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Heaven and Hell

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by xander-, Nov 16, 2004.

  1. xander-

    xander- Member

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    This is NOT a opinion, its a question, directed to people who belive in heaven and hell, christians, and/or people who has a large knowledge about the bible.

    My question is, is hell in the bible? I mean, where does the concept of hell come from? The original bibles, or is it a idea that came out in the middle ages?
    Please enlighten me.

    -Xander
     
  2. linwood

    linwood Well-Known Member

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    I am not a Christian but I believe I have enough knowledge of the Bible to form and educated opinion on your question.

    Hell is mentioned in the Bible the original copies.

    Psalms 9:17
    The wicked shall be turned into hell, [and] all the nations that forget God.
    Deut.32:22
    For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.
    2 Samuel 22:6
    The sorrows of hell compassed me about; the snares of death prevented me;
    Psalms 16:10
    For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

    There are many more references to hell in the Bible.
    Go here and do a word search..
    blueletterbible.org

    I think the common modern idea of hell was formed more by Dauntes Inferno than the Bible itself though.
    Oddly enough most of the fear of Hell in the Bible occurs in the NT not the OT.
    There is mention of Hell in the OT but it is not used as a fearful motivator the way it is in the NT.
    The concepts of Satan as an individual evil who rules over Hell is an idea that seems to have originated in the writings of the first Christians.
    It was expanded on in the middle ages by the Church in order to solidify their power.

    This is merely my opinion.
     
  3. Ronald

    Ronald Well-Known Member

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    In the Hebrew it is She'ol, burial place, grave and/or tomb, etc.
    In Greek, #1 Hades grave and/or holding pen for lost immortal souls!
    #2 Gehenna the valley of Gehennom (trash dump)
    #3 Tartaroo deeppest abyss of hades

    In the Hebrew Bible there is no hell, no holding pen for lost souls, no imortal soul, the dead are in the grave, they are dead! Awaiting the resurrection.

    If your God is a Greek god, you may have an immortal soul!? And you may go to one or more of the Greek hells.

    My God is the God of the Hebrews, the Father of my savior Yeshua, when I die I will be dead, in the grave, awaiting the resurrection!
    :162:
     
  4. xander-

    xander- Member

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    Ok thanks for the help, thus far :D!!
    But linwood your answear got me wondering.. does it state in the bible what hell is, or are you supposed to figure that out yourself? Or do you figure it out because of the context? Again my graditude:D

    -Xander
     
  5. jewscout

    jewscout Religious Zionist

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    What i know of the Christian concept of Hell comes mainly from Paradise Lost. There isn't much written in either the Tanach or the Gospels on the exact nature of hell. I know the Christian bible talks about a place with eternal fire or a river of fire.
     
  6. linwood

    linwood Well-Known Member

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    The only description I can recall without looking it up is "A Great Lake of Fire" and that is stretching it because that description may not be of Hell at all.
    Some Christians interpret it is a description of Hell.
    There are seperate references in the gospels of "Burning" & "Fire" attributed to Hell and that Hell is "down" 'beneath" underground, is full of torment and may have levels but beyond that there is no central consistent description that I know of.
    Thats why I said it was my opinion the modern idea of hell came from Daunte and his 9 levels of Hell.(I think it was 9)
    I think Daunte took these references and from them wrote his "Inferno" which isn`t Biblical or divine but gives a pretty consistent description of Hell according to all these scattered references.
    It is important to remeber that while Hell is mentioned in the OT(Judiac Book) it is not really defined or used much at all until the gospels in the NT (Christain Book).
    The writers of the Gospels had reasons for doing this but to state them would merely be my own personal speculation.
     
  7. linwood

    linwood Well-Known Member

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    I`ve not read Paradise Lost but I`ve heard this before.
    Maybe I should read it since it seems many agree with you jewscout.

    Thanks
     
  8. xander-

    xander- Member

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    Thanks again for the help, though as my memory, says that his name is Damien not Dante.. but i'll find out later.. thanks alot that helps

    -Xander
     
  9. Tom Davidson

    Tom Davidson Member

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    This is a necessarily long answer, the short answer is the common notion of hell in mediaval times is as simple and as graphic as the common notion of heaven, the universe, and most scientific theory. Remember the sky was a dome, pierced with holes, and it was possible to reach the edge of the world, and alchemists could turn base metal into gold ...

    +++

    The English term 'hell' is from the Anglo-Saxon verb 'helan' or 'behelain' - to hide.

    Before going into the Hebrew/Greek/Latin, it might be worth considering this: In the Garden of Eden, the result of the eating of the forbidden fruit was that the Primordial Couple saw their nakedness, were ashamed, and hid from the Divine Presence. If we review this process then 'nakedness' implies difference - they saw that they were different from each other - and 'difference' as a concept is dependent upon 'duality'. Prior to this moment there was only Primordial Unity which is without difference or distinction.

    Scripture states 'their eyes were opened' - yet it is obvious they were not blind before - so when their (outer) eyes were opened their (inner) eye was closed, or more precisely occluded. In another sense, they saw only the surface and lost the sense of the interiority of things, both as things and as part of a whole - they saw their difference but not why. This sense of loss of understanding, this sudden bewilderment and confusion, is the cause of their shame.

    And, shame being found to be lesser than one knows one is, or ought to be, they hid.

    Here lies a foundational notion of hell.

    + + +

    The Latin 'infernus' (inferum, inferi), the Greek 'Hades', and the Hebrew 'sheol' correspond to the word hell. Infernus is derived from the root in; hence it designates hell as a place within and below the earth. Hades, formed from the root fid, to see, and a privative, denotes an invisible, hidden, and dark place; thus it is similar to the term hell. The derivation of sheol is doubtful. It is generally supposed to come from the Hebrew root meaning, "to be sunk in, to be hollow"; accordingly it denotes a cave or a place under the earth.

    In all three then, 'hell' is perceived as a netherworld, a lesser world, denied the light of day and thus a place of privation, light in this sense being both material - light, warmth, comfort, etc, and spiritual. If there is suffering in this world, then it is obvious that the suffering of man in the netherword is increased proportionally.

    In the New Testament the term Gehenna is used more frequently in preference to hades, as a name for the place of punishment of the damned. Gehenna is the Hebrew g?-hinnom "valley of the sons of Hinnom". The Valley of Hinnom is south of Jerusalem and is now called Wadi er-rababi. It was notorious as the scene, in earlier days, of the worship of Moloch and the sacrifice of children. For this reason it was defiled by Josias (IV Kings, xxiii, 10), cursed by Jeremias (Jer., vii, 31-33), and held in abomination by the Jews, who, accordingly, used the name of this valley to designate the abode of the damned (Targ. Jon., Gen., iii, 24; Henoch, c. xxvi). And Christ adopted this usage of the term as a figurative term to clothe a metaphysical concept.

    Besides Hades and Gehenna in the NT there is "lower hell" (II Peter, ii, 4), "abyss" (Luke, viii, 31 and elsewhere), "place of torments" (Luke, xvi, 28), "pool of fire" (Apoc., xix, 20 and elsewhere), "furnace of fire" (Matt., xiii, 42, 50), "unquenchable fire" (Matt., iii, 12, and elsewhere), "everlasting fire" (Matt., xviii, 8; xxv, 41; Jude, 7), "exterior darkness" (Matt., vii, 12; xxii, 13; xxv, 30), "mist" or "storm of darkness" (II Peter, ii, 17; Jude, 13). The state of the damned is called "destruction" (apoleia, Phil., iii, 19, and elsewhere), "perdition" (olethros, I Tim., vi, 9), "eternal destruction" (olethros aionios, II Thess., i, 9), "corruption" (phthora, Gal., vi, 8), "death" (Rom., vi, 21), "second death" (Apoc., ii, 11 and elsewhere).

    In all the above references, and their differences, one can see metaphysical symbolism at play.

    Might I also add that in the traditions of the east, even non-theist Buddhism, there is sin and hell, and the symbolism of both corresponds often exactly with those of the west, which signifies its universality. An occupant of Dante's Inferno, for example, would find himself entirely at home in a Buddhist hell.

    Thomas
     
  10. precept

    precept Member

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    That "hell" is a place of destruction cannot be doubted.
    "And if thy right eye offend thee, 'Pluck it out' and cast it from thee[an extreme solution]for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish"--the totality and finality of the solution is acknowledged in the completeness of death of the offending member.
    "And NOT THAT THY WHOLE BODY BE CAST IN HELL"... Again the totality and finality of "hell" in contributing to the death; not only of "one member" but the entire cast of members, is beyond doubt when contrasted with the totality and finality of being "blind" and a "blindness" caused by one's own hands.
    The above contrast in terms were spoken by God Himself in Matthew 5:29

    "Heaven" on the other hand is a place of bliss. Heaven is where the God who condems to hell all who choose not to follow Him, lives.

    "Be ye therefore perfect even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect;" said Jesus in Mathew 5:48.

    Jesus also said that "in His Father's house are many mansions"; mansions which He has gone to prepare for all who love Him so that where He is[heaven] His followers will be there with him--i.e. in His Father's House-Heaven. John 14:1-3


    precept
     
  11. Khale

    Khale Active Member

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    The concept of Hell, if I remember correctly, came into being around the time of the Babylonian Exile. During this time the Jews were living with a people that believed in opposing gods. This concept was incorparated into the jewish religion which is where Satan comes from. Now, it is only natural that if there is an opposing force to God who lives in heaven, that there must be a place for Satan to live or at least rule over, thus Hell. A few millenia later of religious evolution and we have the Hell that is generally seen today. It is a place of gnashing teeth, fire, and brimstone. What better dwelling place for an evil counter part to God?
     
  12. precept

    precept Member

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    This is pure fiction!...Neither the concept of Hell nor that of Satan is to be found in any tenet of Judaism.

    precept
     
  13. xander-

    xander- Member

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    I'm sorry for brining such an old topic up.. But again, i have a question(It's soo cool that the combined knowlege of everyone in RF.com contains everything you ever needed to know:D.. It's like the all-knowing google!). If you're a devil worshipper, is going to hell a good thing?
    My own view of 'hell', even though i really don't beive in it, is from Little Nicky. Pure fun and games, but also a little bit of shoving sharp things up the *** of bad people :)
    -Xander
     
  14. MagickIsFun

    MagickIsFun Member

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    I saw that movie. Kinda funny. -^__^- and I am not sure. ask one.
     
  15. Mister Emu

    Mister Emu Emu Extraordinaire
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    What is commonly called hell, is in reality known only as a lake of fire, it comes from teachings in Mt. Mk. and Revelations.
     
  16. Aqualung

    Aqualung Tasty

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    Well, I defenitely don't beleive Little Nicky was a very accurate representation. Hell for the devil and his worshipers won't be like that. What it will be is an eternal cutting off from God. It will essentially be death. Now, I don't know any devil worshippers myself, but my general instinct is that they don't crave misery, but their worship gives them some sense of happiness. Hell will instead be complete misery. They won't have any glory or fun or reward. They won't get to "rule" anything. It will be emptiness.
     
  17. Bick

    Bick Member

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  18. Bick

    Bick Member

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    Hi Linwood. Interesting that you, not being a believer know something of the Bible.
    I would encourage you to consult a Bible Concordance, and you will find that "hell" used in the OT is the Hebrew word, "Sheol," which basically means "unseen," and should be translated "the grave" in most cases. In the NT Jesus warned the multitudes of sinning such a grievious sin that the Sanhedren (Jewish Council) would condemn them to the fires of Gehenna (Greek){not "hell"}.

    A good Bible dictionary will show you that "Gehenna" was a place outside the walls of Jerusalem, where the refuse of Jerusalem was continually burning to help destroy the trash and the bodies of dead animals and criminals thrown there. This was in Jesus day when he warned the multitudes about sinning so grievious a sin that the Jewish Council (Sanhedren) would condemn them to the Gehenna of fire. Ref: Mat. 5:22,29,30; 10:28; 18:9; 23:15,33; Mrk. 9:43,45,47; Luke 12:5.
    The Greek equivalent of "Sheol" is "Hades," which also should be translated "the grave" or "the unseen," depending on the context.
    Ref: Acts:2,27,31.

    Linwood, I would urge you to consider the words of Ephesians 2:8 and 9: "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works lest any man should boast."
     
    #18 Bick, Nov 6, 2014
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2014
  19. Saint Frankenstein

    Saint Frankenstein ᛘᛁᛏᚾᛁᚴᚼᛏ᛫ᛋᚢᚾ
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    Bick, this thread is 10 years old! Those people don't even post here anymore.
     
  20. Harikrish

    Harikrish Active Member

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    Are you suggesting it is too late to save those poor souls from a place they were uncertain it existed.
     
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