Heaven and Hell Are Parties?

[Unveiled Artist]

I led someone to Christ yesterday afternoon, a very nice fellow who trusted Jesus for salvation, and it got me thinking. When people say, "I want to party in Hell with my friends!" do they realize they are saying they have friends like:

• Hitler
• Pol Pot
• Mao Tse Tung
• Stalin

and do people realize the most important thing at a party? It's not the food, entertainment, decorations, venue or time. It's the people.

Heaven is a party where the mix of people contains only those who won't muss a utopia by never sinning/hurting others/causing others pain--the transformed.

This was the post I'm referring to (I'm out so I'll get to the other in a bit)

How would these people be on hell partying (they seem to have something in common, their crimes) when their crimes don't dictate whether they go to hell but their faith in Christ?

Also, would you think these people would be in heaven despite their crimes (assuming you don't base whether they were real christians on their actions)?

 

[sealchan]

I led someone to Christ yesterday afternoon, a very nice fellow who trusted Jesus for salvation, and it got me thinking. When people say, "I want to party in Hell with my friends!" do they realize they are saying they have friends like:

• Hitler
• Pol Pot
• Mao Tse Tung
• Stalin

and do people realize the most important thing at a party? It's not the food, entertainment, decorations, venue or time. It's the people.

Heaven is a party where the mix of people contains only those who won't muss a utopia by never sinning/hurting others/causing others pain--the transformed.

Heaven and Hell are not literal places we go after we die but imaginative realms to contemplate in order to understand our experience while alive.

Any belief which poses a life with an outcome as being thumbs up or thumbs down is a child's belief.

Adults know that morality and belief is a much more complex thing...such is what the Bible teaches even as it also, cleverly, models more simplistic notions.

Consider the birth of Jesus...there was the specter of "fornication" to contend with...why include that in the story? This same specter became, perhaps, the inspiration for the later Christian story of the birth of King Arthur.

 

[sealchan]

Sorry for putting both in all caps. Not yelling inside, I just don't always feel like using italics. CAPS is faster for me.

Stalin isn't in Hell for his actions or in Heaven for his actions. Rather, the Bible puts it this way:

1) Utopias need perfect citizens

2) People today aren't ready to live in utopia - they act against conscience and hurt themselves and others

3) Jesus wants everyone in Heaven, everyone who trusts Him for salvation receives of His divine power in the end to be enabled to live in a utopia--I will never again hurt someone and will never again go against conscience

4) All those who are not transformed are quarantined from the morally perfect - the entire known universe will be purged and remade, the imperfect will be barred and separated

Heaven and Hell aren't rewards and punishments for behavior, they are separating the clean from the unclean for future, not present actions.

What room is there for conscience when even bad thoughts may not arise?

Like so many who flesh out their fantasy about heaven, you seem to think that you can enjoy freedom and meaning without the possibility of evil.

The keys to the Kingdom of Heaven are on earth and found through suffering. It is not a future state but a reality that can be experienced now through the cultivation of the right psychological attitude...per Jesus.

 

[Rishi]

Considering Hitler is a self-confessed believer in Jesus what makes you think he'd be in the Christian Hell?

The Roman Catholic Church and the Pope denounced Hitler, he sent thousands of Christians to concentration camps and shut down their Churches, plus academic documents prove he and his leadership had long-term plans to get rid of Christianity in Germany. Hypothetically he’s definitely burning in Hell as he should be.

 

[Jainarayan]

Jesus dying on a cross while forgiving those who crucified Him, and telling people about Heaven and Hell, then letting them have complete free will, is a "baseball bat to the head"?

I don't believe he died on the cross, or any other way, for anyone's sins, sin being a concept I don't believe in. The baseball bat to the head is just what I said I don't believe in... being pushed by people who think their way is the only way. If he did die on a cross, it was his own business to forgive the people who did it, but it has nothing to do with dying for me.

Like I said, something awkward and religious befell you that wasn't real Christianity.

Yeah, the teachings as pushed by other humans.

 

[Jainarayan]

believe in end times judgment...

No, we do not.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Interesting. So if a powerful God exists and judges, submission and subservience is a bad idea?

Submission and subservience? Who in the world would want to live like that?

 

[SkepticThinker]

Interesting. So if a powerful God exists and judges, submission and subservience is a bad idea?

Submission and subservience is always a bad idea.

 

[BilliardsBall]

This was the post I'm referring to (I'm out so I'll get to the other in a bit)

How would these people be on hell partying (they seem to have something in common, their crimes) when their crimes don't dictate whether they go to hell but their faith in Christ?

Also, would you think these people would be in heaven despite their crimes (assuming you don't base whether they were real christians on their actions)?

Hell isn't a party, my post addresses those who say it is.

I'm going to be in Heaven despite my crimes, so yes. "Real Christians" trust Jesus Christ, not their actions, for salvation.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Heaven and Hell are not literal places we go after we die but imaginative realms to contemplate in order to understand our experience while alive.

Any belief which poses a life with an outcome as being thumbs up or thumbs down is a child's belief.

Adults know that morality and belief is a much more complex thing...such is what the Bible teaches even as it also, cleverly, models more simplistic notions.

Consider the birth of Jesus...there was the specter of "fornication" to contend with...why include that in the story? This same specter became, perhaps, the inspiration for the later Christian story of the birth of King Arthur.

Jesus rose from the dead, so when He speaks of the afterlife, I trust Him. I cannot trust you if you sin.

 

[BilliardsBall]

What room is there for conscience when even bad thoughts may not arise?

Like so many who flesh out their fantasy about heaven, you seem to think that you can enjoy freedom and meaning without the possibility of evil.

The keys to the Kingdom of Heaven are on earth and found through suffering. It is not a future state but a reality that can be experienced now through the cultivation of the right psychological attitude...per Jesus.

I'd respond if I understood what you wrote here. Please rephrase it.

 

[BilliardsBall]

I don't believe he died on the cross, or any other way, for anyone's sins, sin being a concept I don't believe in. The baseball bat to the head is just what I said I don't believe in... being pushed by people who think their way is the only way. If he did die on a cross, it was his own business to forgive the people who did it, but it has nothing to do with dying for me.



Yeah, the teachings as pushed by other humans.

You don't believe in sin? Spend some time chatting with rapist, murderers, paedophiles... try a little prison ministry sometime.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Submission and subservience? Who in the world would want to live like that?

Those who love supporting others in relationships:

1) I submit to a professor when I read his syllabus or study for her tests, and ask questions, humbly.

2) I submit to my children when I stop running my mouth like a forum skeptic, and actually listen.

3) I submit to God who can guide me into blessing and eternal life.

You submit to none because you worship an unholy trinity, "me, myself and I", making you excluded from the power of submission.

The second most powerful warrior? The #2 in the army, who submits to #1. Submit!

 

[BilliardsBall]

Submission and subservience is always a bad idea.

There is power in submission. #2 submits to #1, a Colonel to a General, or the war is lost.

I even submit to little children when I stop foaming at the mouth like a forum skeptic, submit and listen.

Submit to God and get blessed. Stop worshiping the unholy trinity of me, myself and I and learn the POWER of humble submission.

 

[Jainarayan]

You don't believe in sin? Spend some time chatting with rapist, murderers, paedophiles... try a little prison ministry sometime.

No, I don't believe in sin. Those are crimes. What is generally called 'sin' is simply action that causes a reaction either immediately (possibly by civil law), in the near or far future, or in another life. Actions are "rewarded" or "punished" by the laws of karma. Even if punished by civil law, those actions are still subject to the laws of karma.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Hell isn't a party, my post addresses those who say it is.

I'm going to be in Heaven despite my crimes, so yes. "Real Christians" trust Jesus Christ, not their actions, for salvation.

Youre confusing me. My comments colored.

First you said (to someon else)

When people say, "I want to party in Hell with my friends!" do they realize they are saying they have friends like:

• Hitler
• Pol Pot
• Mao Tse Tung
• Stalin

and do people realize the most important thing at a party? It's not the food, entertainment, decorations, venue or time. It's the people.

If these people are partying with the folks above, something they have in common put them in hell. They all have in common their crimes, so yes, you are referring to the people. However, given heaven and hell are not about what people do, what warrents these people to be in hell as opposed to heaven?

Heaven is a party where the mix of people contains only those who won't muss a utopia by never sinning/hurting others/causing others pain--the transformed.

What do you mean muss up an utopia? It has nothing to do with actions. Sinning is an action. So, if these people

• Hitler
• Pol Pot
• Mao Tse Tung
• Stalin

Are not in hell for their crimes, what are they in hell for (partying with their friends)?

Also, hitler and stalin could have given their faith in christ. Why would you list them if you dont know their spiritual belief if not related to their actions?

Then you said this

I'm going to be in Heaven despite my crimes, so yes. "Real Christians" trust Jesus Christ, not their actions, for salvation.

But what if Hitler, Stalin, etc are real christians?

They would be in heaven which would void what you just said here.

Either they are in hell because they sinned and commited crimes and not in heaven to muck up the utopia or it doesnt matter their sins because their sin doesnt send one to hell or heaven but their faith does?

Why the conflicting posts?

Edit: Also, you understand more of what others say when you dont read the posts verbatum. I read it for context. Thats exactly how we read the bible, by context. Thats why it works as a unit not by isolated scriptures no matter how studied. No historian looks at just one set of evidence to piece together christian scripture. It really goes beyond that...

 

[SkepticThinker]

There is power in submission. #2 submits to #1, a Colonel to a General, or the war is lost.

In such a situation, person #2 doesn't have to fully submit to the authority of person #1 if it violates their conscience.
Submitting one's entire will and mind to anyone or anything else is folly, if you ask me. It sounds like slavery.

I even submit to little children when I stop foaming at the mouth like a forum skeptic, submit and listen.

Okay. You submit to the authority of children?

Submit to God and get blessed. Stop worshiping the unholy trinity of me, myself and I and learn the POWER of humble submission.

What kind of person, let alone God, would want people to forego their own conscience, reason, logic and will, in place of complete submission to their authority? Dictators, fascists and mob bosses, that's who.


Yet again, Hitchens summed it up perfectly for me:

"I want to live my life taking the risk all the time that I don’t know anything like enough yet… that I haven’t understood enough… that I can’t know enough… that I am always hungrily operating on the margins of a potentially great harvest of future knowledge and wisdom. I wouldn’t have it any other way. And I’d urge you to look at those who tell you, those people who tell you at your age, that you are dead until you believe as they do. What a terrible thing to be telling to children. …and that you can only live by accepting an absolute authority. Don’t think of that as a gift. Think of it as a poisoned chalice. Push it aside however tempting it is. Take the risk of thinking for yourself. Much more happiness, truth, beauty and wisdom will come to you that way.”
Christopher Hitchens, incandescent

“Religion is a totalitarian belief. It is the wish to be a slave. It is the desire that there be an unalterable, unchallengeable, tyrannical authority who can convict you of thought crime while you are asleep, who can subject you to total surveillance around the clock every waking and sleeping minute of your life, before you're born and, even worse and where the real fun begins, after you're dead. A celestial North Korea. Who wants this to be true? Who but a slave desires such a ghastly fate? I've been to North Korea. It has a dead man as its president, Kim Jong-Il is only head of the party and head of the army. He's not head of the state. That office belongs to his deceased father, Kim Il-Sung. It's a necrocracy, a thanatocracy. It's one short of a trinity I might add. The son is the reincarnation of the father. It is the most revolting and utter and absolute and heartless tyranny the human species has ever evolved. But at least you can f#$%ing die and leave North Korea!”
Quote by Christopher Hitchens: “Religion is a totalitarian belief. It is the wi...”

 

[sealchan]

Youre confusing me. My comments colored.

First you said (to someon else)

When people say, "I want to party in Hell with my friends!" do they realize they are saying they have friends like:

• Hitler
• Pol Pot
• Mao Tse Tung
• Stalin

and do people realize the most important thing at a party? It's not the food, entertainment, decorations, venue or time. It's the people.

If these people are partying with the folks above, something they have in common put them in hell. They all have in common their crimes, so yes, you are referring to the people. However, given heaven and hell are not about what people do, what warrents these people to be in hell as opposed to heaven?

Heaven is a party where the mix of people contains only those who won't muss a utopia by never sinning/hurting others/causing others pain--the transformed.

What do you mean muss up an utopia? It has nothing to do with actions. Sinning is an action. So, if these people

• Hitler
• Pol Pot
• Mao Tse Tung
• Stalin

Are not in hell for their crimes, what are they in hell for (partying with their friends)?

Also, hitler and stalin could have given their faith in christ. Why would you list them if you dont know their spiritual belief if not related to their actions?

Then you said this

I'm going to be in Heaven despite my crimes, so yes. "Real Christians" trust Jesus Christ, not their actions, for salvation.

But what if Hitler, Stalin, etc are real christians?

They would be in heaven which would void what you just said here.

Either they are in hell because they sinned and commited crimes and not in heaven to muck up the utopia or it doesnt matter their sins because their sin doesnt send one to hell or heaven but their faith does?

Why the conflicting posts?

Edit: Also, you understand more of what others say when you dont read the posts verbatum. I read it for context. Thats exactly how we read the bible, by context. Thats why it works as a unit not by isolated scriptures no matter how studied. No historian looks at just one set of evidence to piece together christian scripture. It really goes beyond that...

And, after all, no one of here are God, so who are we to know who is and who is not in heaven. Are we to judge based on our own understanding of Gods Word. Doesn't Gods Word say that we are not?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

And, after all, no one of here are God, so who are we to know who is and who is not in heaven. Are we to judge based on our own understanding of Gods Word. Doesn't Gods Word say that we are not?

Who knows. Im just going by scripture and what I understand of it. Scripturally, only god knows. Its a pattern that protestant christians talk for god so after awhile you kinda get used to it.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Those who love supporting others in relationships:

1) I submit to a professor when I read his syllabus or study for her tests, and ask questions, humbly.

2) I submit to my children when I stop running my mouth like a forum skeptic, and actually listen.

3) I submit to God who can guide me into blessing and eternal life.

You submit to none because you worship an unholy trinity, "me, myself and I", making you excluded from the power of submission.

The second most powerful warrior? The #2 in the army, who submits to #1. Submit!

Sounds a bit hypocritical.

I suppose God worships himself in the same vein in regards to the aforementioned. Wouldn't that be an Unholy Trinity as well?

There's something to be said for being a leader of oneself as opposed to be in subservient and submissive to another.

One of my favorite lines and Circle of Iron is , " I am my own man".