Heaven and Hell Are Parties?

[BilliardsBall]

No, I don't believe in sin. Those are crimes. What is generally called 'sin' is simply action that causes a reaction either immediately (possibly by civil law), in the near or far future, or in another life. Actions are "rewarded" or "punished" by the laws of karma. Even if punished by civil law, those actions are still subject to the laws of karma.

So, when I get a positive reaction, I've done something positive, and negative actions create negative karma, but when Christians call 100% of the same actions good actions and sin actions instead of "negative actions", you don't believe in sin? A man rapes a child--that is a "negative action" but not a "sin"?

 

[BilliardsBall]

Youre confusing me. My comments colored.

First you said (to someon else)

When people say, "I want to party in Hell with my friends!" do they realize they are saying they have friends like:

• Hitler
• Pol Pot
• Mao Tse Tung
• Stalin

and do people realize the most important thing at a party? It's not the food, entertainment, decorations, venue or time. It's the people.

If these people are partying with the folks above, something they have in common put them in hell. They all have in common their crimes, so yes, you are referring to the people. However, given heaven and hell are not about what people do, what warrents these people to be in hell as opposed to heaven?

Heaven is a party where the mix of people contains only those who won't muss a utopia by never sinning/hurting others/causing others pain--the transformed.

What do you mean muss up an utopia? It has nothing to do with actions. Sinning is an action. So, if these people

• Hitler
• Pol Pot
• Mao Tse Tung
• Stalin

Are not in hell for their crimes, what are they in hell for (partying with their friends)?

Also, hitler and stalin could have given their faith in christ. Why would you list them if you dont know their spiritual belief if not related to their actions?

Then you said this

I'm going to be in Heaven despite my crimes, so yes. "Real Christians" trust Jesus Christ, not their actions, for salvation.

But what if Hitler, Stalin, etc are real christians?

They would be in heaven which would void what you just said here.

Either they are in hell because they sinned and commited crimes and not in heaven to muck up the utopia or it doesnt matter their sins because their sin doesnt send one to hell or heaven but their faith does?

Why the conflicting posts?

Edit: Also, you understand more of what others say when you dont read the posts verbatum. I read it for context. Thats exactly how we read the bible, by context. Thats why it works as a unit not by isolated scriptures no matter how studied. No historian looks at just one set of evidence to piece together christian scripture. It really goes beyond that...

Although it's possible that Hitler and Stalin are in Heaven, I'm fairly confident they're not. Their final acts on this earth included murders and killings.

If you believe, as I do, however, that either could have repented on their deathbed and trusted Jesus for salvation, why can they get saved at the last moment while others, in your understanding, MUST have good works to be saved? Seems neither biblical nor logical.

PS. My "party" lists were satirical. HELL IS NOT A PARTY.

 

[BilliardsBall]

In such a situation, person #2 doesn't have to fully submit to the authority of person #1 if it violates their conscience.
Submitting one's entire will and mind to anyone or anything else is folly, if you ask me. It sounds like slavery.


Okay. You submit to the authority of children?


What kind of person, let alone God, would want people to forego their own conscience, reason, logic and will, in place of complete submission to their authority? Dictators, fascists and mob bosses, that's who.


Yet again, Hitchens summed it up perfectly for me:

"I want to live my life taking the risk all the time that I don’t know anything like enough yet… that I haven’t understood enough… that I can’t know enough… that I am always hungrily operating on the margins of a potentially great harvest of future knowledge and wisdom. I wouldn’t have it any other way. And I’d urge you to look at those who tell you, those people who tell you at your age, that you are dead until you believe as they do. What a terrible thing to be telling to children. …and that you can only live by accepting an absolute authority. Don’t think of that as a gift. Think of it as a poisoned chalice. Push it aside however tempting it is. Take the risk of thinking for yourself. Much more happiness, truth, beauty and wisdom will come to you that way.”
Christopher Hitchens, incandescent

“Religion is a totalitarian belief. It is the wish to be a slave. It is the desire that there be an unalterable, unchallengeable, tyrannical authority who can convict you of thought crime while you are asleep, who can subject you to total surveillance around the clock every waking and sleeping minute of your life, before you're born and, even worse and where the real fun begins, after you're dead. A celestial North Korea. Who wants this to be true? Who but a slave desires such a ghastly fate? I've been to North Korea. It has a dead man as its president, Kim Jong-Il is only head of the party and head of the army. He's not head of the state. That office belongs to his deceased father, Kim Il-Sung. It's a necrocracy, a thanatocracy. It's one short of a trinity I might add. The son is the reincarnation of the father. It is the most revolting and utter and absolute and heartless tyranny the human species has ever evolved. But at least you can f#$%ing die and leave North Korea!”
Quote by Christopher Hitchens: “Religion is a totalitarian belief. It is the wi...”

Per your worldview, Hitchens is nothing now, just a legacy of ideas that are melting over time and will be forgotten soon or at least 1,000 years from today, if not sooner! Per my worldview, Hitchens is in Hell.

Anyone else you want to avidly follow instead? I have some recommendations.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Although it's possible that Hitler and Stalin are in Heaven, I'm fairly confident they're not. Their final acts on this earth included murders and killings.

If you believe, as I do, however, that either could have repented on their deathbed and trusted Jesus for salvation, why can they get saved at the last moment while others, in your understanding, MUST have good works to be saved? Seems neither biblical nor logical.

PS. My "party" lists were satirical. HELL IS NOT A PARTY.

Real quic. Youre literally making what I say fixed.


1. I said faith and deeds are interconnected

2. scripture has with and deeds everywhere verbatum, example, and context.

3. I didnt say MUST. Everyone has their own preference in following god.

4. I would assume those people are judged by their deeds.

5. Basicaly, you can murder etc, you-yourself-can murder and sit back and still go to heaven?

I keep telling you THERE IS NO MUST.

No requirement

I repeat this over again. What you do is part of faith not apart from it. I agree that faith without actions are dead among otehr ways ot say it. But, like taking out James, Im not sure which scriptures you accept and which you dont and your translation of them is highly unique.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Sounds a bit hypocritical.

I suppose God worships himself in the same vein in regards to the aforementioned. Wouldn't that be an Unholy Trinity as well?

There's something to be said for being a leader of oneself as opposed to be in subservient and submissive to another.

One of my favorite lines and Circle of Iron is , " I am my own man".

So your #1 go-to is you for wisdom, life, faith, hope, eternal life... good luck with that?

 

[SkepticThinker]

Per your worldview, Hitchens is nothing now, just a legacy of ideas that are melting over time and will be forgotten soon or at least 1,000 years from today, if not sooner! Per my worldview, Hitchens is in Hell.

Yes, as per my world view. Why do you think yours is better?

Hitchens was a champion of free thought, speech and human rights. If you think he is in hell, that tells me a lot about your religion, and reminds me why I want nothing to do with it. Did you not notice that I had some questions in ther?

Thanks.


P.S. While you're rotting in the ground with the rest of us, people will still be reading Hitchens' books, learning how to free their minds and think for themselves.

P.P.S. I see you've avoided the point and answering any questions again. Ho hum.

 

[SkepticThinker]

So your #1 go-to is you for wisdom, life, faith, hope, eternal life... good luck with that?

You're aware there are other people in the world to look to for such things as well, right?

 

[Jainarayan]

So, when I get a positive reaction, I've done something positive, and negative actions create negative karma, but when Christians call 100% of the same actions good actions and sin actions instead of "negative actions", you don't believe in sin? A man rapes a child--that is a "negative action" but not a "sin"?

We don’t ordinarily use the term sin, or use it in the same way Christians do. There are several words we use depending on the context, but the most common is pāpam (paapam). But it’s not ‘sin’ the way you understand or use it.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Real quic. Youre literally making what I say fixed.


1. I said faith and deeds are interconnected

2. scripture has with and deeds everywhere verbatum, example, and context.

3. I didnt say MUST. Everyone has their own preference in following god.

4. I would assume those people are judged by their deeds.

5. Basicaly, you can murder etc, you-yourself-can murder and sit back and still go to heaven?

I keep telling you THERE IS NO MUST.

No requirement

I repeat this over again. What you do is part of faith not apart from it. I agree that faith without actions are dead among otehr ways ot say it. But, like taking out James, Im not sure which scriptures you accept and which you dont and your translation of them is highly unique.

You cannot be a murderer and also have the Spirit of Christ--see 1 John. No one who is born again can commit murder. I'm free, saved, apart from works, but cannot and will not worship Satan, it's just not in me.

The first rule of Bible interpretation is savor all verses. Atheists have the proof text problem, pulling verses out without any cross-references or immediate context.

You are savoring some verses, though they are unclear, and not relishing hundreds of clear verses describing the gospel and atonement. The good news isn’t “you were striving to be saved by works, so trust Jesus, then strive for good works to be saved.”

I witness frequently to people who say they are striving to be saved by works and don’t need Jesus Christ. The good news is Jesus sets us free from striving to perfect ourselves, free from the curse of the law, sin and death.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Yes, as per my world view. Why do you think yours is better?

Hitchens was a champion of free thought, speech and human rights. If you think he is in hell, that tells me a lot about your religion, and reminds me why I want nothing to do with it. Did you not notice that I had some questions in ther?

Thanks.


P.S. While you're rotting in the ground with the rest of us, people will still be reading Hitchens' books, learning how to free their minds and think for themselves.

P.P.S. I see you've avoided the point and answering any questions again. Ho hum.

I didn't say my worldview is better. I said Hitchens is in trouble regardless. You and I, IMHO, can escape trouble.

Hitchens was also a champion against male circumcision. One rabbi noted it seemed to lead to winning Nobel Prizes.

 

[BilliardsBall]

We don’t ordinarily use the term sin, or use it in the same way Christians do. There are several words we use depending on the context, but the most common is pāpam (paapam). But it’s not ‘sin’ the way you understand or use it.

That I understand, but I feel some relief that those who hurt others will receive from God unless they receive of mercy.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

You cannot be a murderer and also have the Spirit of Christ--see 1 John. No one who is born again can commit murder. I'm free, saved, apart from works, but cannot and will not worship Satan, it's just not in me.

The first rule of Bible interpretation is savor all verses. Atheists have the proof text problem, pulling verses out without any cross-references or immediate context.

You are savoring some verses, though they are unclear, and not relishing hundreds of clear verses describing the gospel and atonement. The good news isn’t “you were striving to be saved by works, so trust Jesus, then strive for good works to be saved.”

I witness frequently to people who say they are striving to be saved by works and don’t need Jesus Christ. The good news is Jesus sets us free from striving to perfect ourselves, free from the curse of the law, sin and death.

Disagreeing doesnt mean I havent read your verses.

Sorry. Trying to make this short so you can read it in full.

If deeds and faith are not a salvational issue, it does not matter if a person is a murderer or a believer because they both have faith in christ.

Since deeds are not a salvational issue, you are judging a persons faith by what they do not what they believe. Thats contradicting your other statements.

 

[SkepticThinker]

I didn't say my worldview is better. I said Hitchens is in trouble regardless. You and I, IMHO, can escape trouble.

Hitchens was also a champion against male circumcision. One rabbi noted it seemed to lead to winning Nobel Prizes.[/quote]

Maybe he's "in trouble." But more likely, he's just dead. His words will live on though. He's got that going for him.

Just out of curiosity, do you make a point not to answer questions posed to you?

 

[Jainarayan]

That I understand, but I feel some relief that those who hurt others will receive from God unless they receive of mercy.

In our beliefs it's not God who metes out "justice" or punishment, nor does he judge. The laws of karma do that. However, God does for special reasons at special times grant special grace. For reasons known only to him he may override karma and grant moksha to a soul. In Vaishnava belief (my sect) he says that if one remembers only him at the time of quitting the body, the soul will go directly to him, attaining moksha. The soul will never be reborn again. But it's not as easy as you might think to remember him. George Harrison is said to have been chanting God's names on his deathbed... boom! instant moksha. But what if one dies in one's sleep? One should remember God when going to sleep, so the last thoughts are of God. Tractor trailer going 60 mph with your name on it? Kind of tough when the last thing you'll probably think (or say) is "oh ****! I'm gonna die!"... still in the cycle of rebirth. Unless of course you call out his name(s).

 

[BilliardsBall]

Disagreeing doesnt mean I havent read your verses.

Sorry. Trying to make this short so you can read it in full.

If deeds and faith are not a salvational issue, it does not matter if a person is a murderer or a believer because they both have faith in christ.

Since deeds are not a salvational issue, you are judging a persons faith by what they do not what they believe. Thats contradicting your other statements.

I'm using biblically-guided judgment, for example, you questioned about murder, the Bible says murderers are unsaved persons. Hitler and Stalin were murderers. Indeed, John says in 1 John when people are in fellowship for a long time, without false doctrine or changing, you can comfortably know they're saved. I know I am saved.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Hitchens was also a champion against male circumcision. One rabbi noted it seemed to lead to winning Nobel Prizes.

Maybe he's "in trouble." But more likely, he's just dead. His words will live on though. He's got that going for him.

Just out of curiosity, do you make a point not to answer questions posed to you?[/QUOTE]

I'm a popular man on these forums, I try to limit answers to people who seem like open minded, spiritual seekers. Don't tell me you seek the divine experience? Am I wrong here? Also, since Jesus said, "seek truth indeed and I'll find you," I really don't need to answer every question--those who want Jesus will find Him IMHO.

PS. Note I just answered your question.

 

[BilliardsBall]

In our beliefs it's not God who metes out "justice" or punishment, nor does he judge. The laws of karma do that. However, God does for special reasons at special times grant special grace. For reasons known only to him he may override karma and grant moksha to a soul. In Vaishnava belief (my sect) he says that if one remembers only him at the time of quitting the body, the soul will go directly to him, attaining moksha. The soul will never be reborn again. But it's not as easy as you might think to remember him. George Harrison is said to have been chanting God's names on his deathbed... boom! instant moksha. But what if one dies in one's sleep? One should remember God when going to sleep, so the last thoughts are of God. Tractor trailer going 60 mph with your name on it? Kind of tough when the last thing you'll probably think (or say) is "oh ****! I'm gonna die!"... still in the cycle of rebirth. Unless of course you call out his name(s).

What do you say when people ask, "since some progress toward overcoming this re-birthing process, why are they continually more people here"? I must say, since only a few got out of here, I don't find my odds in this belief system hopeful at all.

 

[Jainarayan]

What do you say when people ask, "since some progress toward overcoming this re-birthing process, why are they continually more people here"? I must say, since only a few got out of here, I don't find my odds in this belief system hopeful at all.

Rebirth occurs for all sentient beings. Rebirth as a human is probably the highest rebirth there is. Of course, a human can fall down and be reborn as rabbit. That said, rates of one species go down, others go up. Countless souls are between births, waiting either by choice (they may have so much merit they can choose their next birth, but born they will be) or their birth is somehow "assigned". Some of those souls may be other beings on other worlds and/or planes. Hinduism does not or discount that idea; in fact, it embraces it. Writings say there are 8+ million species of humans... human humans? or humanoids from other worlds? If so, there's no reason not to believe that souls move from planet to planet, plane to plane, dimension to dimension. Hinduism also fully accepts multiverses. Talk about immigration!

 

[SkepticThinker]

I'm a popular man on these forums, I try to limit answers to people who seem like open minded, spiritual seekers. Don't tell me you seek the divine experience? Am I wrong here? Also, since Jesus said, "seek truth indeed and I'll find you," I really don't need to answer every question--those who want Jesus will find Him IMHO.

PS. Note I just answered your question.

Jesus doesn't seem to be filling anything in on these forums here, so I'm going to have to stick to asking you to answer my questions.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Rebirth occurs for all sentient beings. Rebirth as a human is probably the highest rebirth there is. Of course, a human can fall down and be reborn as rabbit. That said, rates of one species go down, others go up. Countless souls are between births, waiting either by choice (they may have so much merit they can choose their next birth, but born they will be) or their birth is somehow "assigned". Some of those souls may be other beings on other worlds and/or planes. Hinduism does not or discount that idea; in fact, it embraces it. Writings say there are 8+ million species of humans... human humans? or humanoids from other worlds? If so, there's no reason not to believe that souls move from planet to planet, plane to plane, dimension to dimension. Hinduism also fully accepts multiverses. Talk about immigration!

I understand these concepts, and have a Bachelor's in Religion where we explored different faiths and concepts, however, the animal and human population here continues to increase.