Heaven and Hell what is the meaning of this, who decides?

[TransmutingSoul]

This topic was also raised in another Thread.

“Death proffereth unto every confident believer the cup that is life indeed. It bestoweth joy, and is the bearer of gladness. It conferreth the gift of everlasting life.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 345

Well, after what some Bahais have said to me, about me, on this forum, I can only hope that the Bahai concepts are non existent! If Bahai is right then I might be meeting with you somewhere where neither of us wanted to be.

So What is Heaven and what is Hell?

If we give thought to what the Spiritual Words of God are guiding us to, which is to live in the Spirit and not in flesh, then we can also consider that Heaven and Hell and Spiritual states of being. Heaven being nearness and hell being remoteness.

The important thing here is no man can judge another mans heart, that is only for God to do.

@oldbadger Thus no Baha'i will judge any upon their motives as to what they post as they choose to do. They may offer that a person consider a different way of looking at the subject, but if one chooses to stay with the view they hold, no one can judge that motive, but God.

So what is you view of heaven and hell, literal of spiritual?

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

So what is you view of heaven and hell, literal of spiritual?

I do not think it is an either/or. We can say that heaven and hell are states of nearness to and distance from God respectively, but our soul still has to go somewhere after we die. We have to exist somewhere, in a realm if existence. So as I see it, there might be a heaven and a hell in the spiritual realm and we might gravitate towards one of the other depending upon our nearness to or distance from God, as well as other things such as the life we lived, our deeds and motives, particularly how selfless we were.

 

[sun rise]

So what is you view of heaven and hell, literal of spiritual?

For me, Eastern. After one dies and starts doing a past life review, a life on balance positive will result in great pleasure that is called heaven. Another life upon review will cause the soul great suffering, called hell. One the review is over, the extreme pleasure or pain is over.

 

[Trailblazer]

For me, Eastern. After one dies and starts doing a past life review, a life on balance positive will result in great pleasure that is called heaven. Another life upon review will cause the soul great suffering, called hell. Once the review is over, the extreme pleasure or pain is over.

That life review process is not hugely different from what Baha'u'llah described, but I am not sure what happens after that.

“It is clear and evident that all men shall, after their physical death, estimate the worth of their deeds, and realize all that their hands have wrought. I swear by the Day Star that shineth above the horizon of Divine power! They that are the followers of the one true God shall, the moment they depart out of this life, experience such joy and gladness as would be impossible to describe, while they that live in error shall be seized with such fear and trembling, and shall be filled with such consternation, as nothing can exceed. Well is it with him that hath quaffed the choice and incorruptible wine of faith through the gracious favor and the manifold bounties of Him Who is the Lord of all Faiths…” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 171​

 

[Skwim]

So what is you view of heaven and hell, literal of spiritual?

I believe both are fictional realms of the afterlife concocted or appropriated by Judaism. Heaven to lure people into the religion, and Hell to scare them into it.
.

 

[wizanda]

So What is Heaven and what is Hell?

From my NDE, Hell is a lower dimension of quantum physics, where it is single stranded; these make up the fabric of reality, and is what our soul consists of.

Many religious cultures describe it as a dark shadowy underworld of despair; having been there, it is the frequency of inharmonious actions, that leads to the muddy colors.

|​

Heaven is the Higher dimensions of pure consciousness, in a state of pure Oneness with the Singularity, and the Source of the Matrix we exist within.

Heaven is made up of Unconditional Love as a dimension to begin, and then Wisdom at the Core.

In my opinion.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

For me, Eastern. After one dies and starts doing a past life review, a life on balance positive will result in great pleasure that is called heaven. Another life upon review will cause the soul great suffering, called hell. One the review is over, the extreme pleasure or pain is over.

Thank you. The only thing I see may be different is that we will be aware, that awareness does no finish.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I believe both are fictional realms of the afterlife concocted or appropriated by Judaism. Heaven to lure people into the religion, and Hell to scare them into the religion.
.

That is indeed a view we can hold. Personally I can see no end to Love, it must have a purpose and an ongoing conscious.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

From my NDE, Hell is a lower dimension of quantum physics, where it is single stranded; these make up the fabric of reality, and is what our soul consists of.

Many religious cultures describe it as a dark shadowy underworld of despair; having been there, it is the frequency of inharmonious actions, that leads to the muddy colors.

|​

Heaven is the Higher dimensions of pure consciousness, in a state of pure Oneness with the Singularity, and the Source of the Matrix we exist within.

Heaven is made up of Unconditional Love as a dimension to begin, and then Wisdom at the Core.

In my opinion.

That is wonderful. Regards Tony

 

[lioncub1503]

The term “hell” actually comes from the Greek word sheol, meaning the grave. This was a place in Israel where the people usernames to burn bodies, and was basically constantly lit with fire. Also, something I find interesting is how similar Christianity’s beliefs about death are to Pagan, Greek mythology. Greek and Roman mythology believed in the main places (that I know of). There was Hell/Hades, there was a middle ground, and a nice place where good people went. Coincidence? Christianity also believe in these places, Hell and Heaven obviously but also Limbo. There are other similarities as well, but I don’t want to blab on


“The living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all . . . for there is no work nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom in the Grave, where you are going.” Ecc 9:5,10

We know that we can die, but the dead know nothing, meaning that they cannot have any sense of conciseness? It later says that there is no “knowledge”, no thoughts. Also, this text is in connection to righteous people, meaning that this state of non’existence is not just some form of hell.

““His spirit goes out, he returns to the ground; on that very day his thoughts perish.””

So his spirit goes out and his body returns to the ground, to dust, so it could be some sort of spiritual place. However, we do know that God has the power to do anything and would be able to recreate a person’s body if he wishes. What reinforces the previous idea is that the bible states that “his thoughts perish”, meaning he thinks no more.

“[Jesus] added: ‘Lazarus our friend has fallen asleep, but I am traveling there to awaken him.’ Jesus, however, had spoken about his death. But they imagined he was speaking about taking rest in sleep. Then Jesus said to them plainly: ‘Lazarus has died.’” -John 11:11, 13, 14

Here, Jesus likens death to a deep sleep. What happens when you are in a very deep? It is like you are unconscious. This I find comforting because you don’t have to worry about whether your relatives are burning in hell. Additionally, I think it interesting that Lazarus did not talk about any experience in an afterlife. When the news reached Jesus, he was infact 2 days journey away, but it took him 4 days to get there because he stayed in that place for 2 days. It was common belief that the soul stayed with the body for 3 days then left. Maybe Jesus purposely delayed? Anyhow, by common and pretty much every custom, Lazarus had been properly dead then arose, not to speak of what would probably have been the first thing on his mind to tell?

““There is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous.”” Acts 24:15
Ok, so not everything is about non-existance. This says that people will be brought back to life. We believe to a paradise earth, but wherever it is I hope it is nice We have reasons for thinking Earth not a new world or heaven,and why it says righteous and unrighteousness (basically; some may not have been given a chance, and God is fair. ) but my post is getting long and longer XD

 

[nPeace]

The term “hell” actually comes from the Greek word sheol, meaning the grave. This was a place in Israel where the people usernames to burn bodies, and was basically constantly lit with fire. Also, something I find interesting is how similar Christianity’s beliefs about death are to Pagan, Greek mythology. Greek and Roman mythology believed in the main places (that I know of). There was Hell/Hades, there was a middle ground, and a nice place where good people went. Coincidence? Christianity also believe in these places, Hell and Heaven obviously but also Limbo. There are other similarities as well, but I don’t want to blab on


“The living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all . . . for there is no work nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom in the Grave, where you are going.” Ecc 9:5,10

We know that we can die, but the dead know nothing, meaning that they cannot have any sense of conciseness? It later says that there is no “knowledge”, no thoughts. Also, this text is in connection to righteous people, meaning that this state of non’existence is not just some form of hell.

““His spirit goes out, he returns to the ground; on that very day his thoughts perish.””

So his spirit goes out and his body returns to the ground, to dust, so it could be some sort of spiritual place. However, we do know that God has the power to do anything and would be able to recreate a person’s body if he wishes. What reinforces the previous idea is that the bible states that “his thoughts perish”, meaning he thinks no more.

“[Jesus] added: ‘Lazarus our friend has fallen asleep, but I am traveling there to awaken him.’ Jesus, however, had spoken about his death. But they imagined he was speaking about taking rest in sleep. Then Jesus said to them plainly: ‘Lazarus has died.’” -John 11:11, 13, 14

Here, Jesus likens death to a deep sleep. What happens when you are in a very deep? It is like you are unconscious. This I find comforting because you don’t have to worry about whether your relatives are burning in hell. Additionally, I think it interesting that Lazarus did not talk about any experience in an afterlife. When the news reached Jesus, he was infact 2 days journey away, but it took him 4 days to get there because he stayed in that place for 2 days. It was common belief that the soul stayed with the body for 3 days then left. Maybe Jesus purposely delayed? Anyhow, by common and pretty much every custom, Lazarus had been properly dead then arose, not to speak of what would probably have been the first thing on his mind to tell?

““There is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous.”” Acts 24:15
Ok, so not everything is about non-existance. This says that people will be brought back to life. We believe to a paradise earth, but wherever it is I hope it is nice We have reasons for thinking Earth not a new world or heaven,and why it says righteous and unrighteousness (basically; some may not have been given a chance, and God is fair. ) but my post is getting long and longer XD

So you are saying these are literal places?

 

[lioncub1503]

So you are saying these are literal places?

(Thank you!)

Oops, just a note, I actually meant Gahenna rather than Sheol is where they dumped bodies and garbage where the fire does not get out out. Like a rubbish dump that we have. It was actually called the Vallley of Hinnom. Gahenna is just another word for Sheol or grave. I think this was also the place that babies and children were sacrificed to Pagan gods decades before?


Well, the Valley of Hinnom, Gahenna, was a real place in Ancient Israel, but was nothing special and does not exist today. It was simply a rubbish heap. But in reference to hell...I technically don’t think that it Is literal or physical considering I don’t believe in it I believe that after death, we loose all consciousnesses and existance and simply return to dust like God promised when they ate the fruit. However, because of Jesus’ ransom sacrifice we can be resurrected to a literal place, this world in fact, and those that are still alive after “the end”, Armageddon, will clean it up and then people will gradually be resurrected. We believe that a very small number, 144,000 out of everyone baptised In our religion after Christ, are chosen by God to go to “heaven”. A literal but non-literal, spiritual place. You cannot see or touch it, but it exists and spiritual beings reside in it. We believe that it is not just simply a place of consciousness, although humans cannot see it.

So, to sum that up;
-We don’t believe in Hell

-Gahenna/Sheol is just a normal place, a rubbish dump

-When you are dead that is it, you are simply out of existence

-We believe that a majority of those deserving or didn’t get a chance will be resurrected to a completely physical paradise on this Earth in the future

-A very small portion chosen by God will go to “heaven” to rule over those on Earth, not a physical place but a spiritual place where angels and God resides (not a form of your mind or conscious!)

 

[nPeace]

(Thank you!)

Oops, just a note, I actually meant Gahenna rather than Sheol is where they dumped bodies and garbage where the fire does not get out out. Like a rubbish dump that we have. It was actually called the Vallley of Hinnom. Gahenna is just another word for Sheol or grave. I think this was also the place that babies and children were sacrificed to Pagan gods decades before?


Well, the Valley of Hinnom, Gahenna, was a real place in Ancient Israel, but was nothing special and does not exist today. It was simply a rubbish heap. But in reference to hell...I technically don’t think that it Is literal or physical considering I don’t believe in it I believe that after death, we loose all consciousnesses and existance and simply return to dust like God promised when they ate the fruit. However, because of Jesus’ ransom sacrifice we can be resurrected to a literal place, this world in fact, and those that are still alive after “the end”, Armageddon, will clean it up and then people will gradually be resurrected. We believe that a very small number, 144,000 out of everyone baptised In our religion after Christ, are chosen by God to go to “heaven”. A literal but non-literal, spiritual place. You cannot see or touch it, but it exists and spiritual beings reside in it. We believe that it is not just simply a place of consciousness, although humans cannot see it.

So, to sum that up;
-We don’t believe in Hell

-Gahenna/Sheol is just a normal place, a rubbish dump

-When you are dead that is it, you are simply out of existence

-We believe that a majority of those deserving or didn’t get a chance will be resurrected to a completely physical paradise on this Earth in the future

-A very small portion chosen by God will go to “heaven” to rule over those on Earth, not a physical place but a spiritual place where angels and God resides (not a form of your mind or conscious!)

If I am not mistaken, I think the OP is really asking, is heaven and hell a figurative representation or something, or literal - whether spiritual or physical.
You seem to be saying they are literal. Is that correct?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Here, Jesus likens death to a deep sleep.

I see much wisdom in this concept. We could liken it like the Mineral,or Animal Spirit in relation to the Spirit of Man.

Ecclesiastes 3:18-19 "I said to myself concerning the sons of men, "God has surely tested them in order for them to see that they are but beasts." For the fate of the sons of men and the fate of beasts is the same. As one dies so dies the other; indeed, they all have the same breath and there is no advantage for man over beast, for all is vanity."

Christ has given us the chance to be born again, that is from the animal to the spiritual, from ignorance to knowledge, from sleep to be awakened.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Neither. Neither exist. They're inventions to fit a reward/punishment model of interaction with a separate God.

My opinion. You asked.

Ha ha...you have the My Opinion disclaimer

What I have found, is that sometimes we believe in a given concept without even knowing it, life teaches us these lessons without giving them any names. It may be you understand what is heaven and hell, but in an entirely different frame of reference.

In my Opinion

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So, to sum that up;
-We don’t believe in Hell

I wonder how one makes a distinction of what is heaven without hell being considered? This verse will give the concept I am considering;

Isaiah 45:7 "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things."

Thus to me this is saying in creating the virtues, the opposite becomes a possibility. Love is the Virtue, lack of Love become what we know as hate. The same is with all Virtues. Light is the force, lack of light is darkness or lack of light.

Thus it stands to logical reason, Heaven is the place of virtue, hell becomes the lack of that virtue. One may say Spiritual depravity and unawareness.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Yes, Tony, you are right, I am wrong. I apologise.

There you go, right and wrong is one aspect of heaven and hell.

There is no right or wrong here, just different paradigms.

Regards Tony

 

[Dell]

Compare the Old Testament to the New Testament. Heaven and Hell (reminds me of Black Sabbath song) is not referred to in the Old Testament in the sense that it is in the New Testament. The idea of Heaven and Hell like we think of today was developed by apocalyptic Jewish sects prior the the time of Jesus. It was borrowed from the ideas passed down from Egyptians and Persians who taught there was an underworld and a paradise. I.e. Google Egyptian Book of the dead and evil gods. The apocalyptic Jews took it to a totally new level, as a struggle between good and evil, demons vs angels, and the final Judgment. By the time of the new testament, that ideology made it's way into the gospels, a common occurrence of possessions and theme of God verses Satan or the kingdom heaven verses this world, the great judgement, etc...

Also there is no better scheme than convincing people the retirement of Heaven and torments of Hell exist. It's made a many of preachers, prophets, and organizations very wealthy, prominent and powerful in human history.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Also there is no better scheme than convincing people the retirement of Heaven and torments of Hell exist. It's made a many of preachers, prophets, and organizations very wealthy, prominent and powerful in human history.

It is interesting the Messengers of God were not after fame and fortune. In fact they gave their lives for the Message they gave.

It is they that tell us what is Heaven and Hell in spiritual ways.

Regards Tony

 

[Deeje]

Ecclesiastes 3:18-19 "I said to myself concerning the sons of men, "God has surely tested them in order for them to see that they are but beasts." For the fate of the sons of men and the fate of beasts is the same. As one dies so dies the other; indeed, they all have the same breath and there is no advantage for man over beast, for all is vanity."

This is actually one of my favorite scriptures because it explains so much about death if you take into consideration what Solomon wrote about the subject. He lamented about the futility of our short lives.....'a striving after the wind'....'all was vanity' if we only spent a few short years attaining wisdom and then it was all lost when we died. It made no sense to him. It still makes no sense to many.

But what was Solomon actually saying in this scripture?...and why is it significant?

In the creation account, only humans were created in God's image and were given the opportunity to enjoy everlasting life in paradise conditions on earth. All they had to do was obey one simple command. As intelligent, self determined beings they had an incredible advantage over other lifeforms, but because they were persuaded to abuse their free will, they lost it. So here Solomon is lamenting the fact that humans no longer have that advantage...they still breathe the same air as other living things, but now humans would die the same death....a return to the dust. God never told Adam that he would go to heaven or hell...he was just told that if he disobeyed God's command, he would die....nothing more.

Christ has given us the chance to be born again, that is from the animal to the spiritual, from ignorance to knowledge, from sleep to be awakened.

"What does it mean to be "born again" in the sense that Jesus said it?

He said to Nicodemus.....“Unless anyone is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” (John 3:1-3)
When Nicodemus asked what he meant, Jesus answered..... “Most truly I say to you, Unless anyone is born from water and spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. What has been born from the flesh is flesh, and what has been born from the spirit is spirit. Do not marvel because I told you, You people must be born again.” (John 3:5-7)

Christ's disciples need to be "born again" by first of all submitting to water baptism, then receiving the anointing of God's spirit as a token of their being chosen for a role in the heavenly kingdom.

Being "born again" means a "rebirth" or a transformation from a physical being into a spiritual being like Jesus was. Peter said that Christ was "put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit"...meaning that when his physical body died, Jesus was resurrected as a spirit. Those 'baptized into Christ's death' experience the same kind of death and resurrection. Being "born again" is not an experience that one has when alive....because it facilitates their being able to exist in heaven where Jesus went to prepare a place for them. They have to die a physical death first, or by being transformed when Jesus comes to take them on their final journey.
He made no allusion to "animal to the spiritual, from ignorance to knowledge, from sleep to be awakened" in any progressive process of human development. Though these things can happen in a spiritual sense.

This is how I understand those things.