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Featured Heaven and John the Baptist

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by savagewind, Oct 1, 2017.

  1. savagewind

    savagewind Veteran Member
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    I was taught to believe that nobody who had died before Jesus Christ died will ever get to Heaven.
    It is what the Jehovah's Witnesses believe and teach.
    The reason why they think it is true that only people who died after Jesus died will go there is that
    they believe Jesus made the way there and it is written that no one has ever gone to Heaven.... John 3:13
    ...and "David did not ascend into heaven" at Acts of the Apostles 2:34

    I have no reason to doubt that nobody before Jesus lived and died ever reached Heaven.

    I believe in a resurrection. I have no good reason not to.

    Now, imagine the resurrection of John the Baptist and imagine that he will be resurrected to the Earth
    and if the Jehovah's Witnesses get their way, being told the reason why he is on Earth and not in Heaven.

    He will be told that because he had died before Jesus died he won't be seeing Jesus anymore.

    He might say, "it is written that God will satisfy the desire of every living thing and I want to be with Christ in Heaven!"

    And they will try to persuade him not to want that. It is what they do.

    Now imagine the rest of them being told, "no! No Heaven for you!"

    Daniel; Isaiah, Moses (he might be on Earth imo), Able, Noah (he should probably be an Earthling imo), David,
    oh, I don't know who else. I can believe that some of them who made the way for Jesus Christ' coming might be happy to never ever be with God in Heaven, but anyway, that is what they believe, teach, and say that you have to believe it too so that God might view you too as a righteous one and YOU can have access to Heaven according to the Jehovah's Witnesses, but only if you agree with them.

    I don't agree with them. :(
     
  2. pearl

    pearl Well-Known Member

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    They are justified by their faith, just as we all are.
     
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  3. savagewind

    savagewind Veteran Member
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    Do you want to make a point about the subject? Can you?

    The Jehovah's Witnesses believe that Heaven is CLOSED to anyone who died before they believe Jesus Christ died.
    It isn't about faith. It is about timing.
     
  4. savagewind

    savagewind Veteran Member
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    Many people are being taught to believe that when a person lived and died can determine if he or she can be with Christ in Heaven. For those people who lived and died before Jesus Christ did it isn't about belief, faith, and/or righteousness. It is about when they died.
     
  5. Muslim-UK

    Muslim-UK Well-Known Member
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    JW is considered a cult that has made numerous false Prophecies in their Watch Tower magazine. I wouldn't take any notice of what they believed, but do commend them for not accepting the false concept of Trinity.
     
  6. savagewind

    savagewind Veteran Member
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    Thank you for commenting. Have you ever considered that John the Baptist was a real person who lived and died?

    Can you imagine someone putting himself in the way of your going somewhere that you believe you have to go?
     
  7. savagewind

    savagewind Veteran Member
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    I think that for some people their goal is to be side by side with The Lord.
    If they died prior to the death of Jesus Christ and God gave them life again, but life to the Earth before their being taken to Heaven, Jehovah's Witnesses would do anything to convince them that their goal is absolutely wrong.

    The holy ones of old are being pitted against the governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses and all their loyal people.

    I think I know why the governing body says that only those faithful ones who lived and died after Jesus did can ever get to Heaven. The reason begins with their belief that only 144,000 ever do go to Heaven and that 144,000 is a definite number.
     
  8. Kemosloby

    Kemosloby Well-Known Member
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    I can't believe they teach that...that's really funny.
     
  9. savagewind

    savagewind Veteran Member
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    I do not think it is funny. I think it is sad and might be a dangerous idea to believe in.

    Jesus says that how you judge is how you will be judged.
    They say some people who would go where they should can't go where they should.
    They believe they themselves should be admitted to a paradise Earth, but according to the rule, they can't go there.

    I don't think it is as though they are really preventing God's will be done for the holy ones.
    But, why should they feel free to have what they want while taking away the freedom of someone else to have what he wants?

    I think there is enough written about John for me to know he would not be happier to be on Earth forever than to be in Heaven forever.

    There is something funny about the belief though. It seems funny to me to think that any Jehovah's Witness could be a teacher of some of those that died faithful to God before Jesus did.
     
  10. Kemosloby

    Kemosloby Well-Known Member
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    I think it's funny that I have scripture figured out better than the whole organization of Jehovah's Witnesses.
     
  11. pearl

    pearl Well-Known Member

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    Jesus is from the beginning of creation according to Gospel of John. There is no before Jesus.
     
  12. savagewind

    savagewind Veteran Member
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    I trust that is correct.
    But, we are talking about his death. They believe that AFTER his death people putting faith in him and chosen will go to him in Heaven, but the people before that will not.
     
  13. savagewind

    savagewind Veteran Member
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    The Jehovah's Witnesses are forbidden to "figure out" scripture. It isn't funny that you have figured out scripture (I believe it) better than those who say they alone are chosen by God to tell us what it means. It's crazy!
    I imagine that if it played out like they say (I think it won't) some damn fool will be telling Daniel the meaning of what Daniel wrote.
     
  14. Kemosloby

    Kemosloby Well-Known Member
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    Except Daniel is not around to listen. I doubt it will go down that way.
     
  15. David T

    David T Well-Known Member
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    What is time? You see the problem, how you resolve it will be dependent on your perceptions and your perception is dependent upon your resolution. If I write " in order to understand God you must understand nature in order to understand nature you must understand god" is a difficult thing for normal folks. Symbiosis is very clearly not understood.
     
  16. savagewind

    savagewind Veteran Member
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    I believe that Daniel won't be around to listen.
    THEY believe Daniel will be resurrected to the Earth. Some years ago, a house was built for some resurrected servants of God.

    But, I trust that Daniel and the others will be taken straight-away to Heaven at the right time.
     
  17. savagewind

    savagewind Veteran Member
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    I understand that! We shouldn't be talking about me. I am just telling you about what THEY believe and teach.
    If I was still a loyal Jehovah's Witness I would NOT be here (because they are being warned about such places) and I wouldn't listen to someone's weird philosophy because it is against the Jehovah's Witness rule to listen to such as you and me.
     
  18. Kemosloby

    Kemosloby Well-Known Member
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    Some graves opened up in the first resurrection when Jesus was resurrected. He might already be there.
     
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  19. savagewind

    savagewind Veteran Member
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    Yes, I agree he might be. I am not in the business of telling people like it is. I am in the business of telling people what it isn't.
     
  20. David T

    David T Well-Known Member
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    They are normals!!! We can bounce around the world of normals our whole lives, sliding from one "I we believe" to another "I we believe" that is just trying to be "normal". I spend my free time sauntering through the oregon coastal range not hiking that's "normals"!! Sauntering is an interesting word. Muir uses it in an interesting way.
     
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