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Heaven vs the Kingdom

where are you going?

  • straight up to heaven

    Votes: 1 20.0%
  • going to the grave and wait for bodily resurrection

    Votes: 3 60.0%
  • thought it was the same place

    Votes: 1 20.0%

  • Total voters
    5

JJ50

Well-Known Member
i do not see the Kingdom existing in any physical type of environment on this plnet. evolution of consciousness will eventually transform humans to whst they were before placement into physical body only much more advenced, capable sharing and be grateful for G-d's care.
Physical body is not good for human spirit but it was necessary as teaching tool for our souls because here true good and evil exist.

You have a good imagination.:D
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
i do not see the Kingdom existing in any physical type of environment on this plnet.

Why not....God's original purpose for humans on this planet was to be in a caretaker role, given God's attributes so as to represent him here on earth. We are made in God's image and likeness for a reason. Earth was to be our permanent home. But since the humans disobeyed their Creator, and alienated themselves and their children from him, they needed a rescue mission and a savior to take them back to God. That is what the Kingdom is for.

evolution of consciousness will eventually transform humans to whst they were before placement into physical body only much more advenced, capable sharing and be grateful for G-d's care.
Physical body is not good for human spirit but it was necessary as teaching tool for our souls because here true good and evil exist.

Can I ask you where you got those ideas? They certainly do not come from scripture. And since you identify as Christian, can you tell me where I will find these things in Christ's teachings?
Humans have no pre-existence. Before our parents conceived us, we did not exist. Again, where does this idea come from?

What do you mean by "placement into a physical body"? Our souls are us, not something separate from our body. The "soul" in scripture is a living, breathing creature....man or animal. The word never means a disembodied spirit.

The human body is fully mortal, designed for a physical life here on earth. Since the tree of life in the garden was there to keep the humans alive forever, death was never supposed to happen.
 

leov

Well-Known Member
Why not....God's original purpose for humans on this planet was to be in a caretaker role, given God's attributes so as to represent him here on earth. We are made in God's image and likeness for a reason. Earth was to be our permanent home. But since the humans disobeyed their Creator, and alienated themselves and their children from him, they needed a rescue mission and a savior to take them back to God. That is what the Kingdom is for.



Can I ask you where you got those ideas? They certainly do not come from scripture. And since you identify as Christian, can you tell me where I will find these things in Christ's teachings?
Humans have no pre-existence. Before our parents conceived us, we did not exist. Again, where does this idea come from?

What do you mean by "placement into a physical body"? Our souls are us, not something separate from our body. The "soul" in scripture is a living, breathing creature....man or animal. The word never means a disembodied spirit.

The human body is fully mortal, designed for a physical life here on earth. Since the tree of life in the garden was there to keep the humans alive forever, death was never supposed to happen.
ideas? they are in the Bible too, " I am not of this world", " spirit and truth", 1 Cor 13 especially v8 to 13. We are eternal soul -spirit - mind in temporal physical body as G-d breathed into pile of minerals as G-d copy below and, as G-d ,we never die except
physical body and animal soul (life force). " Father have many dwellings ".
 

leov

Well-Known Member
ideas? they are in the Bible too, " I am not of this world", " spirit and truth", 1 Cor 13 especially v8 to 13. We are eternal soul -spirit - mind in temporal physical body as G-d breathed into pile of minerals as G-d copy below and, as G-d ,we never die except
physical body and animal soul (life force). " Father have many dwellings ".
BTW. Bible mentioned 'wisdom of Egypt', 'star of magi, 'book of Upright' it gives one treasury chest and much freedom.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
death was never supposed to happen.
nay.....Man was never immortal

Man was a species on Day Six
go forth be fruitful and multiply
dominate all things
no names
no garden
no law

THEN Chapter Two
Adam is a chosen son of God
Eve is a clone....not born of woman
Adam was given his twin sister for a bride

Adam was not the first to walk this earth
He was the first to walk with God

the forbidden fruit was not a test of obedience
It was a test to be sure that Man would be that creature curious
even if death would be the consequence

we are that creature
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
How awful if any of that had credibility.:eek:
the body forms a unique spirit on each occasion

we are here to learn all that we can before we die
the body can do nothing else
not anything more

there is no mystery of life
 

JJ50

Well-Known Member
the body forms a unique spirit on each occasion

we are here to learn all that we can before we die
the body can do nothing else
not anything more

there is no mystery of life

We live and then we die, end of story, imo. There is no evidence to suggest otherwise.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
Some say the kingdom will be here on this earth
even though scripture reports
The Kingdom is NOT of this world
It is within you

and the Carpenter is alleged to have ascended into heaven

So.....which is it?
and where do you think you are going?
If I were not hoping to live forever, without dying, and going six feet under, unless eaten by a shark, or incinerated, I would pick #2.
However, according to God's will, I want to live right through the great tribulation, and Armageddon, right into Paradise... right here on earth.

If Adam had not sinned, there would have been no need for Christ's death, nor the covenant which opened the way for born again - that is, spirit anointed sons, being allowed entry into heaven to be joint heirs with Christ.
So there would have been no kingdom, and no opening to heavenly life.
Adam would have live all his life on a paradise earth... without pain, suffering, and death.

I have heard people say, it would be unfair for God not to take people to heaven to see him in person, but to me, this is like a person saying, "Why did God make me this way - a human?"

The kingdom is heavenly, and not of this earth. It rules over the earth.
 
Last edited:

Thief

Rogue Theologian
in Spanish...the word 'sin'
means ….'without'

Adam did not sin
he proved himself curious
even if death is the consequence

and to live without God
was GOD's intention from the beginning

choosing a specimen and isolating him IS the graden event
an alteration was needed

Man as a species would have overrun the planet and it's resources
before the spirit gaining any maturity

so altering the mind and body of Man was a needed event
and the forbidden fruit was only a ploy
to make certain the alteration had taken hold

we need to be that creature curious
that we turn our thoughts to the pending death
and deeply consider what comes next

and yes
we live without God
God gave Man dominion
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
So...whether it be a kingdom of spirit
or
a kingdom of flesh

which do you seek?

either way....Someone Greater than you will be in charge

up for it?????
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
ideas? they are in the Bible too, " I am not of this world"

Yes, Jesus was sent from heaven, but nowhere does it say that we were. There is no life before birth and no life after death the way LDS believe....because it is not in the Bible. We are formed in the womb of our mothers by the union of her egg with our father’s sperm. Conception takes place and a new life is created, not by God directly, but from the gene pool that exists in both parents. Before that union took place none of us existed anywhere. We do not have a soul "implanted" but "become" a soul when we breathe....just like Adam. A soul needs a body and breath to exist....it cannot exist as a separate, conscious entity. (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 6, 10)

”spirit and truth", 1 Cor 13 especially v8 to 13. We are eternal soul -spirit - mind in temporal physical body as G-d breathed into pile of minerals as G-d copy below and, as G-d ,we never die except physical body and animal soul (life force).

Sorry, but I don't believe that is what those verses are saying at all....

1 Corinthians 13:8-13 says....
“Love never fails. But if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away with; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away with. 9 For we have partial knowledge and we prophesy partially, 10 but when what is complete comes, what is partial will be done away with. 11 When I was a child, I used to speak as a child, to think as a child, to reason as a child; but now that I have become a man, I have done away with the traits of a child. 12 For now we see in hazy outline by means of a metal mirror, but then it will be face-to-face. At present I know partially, but then I will know accurately, just as I am accurately known. 13 Now, however, these three remain: faith, hope, love; but the greatest of these is love.“

The gifts that God gave the first century anointed Christians (those chosen for life in heaven) were given for a time and a reason. When they had accomplished all that they were sent to do, they ceased....each one was a demonstration of what would occur on a grand scale once God’s Kingdom was established on earth....the healing of the sick and the raising of the dead are to be seen in the the new world to come. Speaking in tongues was given to spread the good news about the Kingdom to people of all nations and now we have technology that can cross those barriers. The knowledge they had back then was partial, but now all has been revealed about the "sacred secret". We have the complete word of God and he is guiding his people back to the way he originally intended things to be in Eden. The Kingdom is the government of God, which will see that his will is "done on earth as it is in heaven". It is what Jesus taught us to pray for.

Since the meek are to inherit the earth,obviously there has to be subjects on earth over whom this government rules.

The need to see miracles, Paul said were the traits of a child....so those traits had to be replaced by something that would demonstrate maturity. Christianity was no longer in its infancy, so “faith, hope and love” would be the identifying marks of a true Christian.

" Father have many dwellings "

Yes, in heaven....but not many are chosen for a life in heaven. The vast majority of humankind will live on earth, just as God intended in the first place. Initially only God would have been their Sovereign and lawgiver, but because of the sin of Adam, God's original purpose was derailed temporarily....and the Kingdom is what brings us back to square one. What Adam lost for his children, Jesus bought back for us. God always finishes what he starts. (Isaiah 55:11)

BTW. Bible mentioned 'wisdom of Egypt', 'star of magi, 'book of Upright' it gives one treasury chest and much freedom.

No, that is not a treasure chest...it is full of snakes! "The wisdom of Egypt" was not the wisdom of God. They were worshippers of false deities, so why would God want us to emulate them?

"The star of the magi" was sent by the devil in an attempt to destroy the Christ child before he even had a chance to grow up. The magi were Babylonian astrologers who were duped used by satan to betray Jesus as a newborn King in opposition to a jealous Herod, who then had all the infants 2 years of age and under slaughtered so that nothing would interfere with his sons succeeding him.
.
And I have no idea what a "book of upright'' is......?
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
nay.....Man was never immortal

I never said man was immortal....living forever and immortality are two entirely different things.

Man was a species on Day Six
go forth be fruitful and multiply
dominate all things
no names
no garden
no law

THEN Chapter Two
Adam is a chosen son of God
Eve is a clone....not born of woman
Adam was given his twin sister for a bride

Chapter one is a chronological account of creation....chapter two is a history pertaining just to the humans.

Adam was not the first to walk this earth
He was the first to walk with God

Where will I find this in scripture?

the forbidden fruit was not a test of obedience
It was a test to be sure that Man would be that creature curious
even if death would be the consequence

we are that creature

That is not what the scriptures say to me.

God had been very generous in his provisions for humankind....imagine if we just had grass to eat like a lot of other creatures....yet they seem to be happy just to eat grass all day long. God gave humans an abundance of variety in their food choices, but reserved one tree in the garden as his personal property. It wasn't even a hard test, because they had so many different fruits to choose from...all delicious. Yet the devil planted a seed of doubt about the Creator's motives in withholding that one fruit.

It was a test of their love, and their trust and loyalty to their God, as well as a test of respect for what rightfully belonged to him. They failed that test. You assume that the disobedience was a good thing because it meant that they were curious?....curiosity killed the cat didn't it?....and their curiosity is responsible for killing all of us.....it has resulted in disaster for humankind ever since. (Romans 5:12)

Don't make Adam and his wife into heroes.....I assure you they were not.
 

JJ50

Well-Known Member
I never said man was immortal....living forever and immortality are two entirely different things.



Chapter one is a chronological account of creation....chapter two is a history pertaining just to the humans.



Where will I find this in scripture?



That is not what the scriptures say to me.

God had been very generous in his provisions for humankind....imagine if we just had grass to eat like a lot of other creatures....yet they seem to be happy just to eat grass all day long. God gave humans an abundance of variety in their food choices, but reserved one tree in the garden as his personal property. It wasn't even a hard test, because they had so many different fruits to choose from...all delicious. Yet the devil planted a seed of doubt about the Creator's motives in withholding that one fruit.

It was a test of their love, and their trust and loyalty to their God, as well as a test of respect for what rightfully belonged to him. They failed that test. You assume that the disobedience was a good thing because it meant that they were curious?....curiosity killed the cat didn't it?....and their curiosity is responsible for killing all of us.....it has resulted in disaster for humankind ever since. (Romans 5:12)

Don't make Adam and his wife into heroes.....I assure you they were not.
It is the Biblical god character, which isn't any kind of hero, but an evil psychopath.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Chapter one is a chronological account of creation....chapter two is a history pertaining just to the humans.
nay

Man was created on Day Six
no names
no garden
no law

Day Seven...rest
and nothing more will be created

THEN Chapter Two
which is NOT a retelling of Chapter One
 

leov

Well-Known Member
Yes, Jesus was sent from heaven, but nowhere does it say that we were. There is no life before birth and no life after death the way LDS believe....because it is not in the Bible. We are formed in the womb of our mothers by the union of her egg with our father’s sperm. Conception takes place and a new life is created, not by God directly, but from the gene pool that exists in both parents. Before that union took place none of us existed anywhere. We do not have a soul "implanted" but "become" a soul when we breathe....just like Adam. A soul needs a body and breath to exist....it cannot exist as a separate, conscious entity. (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 6, 10)



Sorry, but I don't believe that is what those verses are saying at all....

1 Corinthians 13:8-13 says....
“Love never fails. But if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away with; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away with. 9 For we have partial knowledge and we prophesy partially, 10 but when what is complete comes, what is partial will be done away with. 11 When I was a child, I used to speak as a child, to think as a child, to reason as a child; but now that I have become a man, I have done away with the traits of a child. 12 For now we see in hazy outline by means of a metal mirror, but then it will be face-to-face. At present I know partially, but then I will know accurately, just as I am accurately known. 13 Now, however, these three remain: faith, hope, love; but the greatest of these is love.“

The gifts that God gave the first century anointed Christians (those chosen for life in heaven) were given for a time and a reason. When they had accomplished all that they were sent to do, they ceased....each one was a demonstration of what would occur on a grand scale once God’s Kingdom was established on earth....the healing of the sick and the raising of the dead are to be seen in the the new world to come. Speaking in tongues was given to spread the good news about the Kingdom to people of all nations and now we have technology that can cross those barriers. The knowledge they had back then was partial, but now all has been revealed about the "sacred secret". We have the complete word of God and he is guiding his people back to the way he originally intended things to be in Eden. The Kingdom is the government of God, which will see that his will is "done on earth as it is in heaven". It is what Jesus taught us to pray for.

Since the meek are to inherit the earth,obviously there has to be subjects on earth over whom this government rules.

The need to see miracles, Paul said were the traits of a child....so those traits had to be replaced by something that would demonstrate maturity. Christianity was no longer in its infancy, so “faith, hope and love” would be the identifying marks of a true Christian.



Yes, in heaven....but not many are chosen for a life in heaven. The vast majority of humankind will live on earth, just as God intended in the first place. Initially only God would have been their Sovereign and lawgiver, but because of the sin of Adam, God's original purpose was derailed temporarily....and the Kingdom is what brings us back to square one. What Adam lost for his children, Jesus bought back for us. God always finishes what he starts. (Isaiah 55:11)



No, that is not a treasure chest...it is full of snakes! "The wisdom of Egypt" was not the wisdom of God. They were worshippers of false deities, so why would God want us to emulate them?

"The star of the magi" was sent by the devil in an attempt to destroy the Christ child before he even had a chance to grow up. The magi were Babylonian astrologers who were duped used by satan to betray Jesus as a newborn King in opposition to a jealous Herod, who then had all the infants 2 years of age and under slaughtered so that nothing would interfere with his sons succeeding him.
.
And I have no idea what a "book of upright'' is......?
This is how it works:
"12 For now we see in hazy outline by means of a metal mirror, but then it will be face-to-face. At present I know partially, but then I will know accurately, just as I am accurately known.
Three stages of evolution - faith ,hope, agape.
Where are you on this ladder?
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
For now we see in hazy outline by means of a metal mirror, but then it will be face-to-face. At present I know partially, but then I will know accurately, just as I am accurately known.
yeah

God and heaven will be able to see you
mind and heart
know the manner of thought and feeling

accurately
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Note, what Paul said : One is known when that one knows . "spirit and truth".
I am not a Pauline.....

my quote comes from the recognition
mind and heart will survive the last breath

dead men do not see or hear
they do not read or listen

communication is therefore...….of mind and heart
directly
 

leov

Well-Known Member
I am not a Pauline.....

my quote comes from the recognition
mind and heart will survive the last breath

dead men do not see or hear
they do not read or listen

communication is therefore...….of mind and heart
directly
Paul speaks correctly. Sure , I know it "partially" now.
 
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