1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured Heal me, O LORD

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by Redemptionsong, Oct 27, 2020.

  1. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2014
    Messages:
    2,330
    Ratings:
    +300
    This may seem a bit petty, but is it not true that the Holy Spirit was given at baptism to Jesus, not to Christ? The anointing by the Holy Spirit is what enables us to call Jesus 'Christ', the Anointed One.

    Christ Jesus, the risen Lord, baptises with the Holy Spirit [Mark 1:8; Luke 3:16]

    There are four occasions in John's Gospel where the Comforter is mentioned. Can you tell me where it says GOD sends the Holy Spirit? It says that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the FATHER, and is sent by the SON [John 15:26; John 16:7]. Jesus Christ also says 'I will come to you'. Jesus Christ equates Himself with the Spirit of Truth [John 14:17]. This makes the risen Lord, Christ Jesus, one with the Father, as God.

    John 14:7-9: 'If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from hence forth ye know him, and have seen him.
    Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
    Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long a time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?'
     
  2. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2014
    Messages:
    2,330
    Ratings:
    +300
    If, as you rightly say, the one shepherd of Ezekiel 34:23 is Jesus Christ, then I assume you think that Psalm 23:1 is a reference to Jesus Christ?

    If you think that the LORD in heaven is the one shepherd, what does that make the good shepherd on earth? If we follow the shepherd on earth, why is He not our Lord and God? Thomas realised he was!

    I can apply this logic and thinking to many titles used of God: the one Saviour, Judge, Redeemer, the Good Shepherd, the Rock, and the Truth....to mention just a few! If Jesus Christ is these things, as we are told, how can he not be our God?

    It seems to me that a JW is being asked to follow the General without acknowledging that it's the Captain giving the men orders! If you do not follow the Captain, then in truth you are not following the General! If you ignore the Captain, you're clueless and leaderless because the General remains in the HQ, and is unobtainable.
     
  3. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2009
    Messages:
    13,658
    Ratings:
    +7,548
    Religion:
    Christian JW
    If translation is not clear, but produces confusion with language that is outdated and not clearly understood, then what is the point?
    1 Corinthians 14:8.....
    “If the trumpet sounds an indistinct call, who will get ready for battle?”

    Some people adhere to the KJV as if it was the original word of God. It’s a translation like any other. One language translated into something readable and easily understood by the native reader.

    Archaic English has no place in the 21st century unless one is performing Shakespeare.

    Ah, but this is the beauty of such resources......they reveal their own bias by showing us how the original language was rendered, and so often I find that the trinitarian translation does not adhere to their own definitions....John 1:18 in the KJV is a prime example. Only a trinitarian would render "son" in this verse, instead of "god". Jesus is an "only begotten god" (monogenes theos) in that verse, and we all know that "God" is not "begotten", so it cannot be referring to Jehovah. It clearly says that "no man has ever seen God".....thousands saw Jesus.

    It’s the reason why I also like to refer to the Tanakh when examining Hebrew texts.
    Exodus 3: 13-15 is often mistranslated to suggest that the meaning of God’s name is “I AM”, linking it to Jesus saying “I am” in John 8:58, to indicate that he is God.
    The Tanakh does not say that God’s name means “I AM” at all.....

    Exodus 3:13-15......
    "And Moses said to God, "Behold I come to the children of Israel, and I say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you,' and they say to me, 'What is His name?' what shall I say to them?" יגוַיֹּ֨אמֶר משֶׁ֜ה אֶל־הָֽאֱלֹהִ֗ים הִנֵּ֨ה אָֽנֹכִ֣י בָא֘ אֶל־בְּנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵל֒ וְאָֽמַרְתִּ֣י לָהֶ֔ם אֱלֹהֵ֥י אֲבֽוֹתֵיכֶ֖ם שְׁלָחַ֣נִי אֲלֵיכֶ֑ם וְאָֽמְרוּ־לִ֣י מַה־שְּׁמ֔וֹ מָ֥ה אֹמַ֖ר אֲלֵהֶֽם:
    14God said to Moses, "Ehyeh asher ehyeh (I will be what I will be)," and He said, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'Ehyeh (I will be) has sent me to you.'" ידוַיֹּ֤אמֶר אֱלֹהִים֙ אֶל־משֶׁ֔ה אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה אֲשֶׁ֣ר אֶֽהְיֶ֑ה וַיֹּ֗אמֶר כֹּ֤ה תֹאמַר֙ לִבְנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵ֔ל אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה שְׁלָחַ֥נִי אֲלֵיכֶֽם:
    15And God said further to Moses, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'The Lord God of your forefathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.' This is My name forever, and this is how I should be mentioned in every generation. טווַיֹּ֩אמֶר֩ ע֨וֹד אֱלֹהִ֜ים אֶל־משֶׁ֗ה כֹּ֣ה תֹאמַר֘ אֶל־בְּנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵל֒ יְהֹוָ֞ה אֱלֹהֵ֣י אֲבֹֽתֵיכֶ֗ם אֱלֹהֵ֨י אַבְרָהָ֜ם אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִצְחָ֛ק וֵֽאלֹהֵ֥י יַֽעֲקֹ֖ב שְׁלָחַ֣נִי אֲלֵיכֶ֑ם זֶה־שְּׁמִ֣י לְעֹלָ֔ם וְזֶ֥ה זִכְרִ֖י לְדֹ֥ר דֹּֽר:

    https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/9864

    So, according to the Tanakh, God’s name means “I WILL BE”....breaking any connection with “I AM” as the meaning of God’s name. "The Lord God" is יְהֹוָ֞ה .(Yahweh, Jehovah)

    So you see the concordances sometimes work in reverse for me. I love it when that happens. :)
     
    #123 Deeje, Nov 14, 2020
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2020
  4. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2009
    Messages:
    13,658
    Ratings:
    +7,548
    Religion:
    Christian JW
    Are you really grasping at straws now? :D

    The Father sent Jesus from heaven as the scriptures clearly establish. The Father is the "only true God" by Jesus' own admission. He did not include himself in that definition. (John 17:3)

    Everything that takes place on this earth is under the jurisdiction of God's son because he is the one "through" whom creation came, (Colossians 1:15-17) and he is the appointed King of God's Kingdom. (Revelation 11:15) He is the one "through" whom salvation comes to the human race. Jesus is the one who ransomed us with his own life, which meant that he had to be 100% mortal human to die. That means that he was never 100% immortal "God". Please show me one statement in the Bible where Jesus claims to be "God"?

    Everything from the Father comes "through" or by means of his chief agent.

    The holy spirit came from God to Jesus at his baptism in order to anoint him and to empower him for his mission. According to your version of the trinity, Jesus was not 'God' when he was born, but became "God" at his baptism....meaning that Jesus was 'God' for only three and a half years on earth, but went back to being God in heaven....is that correct? How then does Jesus identify the father as his "God" in heaven? (Revelation 3:12)
     
    #124 Deeje, Nov 14, 2020
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2020
  5. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2009
    Messages:
    13,658
    Ratings:
    +7,548
    Religion:
    Christian JW
    Thomas acknowledged Jesus as "theos" a divine representative of his God. One expression by a doubting Thomas does not make a doctrine. "Theos" in Greek simply means a divine personage or one with divine authority....Jesus was both, but he was not "ho theos". The apostles already knew the rank and order.....

    "For even though there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many “gods” and many “lords,” 6 there is actually to us one God, the Father, from whom all things are and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are and we through him." (1 Corinthians 8:5-6)

    Would Thomas have contradicted that belief?

    Now is perhaps a good time to mention the confusion that occurs because the Jews stopped using God's unique name.
    The title "Lord" (Adonai) is ambiguous because it simply means something like "Sir" or "Master" in English.

    So let's examine Ezekiel 34:23-24 from the Tanakh...

    "And I shall put up over them one shepherd and he will shepherd them, namely My servant David; he will shepherd them, and he will be for them as a shepherd. כגוַֽהֲקִֽמֹתִ֨י עֲלֵיהֶ֜ם רֹעֶ֚ה אֶחָד֙ וְרָעָ֣ה אֶתְהֶ֔ן אֵ֖ת עַבְדִּ֣י דָוִ֑יד הוּא יִרְעֶ֣ה אוֹתָ֔ם וְה֛וּא יִֽהְיֶ֥ה לָהֶ֖ן לְרֹעֶֽה:

    24 And I, the Lord, shall be to them for a God, and My servant David [will be] a prince in their midst; I, the Lord, have spoken. כדוַֽאֲנִ֣י יְהֹוָ֗ה אֶהְיֶ֚ה לָהֶם֙ לֵֽאלֹהִ֔ים וְעַבְדִּ֥י דָוִ֖ד נָשִׂ֣יא בְתוֹכָ֑ם אֲנִ֥י יְהֹוָ֖ה דִּבַּֽרְתִּי:"


    So David is the "shepherd" here, and David's role prefigured that of Jesus....the one David acknowledged as his "Lord" or "Master". (Psalm 110:1-2, which reads... "The word of the Lord to my master; "Wait for My right hand, until I make your enemies a footstool at your feet." אלְדָוִ֗ד מִ֫זְמ֥וֹר נְאֻ֚ם יְהֹוָ֨ה | לַֽאדֹנִ֗י שֵׁ֥ב לִֽימִינִ֑י עַד־אָשִׁ֥ית אֹֽ֜יְבֶ֗יךָ הֲדֹ֣ם לְרַגְלֶֽיךָ:)

    It is God who has assigned this role of shepherd. Right? David was the shepherd assigned to God's people at that time, but he acknowledged that Messiah was his "Master"....and יְהֹוָ֨ה was his God. The shepherd would be a "servant" and a "Prince"....both of those designations apply to Jesus....but never to God.

    Now let's look at Psalm 23:1 and see who is the Shepherd spoken about here.....

    "The Lord is my shepherd; I shall not want. אמִזְמ֥וֹר לְדָוִ֑ד יְהֹוָ֥ה רֹ֜עִ֗י לֹ֣א אֶחְסָֽר:"
    The Lord here is יְהֹוָ֥ה
    Can he also be a shepherd to his people Israel before the coming of the Messiah? These titles are confusing when God's name is left out of the text.

    In Bible times there were shepherds who worked under the oversight of other shepherds. We might get confused with titles when in the scriptures Jesus and his Father are both addressed by the same title? But the role of "shepherd" is no more specific to Jehovah than is the title "Lord" or "savior". Jesus and his Father can rightly be addressed as both.

    The son is the agent of or servant of his God...his "right hand man"...his "Logos" or spokesman. He has always acted in this capacity....from "the beginning". (John 1:1) What "beginning" is this, since God had no beginning?

    All of the titles above can apply to both the Father and his son, without Jesus being God. Don't you see, there is more scripture that argues against the trinity than there is to support it. Any scripture that implies a trinity, is at best a vague inference or open to interpretation.

    How are we ignoring either the Captain or the General....please tell us...We know who has superior rank....do you? (1 Corinthians 11:3)
    The Captain may give us the General's orders, but he does not make the orders, he just carries them out, like a good "servant" should. He cannot be both the Master and the servant at the same time.

    As long as sin remains in the world our Mediator will continue to act in his behalf......we have direct access to Jehovah in prayer but it is only through the mediator that he provided to make that possible. How can you not understand this? :shrug:
     
    #125 Deeje, Nov 14, 2020
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2020
  6. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2014
    Messages:
    2,330
    Ratings:
    +300
    This is not clearly established, as you claim. If Jesus is 100% human, as is clear, then Jesus is not God. The Holy Spirit, on the other hand, did come from the Father in heaven. The Word, which is Holy Spirit, came from the Father.

    You have confused that which is of God, and divine, with that which is flesh, and of earth. Jesus Christ was the Mediator on earth, both fully man and fully God, but when he ascends to heaven he ascends as an incorruptible Son of Man. He is no longer the 'prince' on earth, heir to the throne, but the King enthroned in heaven. He is seated alongside the Father.

    Isaiah 45:22-25: ' Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.
    I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return,
    That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
    Surely, shall one say, in the LORD have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed.
    In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.'

    Philippians 2:9-11: 'Wherefore God [the Father] also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
    That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
    And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father'.

    Here we have the problem laid bare. In Isaiah, it is clear that it is God unto whom 'every knee shall bow' and unto whom 'every tongue shall swear'. Then, in Philippians, we see that God must include the Son, unto whom 'every knee should bow' and unto whom 'every tongue should confess'.

    How, then, can the Son not be the 'righteousness and strength' of God? IMO, you are failing to recognise the person of Jesus Christ [Jehovah with us]!

    This is possibly why JWs do not understand what it means to be 'born again' of the Spirit of Christ.
     
  7. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2009
    Messages:
    13,658
    Ratings:
    +7,548
    Religion:
    Christian JW
    If Jesus is not God then there is no trinity. Jesus was 100% human...the exact equivalent of Adam. His life cancelled out the debt that Adam incurred for his children. Do you not understand the mechanics of redemption?

    Revelation 19:13...
    "I saw heaven opened, and look! a white horse. And the one seated on it is called Faithful and True, and he judges and carries on war in righteousness. 12 His eyes are a fiery flame, and on his head are many diadems. He has a name written that no one knows but he himself, 13 and he is clothed with an outer garment stained with blood, and he is called by the name The Word of God."

    This is none other than the resurrected Jesus Christ, coming to complete his conquest. The diadems denote a crown for this King, identified as "The Word of God".....
    Since when is the holy spirit ever called "the Word of God"? :facepalm:

    John 1:14...
    "So the Word became flesh and resided among us, and we had a view of his glory, a glory such as belongs to an only-begotten son from a father; and he was full of divine favor and truth."

    The Word is not the holy spirit as John clearly says....this is one who reflects glory such as "belongs to an only begotten son from a Father"....The Word is Jesus in his pre-human form. For heaven's sake man...open your eyes. :oops:

    Not until the fourth century C.E. did the teaching that the holy spirit was a person and part of the “Godhead” become official church dogma. Early church “fathers” did not teach it; Justin Martyr of the second century C.E. taught that the holy spirit was an ‘influence or mode of operation of the Deity’; Hippolytus likewise ascribed no personality to the holy spirit. The Scriptures themselves unite to show that God’s holy spirit is not a person but is God’s active force by which he accomplishes his purpose and executes his will."

    Now if John 1:15-18 says...
    "15 (John bore witness about him, yes, he cried out: “This was the one of whom I said, ‘The one coming behind me has advanced in front of me, for he existed before me.’”) . . . . .18 No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is at the Father’s side is the one who has explained Him."

    Now if John the Baptist and Jesus were cousins, and John was six months older than Jesus, can you tell me how John's words..."The one coming behind me has advanced in front of me, for he existed before me" makes any sense from your POV? How did Jesus exist before John?

    How can Jesus be the "only begotten god"? To be "begotten" means to "bring into existence", so Jesus as the "firstborn of all creation" (Colossians 1:15-17) was "begotten" by his Father, and he existed before anything else. He was the one "through" whom creation came to be.

    One of us is confused.....:confused:

    Jesus was "the Word" (Logos) who was "with God" in "the beginning". He has been appointed as "a mediator between God and men".......so how can he be God if he is the 'go-between'?

    Did you read right over the part that says...."Wherefore God [the Father] also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
    How does God [the Father] highly exalt "God the Son" if he is his equal? Jehovah is "the Most High over all the earth" (Psalm 83:18)...how can anyone be higher than the Most High?


    From Exodus 3:15, we see that God identified himself by one name (YHWH, Yahweh, Jehovah) for every generation to come.

    And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father'."


    Why can you not see that Jesus Christ is Lord (not God) to the glory of God the Father".
    If he is God then why is he not promoting his own glory?

    Was God "with" his people Israel? Was he there with them in person? How did he demonstrate that he was "with" them....and how were Israel supposed to demonstrate that they were with God?

    I know one of us is failing to recognize Jesus for who he really is.....the person he himself said he was....."the son of God".

    John 10:31-37...
    "Once again the Jews picked up stones to stone him. 32 Jesus replied to them: “I displayed to you many fine works from the Father. For which of those works are you stoning me?” 33 The Jews answered him: “We are stoning you, not for a fine work, but for blasphemy; for you, although being a man, make yourself a god.” 34 Jesus answered them: “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I said: “You are gods”’? 35 If he called ‘gods’ those against whom the word of God came—and yet the scripture cannot be nullified36 do you say to me whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You blaspheme,’ because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’?"
    Just read the scriptures the way that they are written.....you cannot support the trinity from scripture.

    We understand perfectly well.....its a rebirth from flesh to spirit. It means dying as a mortal human and being raised as an immortal spirit...just like Jesus was. I think you are the one who doesn't understand what it means to be "born again"....being baptized in water and with holy spirit, with the promise of life as a 'king and priest' in God's heavenly Kingdom. These ones will rule earthly subjects. The Bible narrative is not that complicated....
     
  8. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2014
    Messages:
    2,330
    Ratings:
    +300
    No, I disagree. Jesus is the man, the vessel into which the Word, the Holy Spirit of God, descended. At birth, Mary's egg was fertilised by the overshadowing of the Holy Spirit. There is nothing to indicate a baptism with the Holy Spirit when the baby Jesus was born.

    Jesus is the son of God, under the law, from birth, because his Father is God. Jesus assumes the title of Christ at the age of about 30, at the time of his anointing with the Holy Spirit. This is the point at which the Spirit of God rests upon, and continues with, Jesus.

    As pointed out on a number of occasions, a mediator is 'not a mediator of one'. This means Jesus cannot be 100% man and a mediator. Nor can he be 100% God and a mediator. To be a mediator Jesus Christ must be BOTH 100% human and 100% God. I would not call Jesus Christ my God if he were not 100% God!
     
  9. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2014
    Messages:
    2,330
    Ratings:
    +300
    God the Father is Spirit, and remains invisible Spirit throughout the redemption of mankind. His chosen strength and righteousness on earth is his Son, a mediator who is both man and God. When Jesus is raised from the dead, the mortal is turned to immortal and you no longer have the earthly vessel needed whilst on earth. But exalted to heaven is the soul of Jesus, now united with the Holy Spirit, such is the obedience of his soul.

    I cannot understand how you can call Jesus Christ 'Lord', when in reality you do not treat him as Lord! To all Unitarians, Jesus Christ is 100% man but not 100% God. This makes him, to my understanding, less than God, and not worthy to be served.

    If Jesus is just a man then he is not good [Matthew 19:17].

    If Jesus is just a man then he is not worthy of worship and service [Matthew 4:10]. Yet, we are told to serve him [James 1:1].

    By serving Jesus Christ we honour the Father, who exalted him. The Father would not exalt or glorify anyone who was not holy. This means that the Son has become the Holy One of Israel. Only God can be described as 'the Holy One of Israel'.
     
  10. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2009
    Messages:
    13,658
    Ratings:
    +7,548
    Religion:
    Christian JW
    I have used scripture to back up all my beliefs, but I do not see the same adherence to scripture on your part.
    I am disappointed about that. Without scripture, there can be no beliefs.

    The Bible does not say how God brought about the conception of his son, only to say that the pregnancy was not the result of normal reproductive process. But it does say that Jesus' human life was a product of God’s holy spirit ‘overshadowing” this chosen woman, (Luke 1:28-35) promised in marriage to a noble and humble man.

    Matthew 1:18-25...
    “But this is how the birth of Jesus Christ took place. During the time his mother Mary was promised in marriage to Joseph, she was found to be pregnant by holy spirit before they were united. 19 However, because her husband Joseph was righteous and did not want to make her a public spectacle, he intended to divorce her secretly. 20 But after he had thought these things over, look! Jehovah’s angel appeared to him in a dream, saying: “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take your wife Mary home, for what has been conceived in her is by holy spirit. 21 She will give birth to a son, and you are to name him Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins.” 22 All of this actually came about to fulfill what was spoken by Jehovah through his prophet, saying: 23 “Look! The virgin will become pregnant and will give birth to a son, and they will name him Im·manʹu·el,” which means, when translated, “With Us Is God.”

    24 Then Joseph woke up from his sleep and did as the angel of Jehovah had directed him, and he took his wife home. 25 But he did not have sexual relations with her until she gave birth to a son, and he named him Jesus”.


    The question is....why? Why did God bring his son into the world under these circumstances in the first place? Was there any human DNA in Jesus that was related to Adam? Could there have been? Your answer will allow me to determine your understanding of redemption. What was the ransom? (Psalm 49:7; Ephesians 1:7; Matthew 20:28) Your username is a bit meaningless if you can't define what redemption is.

    So, from your own viewpoint, (not shared by other trinitarians) Jesus was not God for the majority of his earthly life, only at his baptism? He was only God for three and a half years on earth.....so what was he before his baptism.....and after his death and resurrection?
     
  11. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2009
    Messages:
    13,658
    Ratings:
    +7,548
    Religion:
    Christian JW
    This may be your conclusion but there is nothing scriptural about it apart from your inserting suggestions into that conclusion to service your own beliefs.

    There is not a single scripture offered as a clear statement to support your assertion that “To be a mediator Jesus Christ must be BOTH 100% human and 100% God.”

    Unless you can provide one statement from either Jesus or his Father that they share equality or that each sees the other as God, You don’t have a leg to stand on.
    I’m not even sure you understand Jesus’ role as Mediator.
    To be a Mediator, Jesus was the ‘go-between’ to allow access to God via this Mediator, whilst humans were still in their sinful state. It was a very loving provision.

    If sinful humans cannot access God unless they have that avenue of communication, how can Jesus be God? Your beliefs are both illogical and unscriptural.
    If Jesus was God, then logically, we would need a Mediator between us and him. Sin is the barrier that Jesus bridges between us and the Father. Can you see the impediment?

    All of the scripture that I have provided to support my own beliefs are solid, direct statements from the Bible. I have yet to see anything but misinterpretations from you in support of your beliefs. And the fact that you do not address many of my questions.

    I see here where there is a misunderstanding even about God and the operation of God’s spirit. Jehovah IS a spirit, but HE is not “the Holy Spirit”......the spirit that emanates from God is his immense power. It is apportioned according to need. It is something he provides, not something that identifies him personally. His spirit is not a person....it is how uses his power to accomplish his will.

    By misunderstanding the roles of Father, son and holy spirit we have a recipe for a blasphemy that permeates all of Christendom, divided on many other things, but accepting of this one unscriptural notion almost universally. (albeit in different interpretations) The idea that Father, son and holy spirit were three persons in one “godhead” did not even exist when Jesus walked the earth, nor was it taught by the apostles. It is an ungodly product of the “weeds” ‘sown by the devil’ that Jesus warned about. (Matthew 13:24-30; 36-42) No wonder that Jesus said “few” are on the road to life. (Matthew 7:13-14)

    Again, this is not scriptural.
    Jesus was 100% mortal human or else he could not have died.

    His resurrection was “in the spirit” which was necessary to facilitate his return to heaven. Jesus the man was a soul, and when he died the soul that was God’s son on earth ceased to exist (offered in sacrifice as the redemption price for the human race) and his Father resurrected the spirit that Jesus was before his human birth. He was sent from heaven, and returned there.

    1 Corinthians 15:42-50....
    So it is with the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised up in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor; it is raised up in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised up in power. 44 It is sown a physical body; it is raised up a spiritual body. If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual one. 45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living person.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 However, what is spiritual is not first. What is physical is first, and afterward what is spiritual. 47 The first man is from the earth and made of dust; the second man is from heaven. 48 Like the one made of dust, so too are those made of dust; and like the heavenly one, so too are those who are heavenly. 49 And just as we have borne the image of the one made of dust, we will bear also the image of the heavenly one.

    50 But I tell you this, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s Kingdom, nor does corruption inherit incorruption.”


    What do you read there? What sort of body is needed to live in heaven (the spirit realm)?

    Jesus lived and died just like these ones who are chosen to rule with him in his kingdom. They were mortals who died as “souls” (living, breathing creatures by the Bible’s definition) and who are resurrected as spirit beings because “flesh and blood” cannot exist in the spirit realm.

    Because these “chosen ones” are now immortal, they have proven under test that they remained “faithful unto death” to receive “the crown of life”. But because these ones are “resurrected first” (only when Christ returned in his parousia) and because they are “kings and priests” (Revelation 20:6) over whom will they rule and for whom do they act as priests?
     
  12. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2009
    Messages:
    13,658
    Ratings:
    +7,548
    Religion:
    Christian JW
    OK, so you are a Unitarian....thanks for the identification.

    What is your understanding of the designation “Lord”? It is a title, not exclusive to either God or his son, and can apply to humans as well. It simply means the equivalent of respectful address....like “Sir” or “Master”. One can serve a ‘Lord and Master’ without imputing deity to him. Being obedient to one’s Master and serving his interests was expected of a servant. Jesus was a servant of his God and so are we. (1 Corinthians 11:3)

    Acts 3:3...
    “The God of Abraham and of Isaac and of Jacob, the God of our forefathers, has glorified his Servant, Jesus...”.

    Let’s examine those verses....
    Matthew 19:17
    “He said to him: “Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. If, though, you want to enter into life, observe the commandments continually.”

    What was Jesus saying here? The verse before that says....”16 Now look! someone came up to him and said: “Teacher, what good must I do to gain everlasting life?
    Jesus’ response to his question was really getting the man to see what “good” he could do to serve God? Jesus said to simply obey God’s commandments continually, i.e. every day of his life, because only then could a sinful human do “good” in the eyes of God.
    If there is “one who is good” (in the absolute sense of the word) then Jesus was saying that it wasn’t him. He gave that designation only to his Father.

    Matthew 4:10...
    “Then Jesus said to him: “Go away, Satan! For it is written: ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.’”

    Who is Jesus saying we must worship? He is quoting Deuteronomy 10:20 where the Tetragrammaton is clearly in the text. Jehovah “alone” is to be worshipped. Jesus is never said to be Jehovah.

    James 1:1...
    “James, a slave of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ.
    Like James, we serve God by following the teachings of our Lord and Master. We are servants of both because Jesus was sent as his Father’s representative. Obeying Christ means obeying his Father,as you said.

    Do you see the justifications you must use to force scripture to fit your beliefs? We do honour the Father by obeying his representative on earth. All that Jesus taught, he said was from his Father, not himself. The son was holy, of divine origin.....but he wasn’t God.

    John 17:16-17
    “Jesus, in turn, answered them and said: “What I teach is not mine, but belongs to him who sent me. 17 If anyone desires to do His will, he will know whether the teaching is from God or I speak of my own originality.”
     
  13. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2014
    Messages:
    2,330
    Ratings:
    +300
    To my understanding, Jesus was Christ, and the mediator between God and men on earth, for about three and a half years. He was not a 'go-between'; because a 'go-between' does not represent either one side or the other. Jesus Christ occupies BOTH sides. He was fully man and fully God.

    'Go-between' = A - C - B
    Mediator = A - A+B - B

    What is a 'representative' if not a 'go-between'? How can Jesus 'represent' the SPIRIT of TRUTH without having the Spirit of Truth within him? IMO, Jesus Christ is not a 'representative', but the mediating SON of God, the Word of God dwelling in the midst of men.

    If you believe that Jesus Christ was able to fully declare the Word of God, then he must have had the Spirit of God dwelling within him.

    John 14:10. 'Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me?'

    Ephesians 4:6. 'One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.'

    Romans 8:9. 'But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.'


    The Spirit of the Father was in Jesus. The Spirit of Christ is in us, if we belong to him.

    The Father is God, but the Father dwelt in Jesus as the SON.

    And, as yet, we haven't even come to the role of the Holy Spirit!
     
    #133 Redemptionsong, Nov 17, 2020
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2020
  14. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2009
    Messages:
    13,658
    Ratings:
    +7,548
    Religion:
    Christian JW
    OK lets get to the bottom of this.
    The word translated "mediator" in Greek is "mesitēs" which means ...

    1. "one who intervenes between two, either in order to make or restore peace and friendship, or form a compact, or for ratifying a covenant

    2. a medium of communication, arbitrator" (Strongs Concordance)
    These meanings apply to Jesus as mediator between God and man. He is therefor not God if he is facilitating or restoring peace between these two parties. He is the medium for communication....hence our prayers are addressed to "Our Father in Heaven" in the name of Jesus Christ.

    Jesus is the "mediator" of the "new covenant".....
    Hebrews 9:15...
    "For this reason He is the mediator G3316 of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance."

    You must translate according to the meaning of this word in Greek, not English. You are forcing scripture to say what you want it to say by misinterpreting and misapplying the verses....and that is a recipe for misunderstanding.

    I'll deal with the rest later as I am pressed for time right now.....
     
  15. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2014
    Messages:
    2,330
    Ratings:
    +300
    A mediator might ordinarily 'intervene between two' because most mediators are 100% human. A human intervening between two other humans clearly represents both sides.

    A human (B) mediator = B - B - B (where the mediator B is also human)

    If God (A) is involved, then there must be a different type of mediator.
    Hence, A - C - B (where C is both A +B, both 100% God and 100% man)

    This is confirmed by the scriptures.
    1 Timothy 2:5. 'For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;'

    Galatians 3:19,20. 'Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
    Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.'

    What are these scriptures telling us? We know that there is one God, who is Spirit, and holy. We know that Jesus was born a man of flesh and blood. So, we have SPIRIT (God) and we have FLESH + BLOOD (man). Unless the man has been given the Holy Spirit, he is a man walking under law. Jesus was given the Holy Spirit at his anointing or baptism, and therefore he is OF God, whilst also being flesh and blood.

    A mediator is 'not a mediator of one'; not a mediator of one side only. God is one, and even when dwelling upon Jesus, on earth, God remains one (Father in Jesus, as the Son).
     
    #135 Redemptionsong, Nov 18, 2020
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2020
  16. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2014
    Messages:
    2,330
    Ratings:
    +300
    Jesus Christ is looked upon in scripture as a mediator in two ways. I think of one of them as 'vertical', between God and men, and the other as 'horizontal', between the old covenant and the new covenant.

    In Galatians 3:19 we have a reference to the horizontal mediator. Jesus, the seed, is seen to mediate between the two covenants. How was this done? Well, if we look at the wording we see that 'the promise' came to 'the seed'. What is the promise? According to 1 John 2:25, the promise is eternal life.

    There is only one Spirit that can give eternal life, and that Spirit is God. The question therefore arises; Is Jesus Christ able to give eternal life?

    Answer on a postcard, please!
     
  17. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2014
    Messages:
    2,330
    Ratings:
    +300
    This statement highlights the inconsistency of your position.

    Your Lord and Master is Jehovah, the one God in heaven. If, as you have always argued, Jesus Christ is not God, then He cannot be your Lord and Master.

    Jesus of Nazareth was called to fulfil a mission for God. God anointed Jesus of Nazareth [Acts 10:38] to be his suffering servant on earth. If you do not believe that God was united with Jesus during his ministry, then God has never come to dwell amongst men on earth. If Jesus Christ did not ascend to be with his Father, as God, then he cannot send the Holy Spirit.

    If Christ baptises with the Holy Spirit, how can you claim to obey Christ if you have not been born again of His Spirit? It's not just the teachings of Jesus Christ that we're to follow, it's His Spirit we're to follow. If you do not follow the Holy Spirit you are outside the body of Christ, still living under the law.
     
  18. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2009
    Messages:
    13,658
    Ratings:
    +7,548
    Religion:
    Christian JW
    That is so twisted! You are relying on a dictionary definition of a mediator, rather that the scriptural definition given to you from Strongs Concordance. What does the Greek word mean? It’s the only legitimate definition.
    This word means ‘someone who facilitates communication between two parties with a view to reconciliation’.
    Since it is God who appointed Jesus to this role, you definition is nonsense.

    How can Jesus be a “mediator between God and man” if he is God? That is totally illogical, not to mention unscriptural.

    God is one.....Jesus is another. He is the third party.....the one facilitating communication between two estranged parties. How can you not see this? The trinitarian blinkers blind people to a very plain and obvious truth....Jesus is not God and never was. He never had to be.

    Are you trying to shift the goalposts....?

    God is a spirit, but he is vastly superior to any spirit being that he created.......including his son.

    Of Jesus, Paul said in Colossians 1:15...
    “He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation”...

    What is an “image”? It is the original or a representation of the original? If Jesus is God’s “firstborn” “only begotten” son, how can he be God?

    Philippians 2:5-6...
    “Keep this mental attitude in you that was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although he was existing in God’s form, gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God.”

    What does “existing in God’s form” mean? What “form” does God have? He is a spirit and all of the creatures who inhabit the spirit realm are spirits. They were created to inhabit the spirit realm and humans were created to inhabit the material realm. There was never an intention on God’s part to take any humans to heaven originally. Why would he?

    Of Jesus again Paul says in Hebrews 1:3...
    3 He is the reflection of God’s glory and the exact representation of his very being, and he sustains all things by the word of his power. And after he had made a purification for our sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high.”

    What is a “reflection”? If you see your reflection in a mirror, is that reflection “you”? What is a “representation”? If Jesus was God’s representative, he was not God but representing him on earth. He said that nothing he taught was his, but came from his Father.

    After his mission was complete Jesus returned to his Father’s side...at his right hand, indicating a position of second in command. There is not a single scripture that places the holy spirit at God’s left hand.

    What is ambiguous about those scriptures?

    There is only one God, who shares his godship with no one. (Deuteronomy 6:4)...not even his firstborn son.

    Jesus worships his God, even in heaven.
    “The one who conquers—I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he will by no means go out from it anymore, and I will write upon him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the New Jerusalem that descends out of heaven from my God, and my own new name.” (Revelation 3:12)
    How can Jesus acknowledge his Father as his God in heaven?
    Four times in this one verse Jesus acknowledges his Father as his God.

    Please explain.....
     
  19. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2009
    Messages:
    13,658
    Ratings:
    +7,548
    Religion:
    Christian JW
    LOL... Did you make that up? “Horizontal mediator”? :D

    Yes. He is the one “through” whom eternal life is granted to anyone.
    God sent his son to provide a ransom which was the price required under law to release a captive. Without his willing cooperation, the human race would have been in deep trouble.

    You are so cut and dried here. If Jesus is our appointed King then he is our Lord and Master. Jehovah is his God and ours, remember..."OUR Father who art in heaven"?
    We can have a Father AND a Lord and Master. Who said we can't?

    Again with the cut and dried conclusions....that is nonsense.
    Being united with his Father is the same unity he expressed with his disciples...
    John 17:20-22...
    "I make request, not concerning these only, but also concerning those putting faith in me through their word, 21 so that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you, that they also may be in union with us, so that the world may believe that you sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you have given me, in order that they may be one just as we are one."

    Are the disciples God too?

    Oh dear, you don't listen, do you? Your ears are blocked to anything that threatens your precious trinity.....

    Who baptized Jesus with holy spirit? Who gave holy spirit to his apostles when Jesus was on earth so that they could perform miracles in Jesus' name? It had to be God.
    Who sent the holy spirit to Jesus' disciples?

    John 14:26...
    "But the helper, the holy spirit, which the Father will send in my name, that one will teach you all things and bring back to your minds all the things I told you."

    So.....what does being baptized into Christ actually mean? I don't think being "born again" is what you think it is.....this "new birth" happens when the anointed ones die, and are raised as spirit "sons of God'...like Jesus, they are born of flesh but raised as immortal spirits....it is the only way a human can be "a son of God" and a "brother of Christ".

    2 Cor 5:1-5....
    "For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, should be torn down, we are to have a building from God, a house not made with hands, everlasting in the heavens. 2 For in this house we do indeed groan, earnestly desiring to put on the one for us from heaven, 3 so that when we do put it on, we will not be found naked. 4 In fact, we who are in this tent groan, being weighed down, because we do not want to put this one off, but we want to put the other on, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. 5 Now the one who prepared us for this very thing is God, who gave us the spirit as a token of what is to come."

    The apostles likened their fleshly body to a house, and that if the house is destroyed (by death) God will give them a new "house"...one that can live in the spirit realm. The "token" God gave them was his spirit, implanting in them a strong desire to go to heaven...not that they wanted to die and put off the body of flesh, but that they wanted to take up the body of spirit and be with their Lord in heaven. That is when they are "born again".

    Tell me what you think being "born again" means?
     
  20. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2014
    Messages:
    2,330
    Ratings:
    +300
    At this very moment in time, Jesus Christ reigns in heaven, I believe. The book of Revelation helps us to understand more about His present position and status.

    The book begins with the words, 'The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him [Jesus Christ], to shew unto his servants things which must come to pass; and he [Jesus Christ] sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:'

    So things appear straight forward. According to scripture, Jesus Christ is separate from God. Jesus Christ is given a revelation by God to pass to an angel, and on to John.

    Revelation 3:11,12. 'Behold, I [Jesus Christ] come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
    Him that overcometh will I
    [Jesus Christ] make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I [Jesus Christ] will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I [Jesus Christ] will write upon him my new name.'

    Then we come to Revelation 3:20,21.'Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I [Jesus Christ] will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
    To him that overcometh will I [Jesus Christ] grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I [Jesus Christ] also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.'

    We know, therefore, where Jesus Christ is NOW. He is in his Father's throne.

    Revelation 5:6-10. 'And I beheld, and , lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
    And he
    [the Lamb] came and took the book out of the hand of him that sat upon the throne.
    And when he had taken the book, the four beats and the four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
    And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
    And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.'

    Then in Revelation 5:12-14 we hear more about the Lamb.
    Verse 13, 'And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.'

    These passages, whilst distinguishing God the Father from Jesus Christ, also place Jesus Christ, the Lamb, firmly in the midst of the throne of God. The Lamb is also worshipped.

    In Revelation 3:12, quoted above, it is Jesus Christ who decides who overcomes, and who will be a pillar in the temple of 'my God'. It is Jesus Christ who gathers the flock. It is Jesus Christ who judges.

    A Christian serves God in Christ, and dwells in the temple of 'my God', knowing that the will of the Father is accomplished through the Spirit of the Son.

     
    #140 Redemptionsong, Nov 19, 2020
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2020
Loading...