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Heaven and Hell what is the meaning of this, who decides?

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
We will have the same bodies
There are many Scriptural reasons for believing that we will be raised with the same body that died. First, Christ was raised in the same body He had before He died. We know this because the tomb was empty (Luke 24:1-6) and because His resurrected body retained scars from the crucifixion (John 20:25, 27). Since Christ's resurrection is the pattern that our resurrection will follow (Philippians 3:20-21; 1 Cor. 15:49), then we will also be raised with the same body.

Just wanted to ask.....If Christ was resurrected in the same body that was offered in sacrifice, then how could he take it back? That body was sacrificed and God disposed of it, (just as he disposed of Moses' body in a place where no one could find it. Deuteronomy 34:5)
Acts 2:29-3 and Psalm 16:10 tells us that it was prophesied that Jesus body would not see corruption in the tomb.

Peter tells us clearly that Christ was "put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit" (1 Peter 3:18) This means that he was not raised in the same body as he had before.....in fact Jesus, as a spirit being, could materialize fleshly bodies as other spirit beings had done throughout the Bible. On some occasions when Jesus "appeared" to his disciples, they did not recognize him. On another occasion when he was eating with them, he 'disappeared' before their eyes. The body he materialized to convince Thomas had the marks of his execution, but on no other occasion were they mentioned. With the treatment he received the night before his agonizing death, Jesus would have been a physical wreck. Why would God resurrect that battered body?

Christ's death and resurrection do form a pattern for those chosen to rule with him in heaven. They too will be divested of their fleshly body and be given spirit bodies so that they can dwell in the presence of God.....that is something that is physically impossible for mortal flesh. You cannot be immortal in the flesh.

Jesus speaks of the resurrection as involving the coming forth out of tombs, which strongly indicates that the resurrection is the reanimation of the body that had been lied to rest originally: "An hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment" (John 5:28-29).

OK, so what happens to those who have been eaten by wild animals or sharks?....or those who were cremated and their ashes scattered over a cliff or into the sea? These are not in tombs as such but are still very dead...there is simply nothing left of their physical bodies. They must of necessity be "recreated"....since not a molecule of their flesh is left.

In Matthew 19:28...addressing the ones chosen to rule with him in heaven...."And Jesus said to them, “Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel."


This sounds to me like God will "regenerate" the bodies of those who have been long dead. It isn't our bodies that make us who we are...it is our personality. Anyone with a relative suffering with advanced dementia will know that the body is alive, but the person they knew is dead. Jesus healed those with physical disabilities and sicknesses, so the body raised will not be one stricken with cancer, heart disease or any other debilitating condition. If by his power he can heal them, he can recreate them just as easily as God created Adam.


Paul's statement "it is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body" (1 Corinthians 15:42) establishes that there is a continuity between our current body and our resurrected body, for it is the same "it" in both cases.

"IT" is the same person.....but not the same body. Just as Jesus died in a mortal human body....he was raised as a spirit.....he is the same person but in a different body....one designed to inhabit the spirit realm.

the same body we have now (which is mortal), will become immortal: "For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality."

Only those who go to heaven will be granted immortality. Adam and his wife were not immortals, yet God designed them to live forever in their mortal flesh. He gave them the opportunity never to die. All they had to do was obey one simple command.

Being "mortal" simply means that a human can die, not that they must. There is a difference between everlasting life and immortality just as there is a difference between the soul and the spirit.

What do you think?
 
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loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
View attachment 24532

This topic was also raised in another Thread.





So What is Heaven and what is Hell?

If we give thought to what the Spiritual Words of God are guiding us to, which is to live in the Spirit and not in flesh, then we can also consider that Heaven and Hell and Spiritual states of being. Heaven being nearness and hell being remoteness.

The important thing here is no man can judge another mans heart, that is only for God to do.

@oldbadger Thus no Baha'i will judge any upon their motives as to what they post as they choose to do. They may offer that a person consider a different way of looking at the subject, but if one chooses to stay with the view they hold, no one can judge that motive, but God.

So what is you view of heaven and hell, literal of spiritual?

Regards Tony

My spirit dwells in heaven even though I walk upon the earth.

Contentment, happiness, joy, and bliss are all sentiments of heaven while unhappiness, misery, depression and hopelessness are indicative of one residing in a living hell.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
View attachment 24532
This topic was also raised in another Thread.

So What is Heaven and what is Hell?

If we give thought to what the Spiritual Words of God are guiding us to, which is to live in the Spirit and not in flesh, then we can also consider that Heaven and Hell and Spiritual states of being. Heaven being nearness and hell being remoteness.

The important thing here is no man can judge another mans heart, that is only for God to do.

@oldbadger Thus no Baha'i will judge any upon their motives as to what they post as they choose to do. They may offer that a person consider a different way of looking at the subject, but if one chooses to stay with the view they hold, no one can judge that motive, but God.

So what is you view of heaven and hell, literal of spiritual?

Regards Tony
"Heaven being nearness and hell being remoteness." Unquote.

Nearness from whom and or remoteness from whom, please?

Regards
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
"Heaven being nearness and hell being remoteness." Unquote.

Nearness from whom and or remoteness from whom, please?

Regards

Allah, G-d, God.

The way to God is the Messengers.

Christ says it as.

John 14:6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

Regards Tony
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
My spirit dwells in heaven even though I walk upon the earth.

Contentment, happiness, joy, and bliss are all sentiments of heaven while unhappiness, misery, depression and hopelessness are indicative of one residing in a living hell.
People can be unhappy, miserable, depressed and feel hopeless because of a psychological condition or a spiritual condition, or it can be both. There might be overlap or not.

To say that if only one was spiritual they would be happy all the time is very naive. That is like saying spirituality is a cure for depression, but it's not. If someone is depressed, it is not necessarily because they are not spiritual, it is because of many other factors that affect a person's life. Not everyone can rise above these things and still be spiritually happy. It only makes a depressed person feel worse when they are blamed for their depression and told they are not spiritual. There is not always a solution as some people might think who have never been there.

I am not saying that you are implying anything, I just felt a need to say what I did because I have thought about this quite a bit. Psychology is my other hat and one I wore longer than the religion hat and I have an advanced degree in psychology. I also have many years of experience as a client in counseling, in 12 step programs, and taking various psychotropic drugs and homeopathic remedies.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
People can be unhappy, miserable, depressed and feel hopeless because of a psychological condition or a spiritual condition, or it can be both. There might be overlap or not.

To say that if only one was spiritual they would be happy all the time is very naive. That is like saying spirituality is a cure for depression, but it's not. If someone is depressed, it is not necessarily because they are not spiritual, it is because of many other factors that affect a person's life. Not everyone can rise above these things and still be spiritually happy. It only makes a depressed person feel worse when they are blamed for their depression and told they are not spiritual. There is not always a solution as some people might think who have never been there.

I am not saying that you are implying anything, I just felt a need to say what I did because I have thought about this quite a bit. Psychology is my other hat and one I wore longer than the religion hat and I have an advanced degree in psychology. I also have many years of experience as a client in counseling, in 12 step programs, and taking various psychotropic drugs and homeopathic remedies.


Well I’ve been there and back as a patient with 6 suicide attempts so I have lived through it first hand.

It was indeed my inference that only when man lives a spiritual,life can he attain true happiness.

Man is, in reality, a spiritual being, and only when he lives in the spirit is he truly happy. (Paris Talks)

All our sorrow, pain, shame and grief, are born in the world of matter; whereas the spiritual Kingdom never causes sadness.
(‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Paris Talks, p. 110)

I am not qualified in psychology as you are and I respect that, but in suicide attempts and stays in mental hospitals and courses of ECT I am, and the only thing that cured me was a spiritual cure.

The doctors could find no cure why I repeatedly, 6 times, attempted suicide. Slashing wrists, 50 Largactal and they were unable to help me at all except sedate me and put me in a strait jacket.

What did cure me was when I heard of Baha’u’llah after being released and investigated His Teachings and found all my hopes, dreams and wishes fulfilled in them. He turned my despair in hope, my depression into joy and gave me inner peace and contentment.

Now I’m not saying that there aren’t physiological causes of things like mood swings and such that need other forms of treatment, just that, as a very ‘psychologically’ ill person, I found the cure through reading the Words of Baha’u’llah.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Well I’ve been there and back as a patient with 6 suicide attempts so I have lived through it first hand.

It was indeed my inference that only when man lives a spiritual,life can he attain true happiness.

Man is, in reality, a spiritual being, and only when he lives in the spirit is he truly happy. (Paris Talks)

All our sorrow, pain, shame and grief, are born in the world of matter; whereas the spiritual Kingdom never causes sadness.
(‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Paris Talks, p. 110)
I fully agree with that, and I will personally attest to the fact that all my sorrow comes from the material world and all my joy comes from the spiritual world. ;)

However, that does not mean that spirituality is a cure for psychological problems since those problems might preclude one from feeling spiritual or living a spiritual life.

The other thing is that as Baha'is I do not think our goal should be personal happiness, but that is another subject. I plan to post a new thread entitled What Really Makes Us Happy, but I have not had the time to respond so I am keeping it in my back pocket. :)
I am not qualified in psychology as you are and I respect that, but in suicide attempts and stays in mental hospitals and courses of ECT I am, and the only thing that cured me was a spiritual cure.

The doctors could find no cure why I repeatedly, 6 times, attempted suicide. Slashing wrists, 50 Largactal and they were unable to help me at all except sedate me and put me in a strait jacket.

What did cure me was when I heard of Baha’u’llah after being released and investigated His Teachings and found all my hopes, dreams and wishes fulfilled in them. He turned my despair in hope, my depression into joy and gave me inner peace and contentment.
Thanks for sharing. That is quite a testimony. That worked for you but obviously it will not be a cure for everyone. The causes of major depression are very different and all people need to be treated as individuals. Apparently what was wrong with you was not physically-based but rather related to your life circumstances and the way you perceived reality, thus it makes sense why the doctors could not find a physical cure. Some depressions are endogenous and they never remit fully in this life because they are part of one's constitution, in their genes. Both my parents had depression and anxiety as did my only brother and sister. What helped me most was homeopathic medicine because it works on the vital force, which is associated with the soul and affects the brain through the soul.
Now I’m not saying that there aren’t physiological causes of things like mood swings and such that need other forms of treatment, just that, as a very ‘psychologically’ ill person, I found the cure through reading the Words of Baha’u’llah.
I am happy to hear that worked for you. After my depression and anxiety was cured for the most part by homeopathy, I still had grief reactions that were unremitting. Those reactions only started to turn around when I finally turned to God through Baha'u'llah. the turning point was in June 2014 when I opened Gleanings and really understood what I was reading... It was the Voice of God. :eek:
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
No, but you can frighten them into subscribing to a religion, which is what the Christian religion does.

.
you refer to the bible thumpers of the south?
the fire and brimstone guys?

how about the muslims?.....who actually cut off hands and heads?
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
I have posted this several times.....

you leave this world naked
you find yourself in front of a Door

so.....you gather your'self'....and raise your hand to knock on the Door

a Voice behind you is heard to say.....NAY!
to knock on that Door is betrayal unto me

some people will panic and throw themselves upon the Door
beat upon it with desperation

some people will stand firm and raise their hand again

either way that Voice will speak again
NAY!.....it is betrayal to me!

oh sure....Knock and the Door will open
it is written
and it will open....and They will let you in
but They will look you over ...as They did me

and They will throw you out
as They did me

and you will then deal with me.......traitor!
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
you refer to the bible thumpers of the south?
the fire and brimstone guys?

how about the muslims?.....who actually cut off hands and heads?
Actually, I think it's true of any religion that presents a danger that can only be avoided by following their prescription. So it isn't any particular faction of a religion, Bible thumpers for instance, or only Christianity. I'm not familiar with Islam, but if it says you're headed to hell unless . . . . . then they also qualify.

.


.
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
View attachment 24532

This topic was also raised in another Thread.





So What is Heaven and what is Hell?

If we give thought to what the Spiritual Words of God are guiding us to, which is to live in the Spirit and not in flesh, then we can also consider that Heaven and Hell and Spiritual states of being. Heaven being nearness and hell being remoteness.

The important thing here is no man can judge another mans heart, that is only for God to do.

@oldbadger Thus no Baha'i will judge any upon their motives as to what they post as they choose to do. They may offer that a person consider a different way of looking at the subject, but if one chooses to stay with the view they hold, no one can judge that motive, but God.

So what is you view of heaven and hell, literal of spiritual?

Regards Tony

Literal. Literally not existing.

Ciao

- viole
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Allah, G-d, God.

The way to God is the Messengers.

Christ says it as.

John 14:6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

Regards Tony
"Allah, G-d, God." Unquote.

If it is nearness to G-d, and not nearness to Bahaullah/Jesus/Krishna- who were all human beings, then yes the heaven is getting nearness to G-d and hell is being away from Him.

Regards
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
"Allah, G-d, God." Unquote.

If it is nearness to G-d, and not nearness to Bahaullah/Jesus/Krishna- who were all human beings, then yes the heaven is getting nearness to G-d and hell is being away from Him.

Regards

Paarsurry I would offer a question, can you accept the Quran, your chosen path to the knowledge of Allah, without believing in Muhammad (Peace be upon Him), or in fact all the Messengers?

Is not that acceptance, then part of that nearness to God, as we cannot seperate the Messenger from the Message.

Regards Tony
 
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