARE.
God wants your love ...
That means loving your fellow man... and all that that entails...
we must chose our selves what we can do... and do it.

So it is time to enact a change in society. A tsunami has been predicted to occur on the 1st of April 2007, which will kick start the end time events. Hopefully the miracle of prediction, the beginning of fulfillment of Bible prophesy and the proof shown on the website (Google for "Proof for Christianity") will encourage people to follow Jesus and in doing so, help those who are in suffering
God does not punish or tempt us , we do not bare each others sins.
Jesus has told us that he has paid for all our sins.
God has infinite Love, Infinite Forgiveness.
It is for us to Love God through Jesus and try to follow his path.
 

alasdair22

New Member
Terrywoodenpic said:
Jesus has told us that he has paid for all our sins.

That depends on who you conceive Jesus to be. He said things like if you give water to the least person then you are giving it to him. In our society, about half the population bear the sins of the other half.
 

xexon

Destroyer of Worlds
Heaven is just your original home state.

It isn't "up there" somewhere beyond the clouds.

Its inside of you, as you. The door swings open... from inside. The gate is within. Just as Jesus and others have tried in vain to reveal.

The idea of it being an elevated place is inaccurate. It is an elevated state of consciousness. Elevated because of where you are now.

A low state of consciousness. Very low.


x
 

joeboonda

Well-Known Member
The opening post concerns me greatly but I will just say a couple things. It is true that we should do what Jesus said, treat people how we would want to be treated, feed, clothe, teach, the poor, etc. But, doing those things will NOT earn a person a place in Heaven. Nobody can earn their way to Heaven by good works. The Bible says that we are saved by grace through faith in what Jesus did on the cross, that He paid for all our sins and offers salvation freely to anyone who trusts in Him. That we are saved UNTO good works, not by good works. Another thing, Paul met Jesus on the road to Damascus in a very startling way to say the least. Paul is considered an apostle because of that, the least, but still an apostle. His and other NT epistles taught us how to conduct orderly worship, how to feed the poor, the widows, etc., and how to effectively live for the Lord and spread His Gospel. They met everyday for worship and study, and gave offering on the first day of the week, the day Christ rose from the dead. They admonished us not to forsake the asssembling of ourselves together, to edify each other, to learn, to produce missionaries, doctors, preachers, evangelists, to give and use the money to help the poor. There is nothing wrong with going to church and giving at your local church of your time, resources, and energy, etc. But, not to earn salvation, but because we already have been given eternal life freely, the moment we first believed in Jesus.
 

xexon

Destroyer of Worlds
Your belief in Jesus will NOT get you into heaven.

Walking the path he laid out will.

But Christians are lead in the opposite direction. They are told to seek heaven beyond the sky. If you want to approach the gate, you must seek it from within your deepest self.

It exists nowhere else.


x
 

joeboonda

Well-Known Member
Ephians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.


The Bible CLEARLY teaches we are saved by faith, by simply believing in Jesus, and the above passage clearly teaches we are saved UNTO good works, that is the good works follow, are a result of our salvation, which is FREE, the moment we first believed:

Romans 5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. 16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. 17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) 18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
  1. John 3:15
    That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
    John 3:16
    For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
    John 3:18
    He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
    John 3:36
    He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
    John 5:24
    Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
    John 6:35
    And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
    And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
    John 6:47
    Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
    John 7:38
    He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
    John 11:25
    Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
    John 11:26
    And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
    John 12:44
    Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me.
    John 12:46
    I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.
    John 14:12
    Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
    Acts 10:43
    To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
    Romans 1:16
    For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
    Romans 3:26
    To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
    Romans 4:5
    But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
    Romans 9:33
    As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
    Romans 10:4
    For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
    Romans 10:10
    For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
    Romans 10:11
    For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
    1 Peter 2:6
    Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
    1 John 5:1
    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
    1 John 5:5
    Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
  2. 1 John 5:10
    He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
 

joeboonda

Well-Known Member
Just a little more:

John 20:31
But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
1:12
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
  1. 6:29
    ... This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
  2. 17:20
    Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
    20:31
    But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
    Acts 10:43
    To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
    13:39
  3. And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses
  4. 16:31
    And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
  5. Romans 3:22
    Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe...
  6. 3:26
    To declare...his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
    4:3
    For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
    4:5
    But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
    4:11
    ...that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
  7. 4:24
    But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
  8. 10:4
    For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
    10:9
    That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
    10:10
    For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
    Galatians 2:16
    Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
    [*]3:6
    Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
    3:22
    But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
    2 Thessalonians 1:10
    ...and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
    [*]1 Timothy 1:16
    ... for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.
    2 Timothy 1:12
    ...for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.
    Titus 3:8
    This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.
    Hebrews 4:3
    For we which have believed do enter into rest...
    [*]10:39
    ...but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
    James 2:23
    And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
    1 Peter 2:6
    Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
    1 John 3:23
    And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ...
    [*]5:5
    Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
    5:10
    He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
    5:13
    These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

    [*]
 
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