1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Heaven

Discussion in 'Journals' started by Snow White, May 28, 2022.

  1. Snow White

    Snow White Veteran Member

    Joined:
    May 2, 2019
    Messages:
    15,558
    Ratings:
    +12,671
    Religion:
    Spiritual
    My dad passed away some years ago. Strangely enough, just about everyone in the immediate family, including me, have had dreams about him since. And some of these dreams basically amount to him telling us he's okay and that he's in heaven.

    My trying to be open-minded, including on a spiritual level, affords me to consider that possibility that there might be something more to the dreams. Perhaps he did try to give a message?

    This message haunts me too, though. I see heaven as perhaps being for Christians. I'm not a Christian. I don't want to be a Christian.

    So it seems the odds are slim that I will ever see my dad again some day. And I wish I knew how to reassure myself about it, that despite of that, it may be okay.

    But I'm also torn on a philosophical level because my dad while on Earth would want me to choose my own path, no matter what.

    So it's like tough love. Choosing what your dad would want for you, for you, but not choosing what your dad might want for him.
     
    • Friendly Friendly x 6
  2. JustGeorge

    JustGeorge Unknown Member
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2020
    Messages:
    9,033
    Ratings:
    +18,270
    Religion:
    Hindu
    I think there are Heaven realms in most religions(really, all that I can think of). I don't think Christianity has a monopoly on it(though they might say they do).
     
    • Like Like x 3
    • Friendly Friendly x 2
  3. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2017
    Messages:
    36,405
    Ratings:
    +10,519
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    I do not believe that heaven is only for Christians. All the major religions have a belief in a place like heaven or paradise.
    My dad died in 1964 and I believe I will see him again in heaven. My mother later told me he had become a nonbeliever but I don't think that matters because he was a good person.
     
    • Friendly Friendly x 4
    • Winner Winner x 1
  4. Stonetree

    Stonetree Total Carbohydrate
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2021
    Messages:
    1,713
    Ratings:
    +850
    Religion:
    Agnostic
    Religion or belief in a Deity or even Atheism is a matter of the heart and mind. I believe if there is a heaven it is a matter of your choice whether you see your Dad again. You chose where you belong. Some believe you make that choice here and now. No one decides who you are. You decide who and where you will be; not some tag saying I'm a Christian.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  5. Stonetree

    Stonetree Total Carbohydrate
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2021
    Messages:
    1,713
    Ratings:
    +850
    Religion:
    Agnostic
    My dad died Christmas morning,1963. I don't know if I'll see him again but he is always in my heart.
     
    • Like Like x 3
    • Friendly Friendly x 2
  6. paradox

    paradox Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2022
    Messages:
    592
    Ratings:
    +159
    Religion:
    Vampirism
    Like others said, it seems like there are other religions who claim heaven, one difference with Christianity however is that Christianity is the "inventor" of heaven so to speak, although there are indications of resurrection in old testament although Jews don't believe in eternal live AFAIK.

    Regarding your dreams the bible does say a lot about dreams, dreams (not always) can be message from God, not necessarily to one who is believer of God. (like yourself)
    For example in the book of Genesis Pharaoh who was not Jew (believer in Yahweh) and likely not believer at all had dreams and Joseph (Jewish) out of many dream interpretators was the only one able to explain his dreams and that become true and he was rewarded for that.
    If you wonder why would God give dreams to Pharaoh who wasn't believer in Yahweh, here is what Joseph said about interpretation of dreams: Genesis 40:8 which seems to indicate that for valid interpretation God is required.

    For example Prophet Daniel (like Joseph) had the ability to interpret dreams: Daniel 1:17
    What I'm trying to say here is that for valid interpretation of dream you need someone who is gifted by God's spirit rather than resorting to someone who does it by the book such as dream book, this certainly won't work.
    I know such people exist, a friar who was my teacher was able to interpret dreams and all of his interpretation become true.

    The bible however says nothing about (passed away or a live) people who may be initiators (instead of God) of some ones dreams, no such thing.
    But there is other biblical explanation if you're sure that dreams were from your father rather than from God:

    In Matthew 2:13 the angel of the Lord was the initiator of dreams rather than God, however in these dreams there was no need for interpretation.
    The point here is "the angel", according to other passages from the bible people have their angel guardian and these may appear, ex in Acts 12:15 they thought Peter's angel come instead of Peter.

    Therefore as you indicate based on dreams of your family you are certain that dreams are not false because several people had dreams about your father, therefore if those dreams are not from God then they must from your father's angel, but not from your father directly since that can't be scripturally validated, hence why there is saying that passed away people can't communicate back.
    See also Job 33:14-17 on why passed away people may not be able to directly be initiators of dreams.

    You should better ask yourself one other question, if your father was not Christian or not believer at all then how is it possible that he may end up in heaven?

    Well there is biblical explanation for that too, because people may go to heaven regardless of their atheist position but under some circumstances.
     
    #6 paradox, May 29, 2022
    Last edited: May 29, 2022
    • Useful Useful x 1
  7. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Be your own guru

    Joined:
    May 5, 2007
    Messages:
    29,842
    Ratings:
    +13,912
    Religion:
    Atheist, Advaita (Non-duality), Orthodox Hindu
    All religions have the heaven (and hell) concept. Dreams do not mean much. I usually compare them to defragmentation in a computer, brain trying to sort out memories of the day, rejecting what is not worth saving, a sort of clean up. My elders also are no more, but their memories are with me to cherish (or hate, in case of ignorant people). That should be enough.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  8. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2017
    Messages:
    36,405
    Ratings:
    +10,519
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    What does the Bible say are the circumstances under which a atheist may go to heaven?
     
  9. paradox

    paradox Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2022
    Messages:
    592
    Ratings:
    +159
    Religion:
    Vampirism
    See Romans 2:12-16

    Basically people who didn't have a chance to hear the gospel and accept it will be judged based on their works, "their law is conscience".

    An atheist however who heard the gospel or knows it but refuses to accept it cannot have an excuse before Christ.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  10. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2017
    Messages:
    36,405
    Ratings:
    +10,519
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    By the mid-1840s about 95% of the world population had heard the gospel message.

    "A study of the spread of Christianity made by scholars of the 1840’s, convinced them that the message of Christ had, by their day, already encircled the globe. The Gospel was being taught in all the continents. By 1844 it was being taught even in the interior of Africa, not by solitary missionaries, but on an organized scale. A commercial history of East Africa states: “Christian missions began their activities amongst the African people in 1844. (Year Book and Guide to East Africa, Ed. by Robert Hale Ltd., London, 1953, p. 44)

    In Our Day in the Light of Prophecy, Spicer wrote that the Gospel in his day had been spread ‘to ninety-five per cent of the inhabitants of the earth.’ He added: “It was in 1842 that five treaty-ports in China were open to commerce and to missions—advance steps in the opening of all China to the Gospel. In 1844 Turkey was prevailed upon to recognise the right of the Moslems to become Christians, reversing all Moslem tradition. In 1844 Alan Gardiner established the South American Mission. In 1842 Livingstone’s determination was formed to open the African interior.”

    There were many additional references which made it clear that the Gospel of Christ, and its teachers, had entered every continent by the year 1844, spreading the Word of Jesus the Christ throughout the world."
    http://bahai-library.com/pdf/s/sears_thief_night.pdf

    Certainly in all civilized countries everyone has heard the gospel message. Most atheists live in civilized countries and they have heard the gospel message but they have rejected it. That would mean that according to your beliefs atheists do not have an excuse before Christ, so they will not go to Heaven.

    To carry that further, it would not be only the atheists who have no excuse, it would be anyone who has heard the gospel message and rejected it. That is approximately two-thirds of the world population who will not go to Heaven, since only about one-third of the world population are Christians who have accepted the gospel message.
     
  11. paradox

    paradox Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2022
    Messages:
    592
    Ratings:
    +159
    Religion:
    Vampirism
    We can speculate about statistics of course, but I think hearing the gospel is one thing while understanding properly requires a bit more.
    See Matthew 19:20-30 where disciples of Jesus concluded that it's impossible to go to heaven, by saying "Who then can be saved?"

    See also Romans 3:10 and Psalms 143:2 which say that no one among man is Just before God.
    Also Luke 23:42-43 where a criminal goes to heaven without confessing his sins proves an exception that is not in line with Catholic teaching that no one with grave sin enters heavens, but the trick is in that one may confess sins before God alone if there is no option for confession which is what the church approves.

    John 3:16 also says that believing in Jesus is more than hearing (and understanding) of gospel.
    Also 1 Timothy 1:13 shows how blasphemer got grace even though he knew about gospel and Jesus, but Jesus said blasphemy will not be forgiven (although the context is different)

    Many verses may be pulled out regarding this topic which show the ways of the Lord are truly strange.
    In any case the word of God cannot be abolished (meaning no verse can be a lie however contradictory), proper interpretation requires holy spirit and may give answer to everything.

    An atheist ie. may turn to Jesus just before he dies, ex. in fear, and this may save him if he is truly honest.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  12. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Be your own guru

    Joined:
    May 5, 2007
    Messages:
    29,842
    Ratings:
    +13,912
    Religion:
    Atheist, Advaita (Non-duality), Orthodox Hindu
    Same is true for Muslims and Bahais too. Those who have heard of the 'manifestation' of Allah and have not accepted him are going to suffer. The messengers of Allah must be accepted. Although Bahais consider Mirza Ghulam Ahmad to be fake. Ahmadiyyas would say the same for Bahais, because for them, Mirza was the Mahdi. For Bahais, Bab is the Mahdi.
     
  13. Truth in love

    Truth in love Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 29, 2022
    Messages:
    1,105
    Ratings:
    +159
    Religion:
    Restored Church of Jesus Christ
    Great question.


    1. I’d be curious as to what about being Christian bothers you? (Likely a long topic)

    2. The Bible teaches that God is no respecter of persons. So it would seem that we will be judged by what we do. I’ve known many loving people who did not profess a belief in Christ. I would say they are missing out, but if judged by works they would seem to be doing better than many who profess a belief in Christ and act like jerks.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  14. Snow White

    Snow White Veteran Member

    Joined:
    May 2, 2019
    Messages:
    15,558
    Ratings:
    +12,671
    Religion:
    Spiritual
    Their issues with homosexuality, transgender people (especially male-to-females), their issues with socialism, liberal viewpoints. Their support of Trump and Pence, evangelism in general, their support of Capitalism to the extent they support it. Also add to that I never really feel I get satisfactory answers when asking deep questions from certain faiths. There's more I don't like too though. Creationism. Hell doctrine. Prosperity gospel. 700 club.
     
  15. Truth in love

    Truth in love Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 29, 2022
    Messages:
    1,105
    Ratings:
    +159
    Religion:
    Restored Church of Jesus Christ
    We be never been a fan of prosperity gospel.

    socialism is often rejected as it preaches hate, robbery and murder. Each of these violating core commandments.


    Capitalism is not taught in the Bible. Greed is an issue which the Bible condemns and often capitalism is conflated with greed. (It can be greedy, but often it is not).


    Deep questions is an area which I’ve often felt people won’t discuss.
    On the topic of lgbqt Christian belief and liberal view points often don’t mesh. That said some do teach a lot of kindness and acceptance even if they don’t agree with all behaviors.

    I think most of what is taught on hell is inaccurate but that too big a topic for the evening.

    Not sure if that helps any or not. But thanks for sharing.
     
    • Friendly Friendly x 2
Loading...