Heal me, O LORD

[Redemptionsong]

I believe all kind of healing, also physical, but most important is soul/spiritual healing. If soul is healed, also body will be.

I think there's a lot of truth in what you say.

When Adam and Eve sinned, death came in an order. The spirit first [the Holy Spirit departed], then the body and soul [to the grave].

The opposite seems to happen with faith in Christ. The Spirit comes, then the soul is refreshed and the body is swept and prepared to be resurrected as a new spiritual body after death.

 

[Deeje]

I counted 15 question marks in your post! I think it's only reasonable that I tackle two questions at a time. Which two questions would you like me to respond to first?!

I guess it would help if you just answered questions as they are asked instead of letting them accumulate.

Let me list the questions that I believe need a response, and you can answer them at your leisure....? One or two at a time. OK?

Some of my questions are grouped and connected so I’ll include then as a group....if that’s all right with you? The reason why I ask these questions is because they were important to me when I was in Christendom’s church system. I would just like to see how you answer them.

1) If the words “alive” and “dead” apply spiritually in the Bible, then why not “healing”?

2) Who is Jesus addressing in Matthew 7:21-23? And why is he utterly rejecting those who have even ‘performed powerful works in his name’? Whose power was being supplied in those instances?

3) What exactly is God’s kingdom? And how does it “come” so that God’s will is “done on earth as it is in heaven”?

4) How does one become a ruler in that Kingdom and over whom does it rule and with what objective?

5) In accord with your username, what are the mechanics behind the ‘redemption’ of mankind?
How does Jesus’ death “redeem” us?

Let's start with his group.......and please, take all the time you need. We can discuss the rest later....

 

[Deeje]

And as for your question to me.....

What does Jesus require of all his followers?

Jesus himself gave us all we need to know, and all the instructions on what we need to do....

When Jesus was asked what the greatest Commandment in the law was, he replied....
"‘You must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind.’ 38 This is the greatest and first commandment. 39 The second, like it, is this: ‘You must love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments the whole Law hangs, and the Prophets." (Matthew 22:37-40; Deuteronomy 6:5; Deuteronomy 10:12; Leviticus 19:18)

So 'love of God and neighbor' would be paramount. That love is expressed in our strict obedience to God's commands and the teachings of his son....all of them, not just the convenient things.

Jesus also instructed his audience to keep God's moral laws....concerning the sanctity of marriage, the seriousness of adultery and in respecting God's marriage arrangement, which was only between a man and a woman. (Matthew 19:4-6) This is the only marriage God recognizes.

A vital part of Jesus' work was teaching and making disciples, which he also assigned to his followers....
"Go, therefore, and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you. And look! I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.” (Matthew 28:19-20)

This is not a recommendation...it is a command. So Christ's disciples will be seen declaring Christ's message about the Kingdom in all the world right up until "the end" comes. (Matthew 24:14)

He also said to his disciples.....
"Into whatever city or village you enter, search out who in it is deserving, and stay there until you leave. 12 When you enter the house, greet the household. 13 If the house is deserving, let the peace you wish it come upon it; but if it is not deserving, let the peace from you return upon you. 14 Wherever anyone does not receive you or listen to your words, on going out of that house or that city, shake the dust off your feet. 15 Truly I say to you, it will be more endurable for the land of Sodʹom and Go·morʹrah on Judgment Day than for that city."

This means that the message is offered, but never forced. It means that people are judged worthy or unworthy by their response to the message, just as it was in Jesus' day. If the message is rejected, then the disciples were to "shake the dust off their feet" and move on to the next house. (Acts 20:20) The customary act of hospitality (washing the feet) was not offered.

Finally Jesus said...."I am giving you a new commandment, that you love one another; just as I have loved you, you also love one another. 35 By this all will know that you are my disciples—if you have love among yourselves.”

This 'new' commandment took love to another dimension.....Jesus loved his brothers so much that he was willing to die for them.....so we as his disciples must show that kind of love to our brothers as well. In the two world wars of last century, we saw "Christians" on both sides of the conflict killing their fellow "Christians" at the command of their governments.....but whose commands override those governments? No Christian can even enter the military for training to kill other humans, often using indiscriminate weapons, which take innocent lives. Christ said we must love even our enemies. (Matthew 5:43-44) You can't do that with any weapon or act of violence.

A genuine Christian will take a bullet for his brother, but he would never fire one. (1 John 4:20-21)

Any "Christian" who would support the bloodshed of his/her government is actually taking sides with God's adversary, who is in control of the whole world. (1 John 5:19)

How do you see these issues?

 

[Redemptionsong]

I guess it would help if you just answered questions as they are asked instead of letting them accumulate.

Let me list the questions that I believe need a response, and you can answer them at your leisure....? One or two at a time. OK?

Some of my questions are grouped and connected so I’ll include then as a group....if that’s all right with you? The reason why I ask these questions is because they were important to me when I was in Christendom’s church system. I would just like to see how you answer them.

1) If the words “alive” and “dead” apply spiritually in the Bible, then why not “healing”?

2) Who is Jesus addressing in Matthew 7:21-23? And why is he utterly rejecting those who have even ‘performed powerful works in his name’? Whose power was being supplied in those instances?

3) What exactly is God’s kingdom? And how does it “come” so that God’s will is “done on earth as it is in heaven”?

4) How does one become a ruler in that Kingdom and over whom does it rule and with what objective?

5) In accord with your username, what are the mechanics behind the ‘redemption’ of mankind?
How does Jesus’ death “redeem” us?

Let's start with his group.......and please, take all the time you need. We can discuss the rest later....

Thanks for your patience.

1) I believe that the terms 'alive' and 'dead' are applied both physically and spiritually, which leads me to the conclusion that there is a place for both physical and spiritual healing. In fact, the two are inextricably linked. But, I also recognise that we are mortal, and that the body must pass through decay and return to dust. This is why it's important to realise that not all aliments come under the heading of 'sickness and disease'. The Lord has given us bodies that heal naturally of many ailments. He has also provided us with a world full of plants and animals that can help with the healing process. I don't dismiss these things, but I do believe that there is, in addition to human medicine, healing through the Holy Spirit.

The difference between medical healing and Holy Spirit healing is, to me, much like the difference between law and grace. Under the law, we have man's righteousness, and under grace we have the Lord's righteousness. The law is good, but the Lord provides something even better!

[Deuteronomy 7:15; Matthew 4:23; James 5:14,15]

2) Matthew 7:21-23.
I believe that Jesus is speaking about those who claim to follow Christ but who have used the power of the Holy Spirit for their own personal glorification, and not the glorification of God. The Holy Spirit is a gift for the whole Church, to be used in extending the kingdom of God on earth.

1 Corinthians 12:27-31 explains the various ministries, and the final verse says, 'yet shew I unto you a more excellent way'. In chapter 13, Paul goes on to talk about the way of love [charity], and the importance of love above all things.
What is it that abides now? Faith, hope and charity. Which is the greatest? Charity.

Where does it say that faith and hope are no longer abiding? It doesn't. It simply places faith and hope on a lower level than charity. This is consistent with the teaching that the gift of the Holy Spirit is only for the individual as part of the Church, or body of Christ. That's why in 1 Corinthians 12:12-27 Paul goes to great lengths to explain the importance of the whole body, and that the individual parts, however necessary, cannot function independently of the whole body. Love should bind the body together.

3) What is God's Kingdom?
Jesus teaches that the Kingdom of God comes as one repents and has faith in the King. Jesus Christ is the King. To have faith means to do His will. Jesus Christ supplies the Holy Spirit so that the individual, and the body as a whole, is able to do his work.

Luke 16:16. 'The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.'

Since Jesus was anointed as heir to the throne at his baptism, it is clear that his reign did not begin until his ascension to the throne in heaven [Daniel 7:14,15]. This tells us that his Messianic reign takes place in two stages. At present it is heavenly and spiritual; but at his return it becomes earthly and territorial. This means his kingdom is, at present, an invisible kingdom. At his coming, the kingdom becomes visible.

There are a number of messianic parallels here between the life of David and that of our Lord.

4) The question of who rules in the Kingdom of God seems to be a big question amongst JWs!!

When Jesus overheard his disciples arguing about their status in the coming kingdom he said; 'Verily, I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. Whoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven. And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me. But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.' [Matthew 18:3-6]

5) What do I understand by the term 'redemption'?
It can mean a) Buying again something that has been sold, by paying back the price to him that bought it [Leviticus 25:25]
b) Delivering out of bondage, without ransom, prisoners of the enemy. [Deuteronomy 7:5]
AND (as I like to think of it) c) Delivering sinners from Satan, from sin, from death, and eternal separation, by the purchase of Christ's blood, and the power of his grace: This is Christ both the Ransomer and the ransom. [Luke 1:68; 1 Timothy 2:6; Titus 2:14]

 

[Redemptionsong]

And as for your question to me.....


Jesus himself gave us all we need to know, and all the instructions on what we need to do....

When Jesus was asked what the greatest Commandment in the law was, he replied....
"‘You must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind.’ 38 This is the greatest and first commandment. 39 The second, like it, is this: ‘You must love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments the whole Law hangs, and the Prophets." (Matthew 22:37-40; Deuteronomy 6:5; Deuteronomy 10:12; Leviticus 19:18)

So 'love of God and neighbor' would be paramount. That love is expressed in our strict obedience to God's commands and the teachings of his son....all of them, not just the convenient things.

Jesus also instructed his audience to keep God's moral laws....concerning the sanctity of marriage, the seriousness of adultery and in respecting God's marriage arrangement, which was only between a man and a woman. (Matthew 19:4-6) This is the only marriage God recognizes.

A vital part of Jesus' work was teaching and making disciples, which he also assigned to his followers....
"Go, therefore, and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you. And look! I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.” (Matthew 28:19-20)

This is not a recommendation...it is a command. So Christ's disciples will be seen declaring Christ's message about the Kingdom in all the world right up until "the end" comes. (Matthew 24:14)

He also said to his disciples.....
"Into whatever city or village you enter, search out who in it is deserving, and stay there until you leave. 12 When you enter the house, greet the household. 13 If the house is deserving, let the peace you wish it come upon it; but if it is not deserving, let the peace from you return upon you. 14 Wherever anyone does not receive you or listen to your words, on going out of that house or that city, shake the dust off your feet. 15 Truly I say to you, it will be more endurable for the land of Sodʹom and Go·morʹrah on Judgment Day than for that city."

This means that the message is offered, but never forced. It means that people are judged worthy or unworthy by their response to the message, just as it was in Jesus' day. If the message is rejected, then the disciples were to "shake the dust off their feet" and move on to the next house. (Acts 20:20) The customary act of hospitality (washing the feet) was not offered.

Finally Jesus said...."I am giving you a new commandment, that you love one another; just as I have loved you, you also love one another. 35 By this all will know that you are my disciples—if you have love among yourselves.”

This 'new' commandment took love to another dimension.....Jesus loved his brothers so much that he was willing to die for them.....so we as his disciples must show that kind of love to our brothers as well. In the two world wars of last century, we saw "Christians" on both sides of the conflict killing their fellow "Christians" at the command of their governments.....but whose commands override those governments? No Christian can even enter the military for training to kill other humans, often using indiscriminate weapons, which take innocent lives. Christ said we must love even our enemies. (Matthew 5:43-44) You can't do that with any weapon or act of violence.

A genuine Christian will take a bullet for his brother, but he would never fire one. (1 John 4:20-21)

Any "Christian" who would support the bloodshed of his/her government is actually taking sides with God's adversary, who is in control of the whole world. (1 John 5:19)

How do you see these issues?

I agree with all the quotations!

What I immediately notice is that you have not mentioned John 3:3: 'Verily ,verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God'.

This statement, from the lips of Jesus, is very blunt and to the point. What do you think it means?

 

[Deeje]

Thanks for your patience.

No problem, we all have lives outside of RF. or at least I hope we do....

Thank you for taking the time to reply. I am sorry to fire so many questions but IMO that is how we learn and have opportunity to evaluate things. I'll break this up.....

1) I believe that the terms 'alive' and 'dead' are applied both physically and spiritually, which leads me to the conclusion that there is a place for both physical and spiritual healing. In fact, the two are inextricably linked.

There is no doubt that all apply both physically and spiritually.....but what do the scriptures tell us about these things?

In the Bible, it is clear that satan possesses powers that could be used to rival some of the actions that God’s spirit accomplished. The first I can remember was when Moses and Aaron demonstrated God’s power before Pharaoh, and his magic-practicing priests were able to reproduce the action with “magic”.
(Exodus 7:8-12) Whose power was at work for the magicians in that case?

When we read about the operation of God’s spirit in the first century, we can see that today there are some things that are repeated....healing and speaking in tongues for example. But the clincher for me is that "raising the dead" was also to be seen as a result of God’s spirit...we saw resurrections in the first century, but where are those ‘resurrections’ today?
Satan can mimic the small things......but he cannot raise the dead. Only God can give life and return it.

As seen in the account about Job, satan can cause illness and if necessary, he can remove it to fake a miracle for those who have been led to believe that these miracles are gifts from God. He mimics what God does to take people into his web of deception.

I believe that Paul’s words in 1 Corinthians13: 8-11 tell us why some might accept them as such....

“But if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away with; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away with. 9 For we have partial knowledge and we prophesy partially, 10 but when what is complete comes, what is partial will be done away with. 11 When I was a child, I used to speak as a child, to think as a child, to reason as a child; but now that I have become a man, I have done away with the traits of a child.”

If satan can use his own power to fake ‘miracles’ then it stands to reason that once Christianity was well established, (after the apostolic period had accomplished the widespread acceptance of Jesus as the Christ) the gifts would cease. All the gifts were passed on by the apostles and I believe that they when the apostles died, the gifts died with them.
That makes sense to me because it would mean that Christ’s true disciples (who would be caught up in the foretold apostasy to come) could not be fooled by 'magic'. So many today are, because satan sells himself as “an angel of light”.

2 Corinthians 11:13-15....
“13 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder, for Satan himself keeps disguising himself as an angel of light. 15 It is therefore nothing extraordinary if his ministers also keep disguising themselves as ministers of righteousness. But their end will be according to their works.”

What do we see in those “works”? Many of the healing miracles seen today, either don’t work or are temporary. What does that do to people’s faith, especially when a failure is often said to be the fault of the receiver....lacking faith etc. The truth is, the success or failure was squarely on the shoulders of the healer. None of the miracles performed in the first century were failures. God's spirit cannot fail. Some did not even know who Jesus was. It is supposedly the same holy spirit operating today.....but I don’t see it. I see a poor imitation.

When people pray in all sincerity for a miracle regarding a sick relative or friend.....and no miracle occurs, is it because God did not deem that person as worthy of a healing? Why do these prayers so often go unanswered.....is God really that capricious? What are people to think?

 

[Deeje]

But, I also recognise that we are mortal, and that the body must pass through decay and return to dust. This is why it's important to realise that not all aliments come under the heading of 'sickness and disease'. The Lord has given us bodies that heal naturally of many ailments.

If you go back to Eden, what were the prospects set before the first humans? Was their mortality to end in a natural death, like the animals? Or were humans given something more? What does being "made in God's image" really mean?

Wasn’t disobedience the only cause of death? So if humans had never disobeyed, would they have ever died? What is inferred by God’s response to their stealing the forbidden fruit? (Genesis 3:22-24) What was the purpose of the “tree of life”?...and why did God deny access to it when he evicted them from the garden?

Solomon lamented that fact that we humans have no superiority over the animals in death. (Ecclesiastes 3:19-20)

Question upon question demand answers....do you have them?

He has also provided us with a world full of plants and animals that can help with the healing process. I don't dismiss these things, but I do believe that there is, in addition to human medicine, healing through the Holy Spirit.

I agree here.....natural is the way to go. For me the orthodox medical system has basically become an inept cash cow. There are rarely any 'cures'...only expensive 'treatments' that merely address symptoms in most cases and need to be taken for the rest of one's life. $$$$
Its a shame that there are charlatans in alternative medicine too...but hey...who is running this show? (1 John 5:19) The real, permanent healing will be seen when God's Kingdom rules this earth. (Revelation 21:2-4)

2) Matthew 7:21-23.
I believe that Jesus is speaking about those who claim to follow Christ but who have used the power of the Holy Spirit for their own personal glorification, and not the glorification of God. The Holy Spirit is a gift for the whole Church, to be used in extending the kingdom of God on earth.

Hang on....what did Jesus say about these ones? "I never knew you"....."get away from me, you workers of lawlessness"......so would God gift the holy spirit to those who were never recognized as Christ's disciples and were actually working against God's laws in the first place? These ones imagine that they are "Christians" in good standing because of what they are doing (expelling demons and powerful works etc) but according to Jesus, they were not "doing the will of the father". So what is "the will of the Father"?

1 Corinthians 12:27-31 explains the various ministries, and the final verse says, 'yet shew I unto you a more excellent way'. In chapter 13, Paul goes on to talk about the way of love [charity], and the importance of love above all things.
What is it that abides now? Faith, hope and charity. Which is the greatest? Charity

The word you refer to as "charity" is "agapē" which is one of the four Greek words for "love". When you refer to it as "charity" you lose the true meaning for most people today, IMO.
"Agapē" is love based on principle which does not necessarily involve our emotions, but is the kind of love that can transcend our feelings and even be offered to an enemy.
"Faith, hope and love" are the three identifying marks of genuine Christianity.....but 'Love" is the most important....especially within our brotherhood. (John 13:34-35) This kind of love can love even the unlovable.

This is consistent with the teaching that the gift of the Holy Spirit is only for the individual as part of the Church, or body of Christ. That's why in 1 Corinthians 12:12-27 Paul goes to great lengths to explain the importance of the whole body, and that the individual parts, however necessary, cannot function independently of the whole body. Love should bind the body together.

Yes indeed, and the brotherhood should demonstrate that unity and love because it is bound together by the same spirit......but is this what we see in Christendom? Are they all parts of the same body if there is no unity of belief or practice? (1 Corinthians 1:10) All we see is divisions, even within the same denominations. Those who do not identify as denominational are merely saying that they tolerate each others differences....that is not the unity Paul spoke of.

 

[Deeje]

3) What is God's Kingdom?
Jesus teaches that the Kingdom of God comes as one repents and has faith in the King. Jesus Christ is the King. To have faith means to do His will. Jesus Christ supplies the Holy Spirit so that the individual, and the body as a whole, is able to do his work.

Luke 16:16. 'The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.'

Yes, so up until John's ministry, which was "preparing the way" for the coming ministry of Jesus Christ, the law and the prophets applied, but now the Kingdom of God was to have a King clearly identified in scripture but rejected as false by his own people. When would this King begin his reign? First it began in the acceptance of Jesus as Messiah and the choosing of those who would reign with him in heaven. King David foretold that his "Lord" would sit at God's right hand until his enemies were placed as a stool for his feet....apparently his return to heaven involved a waiting period. (Psalm 110:1-2)

But the kingdom's rule will end when Jesus has reversed all the fallout from Adam's disobedience. Then he hands the Kingdom back to his Father.....the rightful Sovereign of the Universe, whose position was challenged by satan in the first place.

1 Corinthians 15:20-25...
"But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead also comes through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ, the firstfruits; afterward, at His coming, those who belong to Christ. Then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to God the Father, when He abolishes all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign until He puts all His enemies under His feet."

Since Jesus was anointed as heir to the throne at his baptism, it is clear that his reign did not begin until his ascension to the throne in heaven [Daniel 7:14,15]. This tells us that his Messianic reign takes place in two stages. At present it is heavenly and spiritual; but at his return it becomes earthly and territorial. This means his kingdom is, at present, an invisible kingdom. At his coming, the kingdom becomes visible.

I agree with this to a point....

After his ascension to heaven, Jesus poured out the holy spirit at Pentecost and anointed the first of his "joint-heirs" and gave them an inordinate desire to go to heaven to be with their Lord. He said that he was "going to prepare a place" in heaven for them, and as things became clearer, Paul told them when to expect this transfer to heaven to begin. (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17) Christ was going to return and take them "home"......has he returned yet? If so when and how would his disciples on earth know when his return was imminent? (Matthew 24:43-44)

4) The question of who rules in the Kingdom of God seems to be a big question amongst JWs!!

Its the only thing that clarifies what "the first resurrection" is....and who qualifies for it. (Revelation 20:6; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16) It also identifies "the other sheep" who are the "great crowd" of Revelation 7:9-10; 13-14.....survivors of the great tribulation. (Matthew 24:21)

If those with "the heavenly calling" are to "rise first", then who is to be resurrected after that?.....who is raised by Jesus in John 5:28-29? Where are these ones when he calls to them? Who is Revelation 21:2-4 speaking about?

 

[Deeje]

When Jesus overheard his disciples arguing about their status in the coming kingdom he said; 'Verily, I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. Whoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven. And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me. But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.' [Matthew 18:3-6]

I'm sorry but I do not speak archaic English and neither do any other people I know, so that verse in modern language reads...
" and said, “Truly I say to you, unless you change and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven. 4 So whoever will humble himself like this child, he is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. 5 And whoever receives one such child in My name, receives Me; 6 but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to sin, it is better for him that a heavy millstone be hung around his neck, and that he be drowned in the depths of the sea." (NASB)

What are the qualities of young children that Jesus was inferring here? Humility doesn't put 'self' first, but is meek and teachable, eager to learn, with not much in the way of pre-conceived ideas to get in the way.

Verse 6 is interesting....."whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to sin, it is better for him that a heavy millstone be hung around his neck, and that he be drowned in the depths of the sea."
Those who causes "these little ones" (those newly converted, or those who do not yet have a solid grounding in the scriptures) to sin, will have a heavy penalty imposed on them. How could these new ones be led to sin? By having untruthful doctrines fed to them and being told lies as if they were truth.
Jesus said to the Pharisees of his day...

Matthew 23:13-15...
“But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you shut the kingdom of heaven in front of people; for you do not enter it yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.
15 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you travel around on sea and land to make one proselyte; and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell [gehenna] as yourselves."

If Jesus and his apostles warned about a coming apostasy, (the very same thing that happened in Judaism) then we would see the same scenario even today. (1 Timothy 4:1-3; 1 Timothy 6:3-5; 2 Thessalonians 2:3, 9-12; 2 Peter 2:1-2)
If people are fed false ideas about the nature of God and his Christ.....about their future destiny....about the condition of the dead.....who goes to heaven and what they will do there....and about there being two resurrections, then how are they not going to lead these ones down a wrong path. We know that there are only two roads and one of them leads to everlasting death. The road leading to life is "cramped and narrow"....(Matthew 7:13-14) So how cramped and narrow is it? If Jesus can say to the "many" "I never knew you"....that means that the "few" on the right road are the only ones "doing the will of the Father".

I don't think Jesus is as all forgiving as many make him out to be. He said that he hates hypocrites who teach falsehoods. He castigated those who misrepresented his Father to the people.

How many false idea do you think are floating about out there in Christendom? They can't all be right....but they could all be wrong.

Do you know what "Babylon the great" is?....and why God warned his "people" to "get out of her". (Revelation 18:4-5) Do you know how God's people got to be IN Babylon the great to start with?

 

[Deeje]

I agree with all the quotations!

What I immediately notice is that you have not mentioned John 3:3: 'Verily ,verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God'.

This statement, from the lips of Jesus, is very blunt and to the point. What do you think it means?

What does it mean to be born again? And who needs this rebirth?

To us, the scripture says that one "must be born of water and spirit"....so this is the water of baptism and the spirit of anointing, giving the chosen ones evidence of their selection for kingdom rule. These will experience the same death and resurrection as Jesus did. It will be a new birth from mortal flesh to life as a spirit being in heaven.

 

[Redemptionsong]

No problem, we all have lives outside of RF. or at least I hope we do....

Thank you for taking the time to reply. I am sorry to fire so many questions but IMO that is how we learn and have opportunity to evaluate things. I'll break this up.....


There is no doubt that all apply both physically and spiritually.....but what do the scriptures tell us about these things?

In the Bible, it is clear that satan possesses powers that could be used to rival some of the actions that God’s spirit accomplished. The first I can remember was when Moses and Aaron demonstrated God’s power before Pharaoh, and his magic-practicing priests were able to reproduce the action with “magic”.
(Exodus 7:8-12) Whose power was at work for the magicians in that case?

When we read about the operation of God’s spirit in the first century, we can see that today there are some things that are repeated....healing and speaking in tongues for example. But the clincher for me is that "raising the dead" was also to be seen as a result of God’s spirit...we saw resurrections in the first century, but where are those ‘resurrections’ today?
Satan can mimic the small things......but he cannot raise the dead. Only God can give life and return it.

As seen in the account about Job, satan can cause illness and if necessary, he can remove it to fake a miracle for those who have been led to believe that these miracles are gifts from God. He mimics what God does to take people into his web of deception.

I believe that Paul’s words in 1 Corinthians13: 8-11 tell us why some might accept them as such....

“But if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away with; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away with. 9 For we have partial knowledge and we prophesy partially, 10 but when what is complete comes, what is partial will be done away with. 11 When I was a child, I used to speak as a child, to think as a child, to reason as a child; but now that I have become a man, I have done away with the traits of a child.”

If satan can use his own power to fake ‘miracles’ then it stands to reason that once Christianity was well established, (after the apostolic period had accomplished the widespread acceptance of Jesus as the Christ) the gifts would cease. All the gifts were passed on by the apostles and I believe that they when the apostles died, the gifts died with them.
That makes sense to me because it would mean that Christ’s true disciples (who would be caught up in the foretold apostasy to come) could not be fooled by 'magic'. So many today are, because satan sells himself as “an angel of light”.

2 Corinthians 11:13-15....
“13 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder, for Satan himself keeps disguising himself as an angel of light. 15 It is therefore nothing extraordinary if his ministers also keep disguising themselves as ministers of righteousness. But their end will be according to their works.”

What do we see in those “works”? Many of the healing miracles seen today, either don’t work or are temporary. What does that do to people’s faith, especially when a failure is often said to be the fault of the receiver....lacking faith etc. The truth is, the success or failure was squarely on the shoulders of the healer. None of the miracles performed in the first century were failures. God's spirit cannot fail. Some did not even know who Jesus was. It is supposedly the same holy spirit operating today.....but I don’t see it. I see a poor imitation.

When people pray in all sincerity for a miracle regarding a sick relative or friend.....and no miracle occurs, is it because God did not deem that person as worthy of a healing? Why do these prayers so often go unanswered.....is God really that capricious? What are people to think?

The first thing I wish to say is that Satan is a created being and has never rivalled God! Satan's powers are inferior to the power of God, and are only a threat to those who walk after the flesh. You say that Satan was able to reproduce the miracle of the serpents at the time of Moses and Aaron, but this is not true. The power of the Lord consumed the satanic counterfeit; 'Aaron's rod swallowed up their rods' [Exodus 7:12].

The same truths apply now as in the first century. The Spirit of God operates at a higher level than counterfeits and evil spirits. This is why Christ is authoritative over all evil.

When Jesus performed miracles, how did the false accusations of the Pharisees get rebuffed by Jesus? The Lord said, 'if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how then shall his kingdom stand? And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges. But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you'.

The Church of God has been given the power to cast out demons and to deal with the strongholds that imprison and enslave the sinner. There is victory for those that walk by the Spirit of God in faith, but a believer will never know that victory unless they are taught what it means to be born again of God's Spirit.

This is what Jesus said to his disciples before he departed to heaven [Mark 16:15-18]. 'Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.'

Nowhere in this passage is there any indication that these signs were for the apostles alone. In fact, if you read this passage carefully, you will see that 'signs shall follow them that believe'. Evidently 'them that believe' are not the apostles because the apostles are the ones who preach the gospel! How do you account for the fact that believers will cast out devils, speak in tongues, take up serpents and heal the sick?

 

[Deeje]

The first thing I wish to say is that Satan is a created being and has never rivalled God! Satan's powers are inferior to the power of God, and are only a threat to those who walk after the flesh. You say that Satan was able to reproduce the miracle of the serpents at the time of Moses and Aaron, but this is not true. The power of the Lord consumed the satanic counterfeit; 'Aaron's rod swallowed up their rods' [Exodus 7:12].

First of all, let me tell you that I understand your reaction here. No one wants to think that their beliefs are false or that they have been deceived all their lives. That was my reaction when I realized that all I had been taught in my church, was false. I never knew that Jesus and his apostles had forewarned about a coming apostasy, where Christianity would fall off the tracks in the same way that Judaism did.....relying on the traditions of men rather than on the word of God. This explains to me why Jesus can say to the "many" "I never knew you"...."Never" means "not ever".....so right from the beginning, these pseudo-Christians who had deviated from Christ's teaching, gained momentum as the weeds that Jesus foretold.

1 John 4:1-3, written towards the end of the first century, says...
"Beloved ones, do not believe every inspired statement, but test the inspired statements to see whether they originate with God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world.

2 This is how you know that the inspired statement is from God: Every inspired statement that acknowledges Jesus Christ as having come in the flesh originates with God. 3 But every inspired statement that does not acknowledge Jesus does not originate with God. Furthermore, this is the antichrist’s inspired statement that you have heard was coming, and now it is already in the world."

Paul had also warned about these false prophets...the "anti-Christ" was "already in the world" back then. The "weeds" still had a lot of growing to do. History is littered with the sad tales of how Christendom was born and how it has corrupted all that Jesus taught.

Your statement above is basically ignoring what is stated in Exodus 7....that the "magic" performed by the sorcerers was from the devil and it actually rivaled the first miracles that Moses and Aaron performed.

Of course it is inferior, but in the small things it was enough to convince the Egyptians that their priests were just as powerful.
God went on to show them power beyond anything their magicians could even dream about.

So what is the holy spirit doing today that is as big as the things seen in Egypt, or even in the first century?

The same truths apply now as in the first century. The Spirit of God operates at a higher level than counterfeits and evil spirits. This is why Christ is authoritative over all evil.

If it was "authoritative over all evil" right now, it would have eliminated it from existence.....so why hasn't it?

The holy spirit is superior, no doubt about that......but what can satan do, compared to what God's spirit can do? Can we mistake one for the other? Why did those who experienced the miracle healings later die from other causes? Lazarus, we know was raised back to life by Jesus himself....yet he too died again later on. Can you tell me why? What was the purpose of his resurrection at that time? His sister believed that "the resurrection" (as taught in the Hebrew scriptures) was yet future. (John 11:21-23)

When Jesus performed miracles, how did the false accusations of the Pharisees get rebuffed by Jesus? The Lord said, 'if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how then shall his kingdom stand? And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges. But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you'.

Jesus was the son of God and his miracles were the direct result of the operation of God's spirit.
“Beelzebub” is a designation applied to Satan the prince, or ruler, of the demons. The religious leaders blasphemously accused Jesus Christ of expelling demons by means of Beelzebub.
The response of the Pharisees in accusing Jesus of using the power of Beelzebub (literally "Lord of the Flies") was because they could not attribute his power (which was undeniable) to God because he was condemning them and what they taught.

 

[Deeje]

The Church of God has been given the power to cast out demons and to deal with the strongholds that imprison and enslave the sinner. There is victory for those that walk by the Spirit of God in faith, but a believer will never know that victory unless they are taught what it means to be born again of God's Spirit.

I guess it depends on what you believe being "born again" actually means.

But again we have to compare what took place in original Christianity with what we see happening today.....satan has the power to cause illness as we saw with Job, so what is to prevent him from using his power to imitate what God can do in the small things, but utterly fail in the bigger ones, as well as those smaller things?

Raising the dead was part of the first century gifts.

Matthew 10:5-8...
"These 12 Jesus sent out, giving them these instructions: “Do not go off into the road of the nations, and do not enter any Sa·marʹi·tan city; 6 but instead, go continually to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 As you go, preach, saying: ‘The Kingdom of the heavens has drawn near.’ 8 Cure the sick, raise up the dead, make lepers clean, expel demons. You received free, give free."

If we see only some of those gifts and these are the smaller, easier to mimic things......where are the larger ones, like raising the dead? It is seen in the scriptures that no one who came to be cured of their infirmities, even the restoration of withered limbs, went home the same as they left.

The ability to speak unlearned languages was also evident so that all who came to Jerusalem for the Festival from foreign lands, could here the message of salvation in their own tongue.
Acts 2:4-8, 11...after the outpouring of the holy spirit at Pentecost.....
"....they all became filled with holy spirit and started to speak in different languages, just as the spirit enabled them to speak.

5 At that time devout Jews from every nation under heaven were staying in Jerusalem. 6 So when this sound occurred, a crowd gathered and was bewildered, because each one heard them speaking in his own language. 7 Indeed, they were utterly amazed and said: “See here, all these who are speaking are Gal·i·leʹans, are they not? 8 How is it, then, that each one of us is hearing his own native language?. . . . we hear them speaking in our languages about the magnificent things of God."

Were the tongues just gibberish like we hear today? I have spoken to those who confessed to faking the gibberish just to fit in with the church and avoid feeling unworthy of the gift in the eyes of others.

Remember too how Jesus demonstrated power over the elements when he calmed a windstorm.

If this is the same holy spirit, then where are the 'big things' seen in his care for the flock? Why do many people who pray for a miracle not get one? Why are they not spared when natural disasters hit? Why are they not saved from terminal illnesses when they pray just as fervently for help to the same God, for the same holy spirit? Can you explain?

Do you just ignore the discrepancies in your need to have those miracles attributable to God, because the other option is unthinkable?
If they are not from God, and the devil has deceived many people with his minor abilities, what would that mean for them?

Did you know that miracles were not performed on believers? They were to be demonstrated only on 'unbelievers' (those not baptized) in order to bring them to Christ. The apostles could not cure themselves or even each other. Paul recommended a little wine for Timothy's frequent cases of sickness. (1 Timothy 5:23)
I'll leave you to think about what that means.

 

[Deeje]

This is what Jesus said to his disciples before he departed to heaven [Mark 16:15-18]. 'Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.'

A little problem with Mark 16.....in the accepted Bible canon it ends at verse 8. Some manuscripts end with verse 8, others include a short ending, others have a long ending, and some even give both endings. In addition to this testimony of the Greek manuscripts, all of which combines to cast doubt on Mark’s having written anything beyond verse 8, there are a number of the oldest versions (or translations) that do not contain the verses in question. Among such are ancient Syriac, Armenian and Ethiopic versions. Noted manuscript authority Dr. Westcott states that “the verses which follow [Mark 16:9-20] are no part of the original narrative but an appendage.”

I can happily discount the snake handling......as some like to demonstrate today but who have died after being bitten. Drinking poison is a bit silly too IMO....

Nowhere in this passage is there any indication that these signs were for the apostles alone. In fact, if you read this passage carefully, you will see that 'signs shall follow them that believe'. Evidently 'them that believe' are not the apostles because the apostles are the ones who preach the gospel! How do you account for the fact that believers will cast out devils, speak in tongues, take up serpents and heal the sick?

Having discounted that passage, we see that in all other scripture, that the apostles were always present in the laying on of hand in transmitting the gifts to others. They could not be passed on any other way.

What do you think it means to "believe" in view of James 2:14-20...
"Of what benefit is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but he does not have works? That faith cannot save him, can it? 15 If any brothers or sisters are lacking clothing and enough food for the day, 16 yet one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but you do not give them what they need for their body, of what benefit is it? 17 So, too, faith by itself, without works, is dead.

18 Nevertheless, someone will say: “You have faith, and I have works. Show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.” 19 You believe that there is one God, do you? You are doing quite well. And yet the demons believe and shudder. 20 But do you care to know, O empty man, that faith without works is useless?"

"Faith" is a requirement but so is "works"......what works do you think he meant? Since Paul said that the miracles of the first century would cease, and be replaced by more mature evidences, there must be other works that are more important, but not easily faked by the devil's trickery.....

What did Jesus command? (Matthew 28:19-20) What did he say would be an evidence of his backing that assignment with God's spirit? (Matthew 24:14; Matthew 10:11-14)

When was the last time a member of Christendom's churches came to your door with "the good news of God's Kingdom"? For me....the answer is "never".

 

[Redemptionsong]

A little problem with Mark 16.....in the accepted Bible canon it ends at verse 8. Some manuscripts end with verse 8, others include a short ending, others have a long ending, and some even give both endings. In addition to this testimony of the Greek manuscripts, all of which combines to cast doubt on Mark’s having written anything beyond verse 8, there are a number of the oldest versions (or translations) that do not contain the verses in question. Among such are ancient Syriac, Armenian and Ethiopic versions. Noted manuscript authority Dr. Westcott states that “the verses which follow [Mark 16:9-20] are no part of the original narrative but an appendage.”

I can happily discount the snake handling......as some like to demonstrate today but who have died after being bitten. Drinking poison is a bit silly too IMO....



Having discounted that passage, we see that in all other scripture, that the apostles were always present in the laying on of hand in transmitting the gifts to others. They could not be passed on any other way.

What do you think it means to "believe" in view of James 2:14-20...
"Of what benefit is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but he does not have works? That faith cannot save him, can it? 15 If any brothers or sisters are lacking clothing and enough food for the day, 16 yet one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but you do not give them what they need for their body, of what benefit is it? 17 So, too, faith by itself, without works, is dead.

18 Nevertheless, someone will say: “You have faith, and I have works. Show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.” 19 You believe that there is one God, do you? You are doing quite well. And yet the demons believe and shudder. 20 But do you care to know, O empty man, that faith without works is useless?"

"Faith" is a requirement but so is "works"......what works do you think he meant? Since Paul said that the miracles of the first century would cease, and be replaced by more mature evidences, there must be other works that are more important, but not easily faked by the devil's trickery.....

What did Jesus command? (Matthew 28:19-20) What did he say would be an evidence of his backing that assignment with God's spirit? (Matthew 24:14; Matthew 10:11-14)

When was the last time a member of Christendom's churches came to your door with "the good news of God's Kingdom"? For me....the answer is "never".

Deeje, if we're to have a meaningful discussion about God's will and purpose, we must be able to trust the revealed Word of God!

Here's a summary of the last twelve verses of Mark 16 provided by the Speaker's Commentary.
'After careful, and certainly a dispassionate, survey of the whole subject, we feel bound to express our entire concurrence in the opinion expressed by Dr Scrivener, the first living scholar in questions of textual criticism, who 'defends the authenticity of this long and important passage, and that without the slightest misgiving' ('Introd.' p.507). Such, too, is the opinion of Bishop Wordsworth and McClellan. Bleek also maintains its authenticity: see Einl. p.292, and compare the remarks of Hilgenfeld in note, p.306. To dean Burgon belongs the credit of a thorough examination of every argument which has been brought against the passage, in the course of which examination a vast mass of new and valuable materials has been brought to light. But in recording this result of enquiry, we feel equally bound to express deep regret that on either side any expressions should have been used calculated to excite feelings of antagonism. The critics, who in the early Church raised or accepted the objections to the passage, were certainly not actuated by motives derogatory to Christianity, nor did they go beyond the fair limits of criticism in examining the evidence for or against the authenticity of any portion of the received text of Scripture. Among the moderns who concur in rejecting this portion are found men of the highest character, not only for learning and critical acumen, but for deep, hearty reverence for the Word of God; nor would the present writer have felt the slightest hesitation in adopting their conclusion, which, at the outset of the enquiry, he had himself regarded as all but certain, had he not been convinced of the unsoundness of the grounds on which it rests. It is simply a question of evidence; as it seems to the writer, the evidence of the immense majority of manuscripts, of ancient Versions, on the one side; on the other, of a single critic of great eminence, influenced by considerations which, in other cases, would generally be regarded as alien to the scientific inquiry. The rejection might, perhaps, remove some difficulties in the exegesis of Scripture; the acceptance confirms our confidence in the general accuracy of the text of Scripture, and leaves us in undisturbed possession of facts important in their bearings upon the work of the Saviour and the destinies of His Church.' [Canon Cook, St. Marks Gospel, The Speaker's Commentary]

This support for the authenticity of the last twelve verses of Mark 16 may not fit with your theology, but it cannot be rejected on that basis. There are sound reasons for the passage to be included, based on a broad consensus of opinion.

You say that you reject all ideas of 'taking up serpents' and not being hurt by poison, but you seem to forget that scripture gives us a later example of just this happening!

Acts 28:3-6: 'And when Paul had gathered a bundle of sticks, and laid them on the fire, there came a viper out of the heat, and fastened on his hand.
And when the barbarians saw the venomous beast hang on his hand, they said among themselves, No doubt this man is a murderer, whom, though he had escaped the sea, yet vengeance suffereth not to live.
And he shook off the beast into the fire, and felt no harm.
Howbeit they looked when he should have swollen, or fallen down dead suddenly: but after they had looked a great while, and saw no harm come to him, they changed their minds, and said that he was a god.'

I suggest that we look carefully at what it means to be 'born again' as this is clearly an important issue of disagreement between us.

 

[Redemptionsong]

'Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.' [John 3:5,6]

Jesus is clearly referring (verse 5) to baptism in the Holy Spirit, but what does 'water' refer to? Some people believe it's a reference to repentance, but I believe, based on the context (verse 6), that this is a reference to the water of human birth. This matches Jesus' use of parables, illustrating the earthly alongside the heavenly.

If we accept this interpretation of the words 'water' and 'Spirit', then we can begin to think about Pentecost, the first occasion on which the followers of Jesus Christ experienced an outpouring of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Deeje]

Deeje, if we're to have a meaningful discussion about God's will and purpose, we must be able to trust the revealed Word of God!

I couldn’t agree more....but “the revealed word of God” in this one instance is under suspicion as having been added later.

“Supporting this testimony of the Greek manuscripts and versions are the church historian Eusebius and the Bible translator Jerome. Eusebius wrote that the longer ending was not in the “accurate copies,” for “at this point the end of the Gospel according to Mark is determined in nearly all the copies of the Gospel according to Mark.” And Jerome, writing in the year 406 or 407 C.E. said that “nearly all Greek MSS. have not got this passage.”

Quite pertinent here is what the New Catholic Encyclopedia (1966), Volume 9, page 240, has to say about these verses: “The manuscript tradition indicates that the Gospel originally ended at 16.8, but that the longer ending that is incorporated in the Vulgate was later added, becoming widely accepted in the course of the 5th century. . . . Its vocabulary and style differ so radically from the rest of the Gospel that it hardly seems possible Mark himself composed it. . . . Mark 16.1-8 is a satisfactory ending to the Gospel insofar as it declares Jesus’ Resurrection-prophecy to be fulfilled.”
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/101973561?q=mark+16&p=par

“Manuscripts without either ending

Mark ends at 16:8 in the 4th-century Codex Vaticanus Graecus 1209
The earliest extant complete manuscripts of Mark, Codex Sinaiticus and Codex Vaticanus, two 4th-century manuscripts, do not contain the last twelve verses, 16:9–20, nor the unversed shorter ending.[note 7] Codex Vaticanus (4th century) has a blank column after ending at 16:8 and placing kata Markon, "according to Mark". There are three other blank columns in Vaticanus, in the Old Testament, but they are each due to incidental factors in the production of the codex: a change to the column-format, a change of scribes, and the conclusion of the Old Testament portion of the text. The blank column between Mark 16:8 and the beginning of Luke, however, is deliberately placed.[note 8]

Other manuscripts which omit the last twelve verses include: Syriac Sinaiticus (late 4th-century); Minuscule 304 (12th century); a Sahidic manuscript; over 100 Armenian manuscripts; the two oldest Georgian manuscripts. The Armenian Version was made in 411-450, and the Old Georgian Version was based mainly on the Armenian Version.” (Wiki)

Pick your scholars.....the jury is not unanimous. One passage does not make a doctrine.

This support for the authenticity of the last twelve verses of Mark 16 may not fit with your theology, but it cannot be rejected on that basis. There are sound reasons for the passage to be included, based on a broad consensus of opinion.

Well, if this one passage is in question by those who lived closer to its writing, but is clung to by people like yourself who need it to be true in order to uphold your own theology, then I am left to wonder about your own trust in “the revealed word of God”. It has been “revealed” that this passage is under suspicion.

You say that you reject all ideas of 'taking up serpents' and not being hurt by poison, but you seem to forget that scripture gives us a later example of just this happening!

Acts 28:3-6: 'And when Paul had gathered a bundle of sticks, and laid them on the fire, there came a viper out of the heat, and fastened on his hand.
And when the barbarians saw the venomous beast hang on his hand, they said among themselves, No doubt this man is a murderer, whom, though he had escaped the sea, yet vengeance suffereth not to live.
And he shook off the beast into the fire, and felt no harm.
Howbeit they looked when he should have swollen, or fallen down dead suddenly: but after they had looked a great while, and saw no harm come to him, they changed their minds, and said that he was a god.'

Paul having been bitten by one snake and surviving is hardly grounds for what is suggested in Mark 16:16-18.
Can you tell me what miracles performed by the early disciples were not acts that promoted the preaching and benefits of God’s kingdom? What place do venomous serpents and drinking poison have in the kingdom of God?

I suggest that we look carefully at what it means to be 'born again' as this is clearly an important issue of disagreement between us.

Let’s concentrate on the questions under discussion.....shall we? The ones asked in my last post to you have still remained unanswered thus far.

All of these questions are important because if we can’t answer them, then we have no idea what Christianity is all about, how we separate truth from lies, and how it all ends.

How can we teach others and answer their questions if we cannot answer them ourselves?

 

[Deeje]

'Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.' [John 3:5,6]

Jesus is clearly referring (verse 5) to baptism in the Holy Spirit, but what does 'water' refer to? Some people believe it's a reference to repentance, but I believe, based on the context (verse 6), that this is a reference to the water of human birth. This matches Jesus' use of parables, illustrating the earthly alongside the heavenly.

If we accept this interpretation of the words 'water' and 'Spirit', then we can begin to think about Pentecost, the first occasion on which the followers of Jesus Christ experienced an outpouring of the Holy Spirit.

Since “baptism” is involved in each instance, then the water of baptism fits way more appropriately than the amniotic fluid of birth. All are born of that water, but the disciples of Jesus “chose” the water of baptism because it is an outward symbol of belonging to Christ......the baptism of holy spirit is only given to those of God’s choosing from among those who have dedicated themselves to Christ, and “doing the will of the Father”.

Why was Jesus baptized? What did his baptism mean?

Do you not see the water baptism followed by the spiritual baptism? He set the pattern.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Since “baptism” is involved in each instance, then the water of baptism fits way more appropriately than the amniotic fluid of birth. All are born of that water, but the disciples of Jesus “chose” the water of baptism because it is an outward symbol of belonging to Christ......the baptism of holy spirit is only given to those of God’s choosing from among those who have dedicated themselves to Christ, and “doing the will of the Father”.

Why was Jesus baptized? What did his baptism mean?

Do you not see the water baptism followed by the spiritual baptism? He set the pattern.

I believe Jesus was baptised so as to anoint him as the Christ. This meant that the Spirit of God, without measure, came to dwell upon the person of Jesus. From my reading of the scriptures, I understand that Jesus Christ was both fully man and fully God.

I believe that there is no set pattern or order to baptism. With Jesus the two (water and Spirit baptism) were practically simultaneous, but we know from the stories of Cornelius and Apollos that the order is not always the same. Cornelius and his household received the Holy Spirit before water baptism [Acts 10], whilst Apollos received the Holy Spirit after believing and preaching Christ [Acts 18].

What you say above does not, IMO, follow the teaching of scripture because the Holy Spirit is not just given to those that have shown themselves to have 'dedicated themselves to Christ'. If this were the case, it would be a gift earned by merit or works, when scripture tells us that the promise comes by faith. The position you appear to hold comes very close to Roman Catholic canonisation or sainthood.

There appears to be an inconsistency in your theology. You say that you believe that Jehovah is in control, and that ultimately his will determines the canon of scripture. Yet, when a passage, such as the last twelve verses of Mark 16 doesn't fit with your theology, you follow the conclusions of a modern Victorian revisionist, B.F Westcott! What are we left thinking when we read the words of Revelation 22:19? 'And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book'.

 

[Deeje]

I believe Jesus was baptised so as to anoint him as the Christ. This meant that the Spirit of God, without measure, came to dwell upon the person of Jesus. From my reading of the scriptures, I understand that Jesus Christ was both fully man and fully God.

Can you tell me why you believe that Jesus was "fully God and fully man" at the time of his earthly ministry?...is there scripture that supports this idea? (Please don't cite John 1:1 because that is shot down by John 1:18.)

When did he become this half man half God? If it was at his birth, then why could he not perform miracles before his baptism? And if it was at his baptism, then he was not God for the first 30 years of his life. Can you explain this please?

From my own studies of the Bible for just on 50 years now, I see no reason why Jesus had to be God in order to bring about redemption for the human race. In fact if Jesus had been God it would have overpaid the ransom by an immeasurable amount. (1 Timothy 2:6) Like 6,000 trillion dollars paid to someone who only demanded 60 thousand....

If you understand the mechanics of redemption, you will see that an equivalency was necessary in God's law to bring about his justice. "An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, a life for a life" was the foundation of the ransom paid by Christ for the sins of mankind. All Jesus needed to be was the equivalent of Adam to offer his perfect sinless life for the perfect sinless life that Adam lost for his children. ( 1 Corinthians 15:22)

It would also mean that an immortal God could be killed by mere humans. Nothing can kill an immortal, so if Jesus was God, he couldn't really die, and so if he did not die, then the ransom was not paid....and man is still lost in his sins. A ransom is a set amount equivalent to what that life is worth to the one demanding the ransom. In this case, it was God.

1 Corinthians 15:45....
"So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living person.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit."

Having a "life for a life" meant that as "the last Adam", Jesus needed to be a sinless human in every sense. 100% human, not a god/man, which is nowhere taught in scripture....in fact the scriptures themselves do not ever put Jesus on an equal footing with his Father, as this would have broken the First Commandment. (Exodus 20:3) It would be a blasphemy.

In John 17:3 Jesus calls his Father "the only true God" without including himself.
In John 1:18, it says that "no man has ever seen God at any time"....but we know that thousands of people saw Jesus.
The apostle Paul identified the only God who was worshipped by the apostles....
1 Corinthians 8:5-6...
"For even though there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many “gods” and many “lords,” 6 there is actually to us one God, the Father, from whom all things are and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are and we through him."

What can you provide to prove that Jesus was not who he said he was...."The Son of God"...never "God the Son".If Paul calls Jesus the "firstborn of all creation" (Colossians 1:15-17) how can he be God?

I believe that there is no set pattern or order to baptism. With Jesus the two (water and Spirit baptism) were practically simultaneous, but we know from the stories of Cornelius and Apollos that the order is not always the same. Cornelius and his household received the Holy Spirit before water baptism [Acts 10], whilst Apollos received the Holy Spirit after believing and preaching Christ [Acts 18].

In the case of Cornelius, Peter was convinced of God's approval for this Gentile and his family to become part of the Christian congregation.....the first Gentile who did not need conversion to Judaism to become an approved worshipper of Jehovah.
The operation of God's spirit along with the vision Peter received, was proof enough for him to baptize them in water.

Apollos was on the right track but just need a little help from his friends to supply some more detail. (Acts 18:24-26; 1 Corinthians 3:6-7)

In each case we see something out of the ordinary, not something regularly seen. Those who heard John and repented were baptized in symbol of that repentance, but all who wished to become a follower of Christ had to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ......so a second baptism was required. One had to have a knowledge of Christ's teachings to receive that baptism....as Jesus commanded...

Matthew 28:19-20...
"Go, therefore, and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you. And look! I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.”

This was a work that had to be accomplished right up until the end of the age. Teaching was a requisite for people to know what their baptism meant. No one could know it for them or make a proxy baptism for them. This eliminates infant baptism as legitimate. It has to be a choice made with full knowledge of what it means.

What you say above does not, IMO, follow the teaching of scripture because the Holy Spirit is not just given to those that have shown themselves to have 'dedicated themselves to Christ'. If this were the case, it would be a gift earned by merit or works, when scripture tells us that the promise comes by faith.

We need faith but also works. You can't have one without the other. One is proof of the other.

James 2:14-17....
"Of what benefit is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but he does not have works? That faith cannot save him, can it? 15 If any brothers or sisters are lacking clothing and enough food for the day, 16 yet one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but you do not give them what they need for their body, of what benefit is it? 17 So, too, faith by itself, without works, is dead."

Faith alone will save no one. Jesus' final judgment of mankind will be on "DOING the will of the Father"...not just "believing" in Christ and assuming that "once saved always saved".....it doesn't work like that. We can lose our salvation by disobedience as Peter said...

2 Peter 2:20-22....
"Certainly if after escaping from the defilements of the world by an accurate knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they get involved again with these very things and are overcome, their final state has become worse for them than the first. 21 It would have been better for them not to have accurately known the path of righteousness than after knowing it to turn away from the holy commandment they had received. 22 What the true proverb says has happened to them: “The dog has returned to its own vomit, and the sow that was bathed to rolling in the mire.”

Never would we want to have that said about us....

The position you appear to hold comes very close to Roman Catholic canonisation or sainthood.

Not even close. It does however agree with the scriptures that the anointed ones are chosen by God, not by men.
Those who qualify as "kings and priests" in the coming Kingdom, (Revelation 20:6) have proven their loyalty to God and his Christ to their death. As "kings" they need subjects...and as "priests" they need sinners for whom to intercede and to perform their priestly duties......so who are their subjects, since there are no sinners in heaven?

There appears to be an inconsistency in your theology. You say that you believe that Jehovah is in control, and that ultimately his will determines the canon of scripture. Yet, when a passage, such as the last twelve verses of Mark 16 doesn't fit with your theology, you follow the conclusions of a modern Victorian revisionist, B.F Westcott!

Was Westcott the only one to question the inclusion of the last verses of Mark 16? Please read post #77 again and see that the questioning goes back way further than Westcott. Not only does the passage not fit my theology, it doesn't fit with the rest of scripture. There is no reporting of snake handling or drinking poison as proof of God's spirit anywhere else in the Christian scriptures.

Since the long conclusion and even the short one are in question, we can rest assured that we have advance warning not to take them as seriously as the rest of the gospels. None of them even mention what Mark is said to have reported. You attempted to make a point of referring to this passage as something to take seriously.....I can only ask why? Is it to support your belief in the operation of God's spirit in a miraculous way in our day? I'm sorry but this is one passage that you cannot use to prove anything of the sort.

The gifts died with the apostles. Whatever is done today is not by the power of God's spirit, no matter how much we want to believe it. If it was, it would be competing with the powerful works of the devil mentioned by Paul as proof of the apostasy. (2 Thessalonians 2:9-12) Why would God make us confused about that? By withdrawing the power of the spirit after the first century, God leaves us in no doubt about the source of "miracles" in later times.

What are we left thinking when we read the words of Revelation 22:19? 'And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book'.

What is the scroll to which John was referring? It was the prophesy on the end times (a Revelation of the future) written in symbolic language that would only be understood at this time in history. He was not referring to the gospels, if that is what you are inferring.....