Heal me, O LORD

[Kenny]

I agree.

Now let me throw this scenario at you.

You talk with a neighbour over the fence. You ask him how he's keeping. He says, Not so well. I've just had a diagnosis of cancer. Hopefully they've caught it early enough to treat, but who knows?

What is your response?

It would depend on where they are at. Since it isn't a made up scenario for me, I can give you the differences that have happened. But it usually starts with "Can I pray for you?". Certainly it depends where they are at in their journey of faith.

1. I have had people say "NO" - and meant it. So, it is up to that person from there and their doctor
2. If they say "Yes" - I have asked "What do you want from God"... much like Jesus asking the blind man "what do you want" - If they say... "I want the Chemo to have a proper effect (or something along those lines" then I pray according to their faith.
3. For a man "Mario", he first received Jesus and then wanted to know more about God and as he learned about God's healing power, the better he got.

When possible, I teach them. Sometimes I am able to penetrate their thinking process and they change their position that "it is a punishment from God" to "God wants me healed"

so, basically, each situation is different. Sometime I believe there is a spirit of infirmity involved and pray accordingly

For Jesus:

1. He could not do any miracles for their unbelief
2. He taught them
3. "I believe but help me in my unbelief"
4. etc. etc etc.

I just try to follow God's Holy Spirit for the moment.

what do you do?

 

[Nakosis]

To be 'whole' must be in body, soul and spirit.
Do you think that God wants to heal people of physical sickness and disease?

Well, I can only give my opinion as I'm not aware of scripture to back it up.

My answer is no.
sickness and disease are part of the experience of life. Part of this is the experience of overcoming adversity. For example, I can always step in and help my grandson overcome some difficulty he is facing but I'd rather see him overcome it on his own. He learns nothing if I remove the obstacle from his path.

 

[Deeje]

What kind of healing, if any, can you expect from the LORD?

I too see this healing to be more mental and spiritual than physical. We have examples in the Bible of supernatural events and physical healing, but in the context of the times, we also see why they were performed and why God did those things through the operation of his spirit back then......and why they are now part of his written word. The power of those demonstrations leaves us in no doubt about God's ability to 'move mountains' if necessary.

It's interesting to see that people are reluctant to include physical healing. Why is this?

If one is going to attribute physical healing to God, then that leaves a whole lot of people wondering why God didn't heal them or their loved one when prayers and supplications were offered? Or why the healing was only temporary and the sick one ended up back where they started. Is God up there like the Caesars of old giving the thumbs up or the thumbs down when someone asks for a miracle?

Why were the miracles in the Bible recorded in the first place? Wasn't it because God was demonstrating all the things that will be seen when Christ establishes his Kingdom here on earth....the healing, the education, the raising of the dead and the power over the elements that Jesus displayed in calming a wind storm?

Paul said concerning the need to see miracles.....1 Corinthians 13:11-13...
" When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully, just as I also have been fully known. 13 But now faith, hope, and love remain, these three; but the greatest of these is love."

Immature Christians have a need to see miracles apparently, but those who grow to maturity with the complete word of God, see the greatest evidences for God's spirit in "faith, hope and love".

Paul also said...1 Corinthians 13:1-3
"If I speak with the tongues of mankind and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and know all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 And if I give away all my possessions to charity, and if I surrender my body so that I may glory, but do not have love, it does me no good."

So its not the "performance" of miracles themselves that prove the presence of God's spirit.....the real evidence is something the devil cannot mimic...."love"...genuine love, seen in the entire brotherhood at unity in a disunited world.

John 13:35...
"By this all people will know that you are My disciples: if you have love for one another.”

I was asking whether disbelief in healing amounts to disbelief in God.

No way.....disbelief in modern day miracles is about discerning why miracles were given in the first place....and why, what we see today doesn't resemble those first century miracles at all.
Speaking in tongues for many is faked. And since there is no one to "interpret" on most occasions, the person was to remain silent. (1 Corinthians 14:27-28)

Now let me throw this scenario at you.

You talk with a neighbour over the fence. You ask him how he's keeping. He says, Not so well. I've just had a diagnosis of cancer. Hopefully they've caught it early enough to treat, but who knows?

What is your response?

How many people front up to healing ministries only to succumb to the cancers that they prayed to be healed from? Did God not want to heal that person for some reason? How many failures were there in the first century?

Matthew 4:23-24..... "Jesus was going about in all of Galilee, teaching in their synagogues and proclaiming the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every disease and every sickness among the people. And the news about Him spread throughout Syria; and they brought to Him all who were ill, those suffering with various diseases and severe pain, demon-possessed, people with epilepsy, and people who were paralyzed; and He healed them."

No one who came to Jesus to be healed was not 100% cured.
It distresses me that some people have their faith dashed by the failure of these so called healing ministry churches....some of which can be a real sideshow....falling down "slain in the spirit"....what a load of hogwash!

That is not what Jesus did.

If my neighbor told me they had cancer, I would wish them well in whatever treatment they chose to pursue, knowing that the cure rate is abysmally small. Life is a gift from God which has been sullied by sin.......sin presents as unhealthy people and lifestyles choices, but all our lives will end in death sooner or later....no one really knows what will take them out or when, so having hope in the resurrection takes the sting out of death, knowing that a reunion with loved ones will take place in the new world to come. (John 5:28-29; Revelation 21:2-4)

 

[Redemptionsong]

It would depend on where they are at. Since it isn't a made up scenario for me, I can give you the differences that have happened. But it usually starts with "Can I pray for you?". Certainly it depends where they are at in their journey of faith.

1. I have had people say "NO" - and meant it. So, it is up to that person from there and their doctor
2. If they say "Yes" - I have asked "What do you want from God"... much like Jesus asking the blind man "what do you want" - If they say... "I want the Chemo to have a proper effect (or something along those lines" then I pray according to their faith.
3. For a man "Mario", he first received Jesus and then wanted to know more about God and as he learned about God's healing power, the better he got.

When possible, I teach them. Sometimes I am able to penetrate their thinking process and they change their position that "it is a punishment from God" to "God wants me healed"

so, basically, each situation is different. Sometime I believe there is a spirit of infirmity involved and pray accordingly

For Jesus:

1. He could not do any miracles for their unbelief
2. He taught them
3. "I believe but help me in my unbelief"
4. etc. etc etc.

I just try to follow God's Holy Spirit for the moment.

what do you do?

I go along with all you say, here, but if there's one thing l've learnt about faith it's that there's no room for doubt!

My personal enquiry into healing began when l met a pastor who had faith for healing. At the time l was suffering with a bad back that made it hard to bend and put socks on. He simply asked me if he could pray. He did, in the name of Jesus, and l experienced complete relief immediately. I also witnessed him pray for other people with various pains, all of whom were immediately relieved.

I discussed healing with him, and he admitted that some challenges went beyond his faith, though he recalled praying for a woman in Poland who was immediately healed of her cancer. In that case, he had a picture given to him of the shadow of her cancer.

I began to read and learn more from the writings of Pentecostals such as Wigglesworth, Woodworth-Etter and Lake, all of whom believed that healing was in the atonement.

By this time, l had come to the point where l was ready to pray for others with an expectation of results. And it was then that l began to see people getting healed; some immediately, some over a short period of time. There were also cases where no visible healing took place, and l was left to ponder why. I would let the person know that it was my failing if nothing happened. I was still learning what it really meant to have faith.

The one thing l was absolutely sure about was that Jesus Christ's love for us knows no bounds! The reason we are able to show love and faith to others is because it has first been shown to us by Christ, through the Holy Spirit.

To me the key is that the body of Christ should be doing the work of Jesus on earth. Jesus healed all manner of sickness, and in some cases raised the dead. Our understanding of these things will only be partial until the coming of Christ, but lMO this should not stop us doing what is right and good.

 

[Redemptionsong]

I too see this healing to be more mental and spiritual than physical. We have examples in the Bible of supernatural events and physical healing, but in the context of the times, we also see why they were performed and why God did those things through the operation of his spirit back then......and why they are now part of his written word. The power of those demonstrations leaves us in no doubt about God's ability to 'move mountains' if necessary.



If one is going to attribute physical healing to God, then that leaves a whole lot of people wondering why God didn't heal them or their loved one when prayers and supplications were offered? Or why the healing was only temporary and the sick one ended up back where they started. Is God up there like the Caesars of old giving the thumbs up or the thumbs down when someone asks for a miracle?

Why were the miracles in the Bible recorded in the first place? Wasn't it because God was demonstrating all the things that will be seen when Christ establishes his Kingdom here on earth....the healing, the education, the raising of the dead and the power over the elements that Jesus displayed in calming a wind storm?

Paul said concerning the need to see miracles.....1 Corinthians 13:11-13...
" When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully, just as I also have been fully known. 13 But now faith, hope, and love remain, these three; but the greatest of these is love."

Immature Christians have a need to see miracles apparently, but those who grow to maturity with the complete word of God, see the greatest evidences for God's spirit in "faith, hope and love".

Paul also said...1 Corinthians 13:1-3
"If I speak with the tongues of mankind and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and know all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 And if I give away all my possessions to charity, and if I surrender my body so that I may glory, but do not have love, it does me no good."

So its not the "performance" of miracles themselves that prove the presence of God's spirit.....the real evidence is something the devil cannot mimic...."love"...genuine love, seen in the entire brotherhood at unity in a disunited world.

John 13:35...
"By this all people will know that you are My disciples: if you have love for one another.”



No way.....disbelief in modern day miracles is about discerning why miracles were given in the first place....and why, what we see today doesn't resemble those first century miracles at all.
Speaking in tongues for many is faked. And since there is no one to "interpret" on most occasions, the person was to remain silent. (1 Corinthians 14:27-28)



How many people front up to healing ministries only to succumb to the cancers that they prayed to be healed from? Did God not want to heal that person for some reason? How many failures were there in the first century?

Matthew 4:23-24..... "Jesus was going about in all of Galilee, teaching in their synagogues and proclaiming the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every disease and every sickness among the people. And the news about Him spread throughout Syria; and they brought to Him all who were ill, those suffering with various diseases and severe pain, demon-possessed, people with epilepsy, and people who were paralyzed; and He healed them."

No one who came to Jesus to be healed was not 100% cured.
It distresses me that some people have their faith dashed by the failure of these so called healing ministry churches....some of which can be a real sideshow....falling down "slain in the spirit"....what a load of hogwash!

That is not what Jesus did.

If my neighbor told me they had cancer, I would wish them well in whatever treatment they chose to pursue, knowing that the cure rate is abysmally small. Life is a gift from God which has been sullied by sin.......sin presents as unhealthy people and lifestyles choices, but all our lives will end in death sooner or later....no one really knows what will take them out or when, so having hope in the resurrection takes the sting out of death, knowing that a reunion with loved ones will take place in the new world to come. (John 5:28-29; Revelation 21:2-4)

Hi Deeje,
You're not wrong to highlight our mortality, but the issue of healing in the Word of God should not be a matter of opinion. Either the body of Christ is meant to administer healing to the sick, or it's not. If the body of Christ is not to administer healing, then we should leave it completely alone and not pray for the sick. But if we are to pray for the sick, then why pray without faith? It seems pointless, and wrong.

I am all for finding the true doctrine, but I think we should be cautious about allowing human failings and embarrassment to dictate our attitudes towards God's will and God's promises.

Our starting point is actually a point of agreement. All who came to Jesus for healing were healed. Why was this?

 

[Redemptionsong]

Well, I can only give my opinion as I'm not aware of scripture to back it up.

My answer is no.
sickness and disease are part of the experience of life. Part of this is the experience of overcoming adversity. For example, I can always step in and help my grandson overcome some difficulty he is facing but I'd rather see him overcome it on his own. He learns nothing if I remove the obstacle from his path.

I agree that we should always love others. But to argue that a terminal illness is always good for someone is a bit harsh! There are some forms of adversity that we cannot overcome on our own, or without God's help.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I was asking whether disbelief in healing amounts to disbelief in God.

Thank you for the clarification. The answer is: no, it amounts to an appreciation of the Book of Job and disbelief in an interventionist deity.

 

[Deeje]

You're not wrong to highlight our mortality, but the issue of healing in the Word of God should not be a matter of opinion. Either the body of Christ is meant to administer healing to the sick, or it's not. If the body of Christ is not to administer healing, then we should leave it completely alone and not pray for the sick. But if we are to pray for the sick, then why pray without faith? It seems pointless, and wrong.

Ephesians 2:4-5.....
“But God, being rich in mercy, because of his great love with which he loved us, 5 made us alive together with the Christ, even when we were dead in trespasses—by undeserved kindness you have been saved.”

The words “alive” and “dead” in those verses means what?

The “healing” in this world is not physical just yet.....its more a spiritual healing, because the whole world is under satan’s control. (1 John 5:19) Its not the time for physical healing yet....but it’s coming....

Revelation 21:2-4....
“ I also saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his people. And God himself will be with them. 4 And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.”

This is our future.....only then will God be “with mankind” to heal them and to rid the world of all pain and suffering.

The miracles of the first century were not to last. They were a foregleam of things to come. The failure rate of modern day healing ministries proves that it is not the same spirit that operated in the apostolic period.

I am all for finding the true doctrine, but I think we should be cautious about allowing human failings and embarrassment to dictate our attitudes towards God's will and God's promises.

We have God’s will and promises clearly stated in his word.
What part of it do you find confusing?

Our starting point is actually a point of agreement. All who came to Jesus for healing were healed. Why was this?

Why were those who came to Jesus 10% healed? Because Jesus had the power of holy spirit operating through him and there was a need for showing what God’s spirit could accomplish in the coming kingdom.....as well as proving that God had shifted his favor from the old corrupted form of Jewish worship, to the new covenant arrangement under God’s chosen king and his associates rulers and priests. (Revelation 20:6)

But sadly, not all who claim to have ‘come to Christ’ actually have. How do we know this? Jesus told us....

“Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of the heavens, but only the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. 22 Many will say to me in that day: ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them: ‘I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness!’”

Now this is on judgment day......Imagine these “many” assuming that their “Christianity” was valid...only to find that Jesus never knew them. How could that happen do you think? (2 Thessalonians 2:9-12)

 

[Kenny]

I go along with all you say, here, but if there's one thing l've learnt about faith it's that there's no room for doubt!

My personal enquiry into healing began when l met a pastor who had faith for healing. At the time l was suffering with a bad back that made it hard to bend and put socks on. He simply asked me if he could pray. He did, in the name of Jesus, and l experienced complete relief immediately. I also witnessed him pray for other people with various pains, all of whom were immediately relieved.

I discussed healing with him, and he admitted that some challenges went beyond his faith, though he recalled praying for a woman in Poland who was immediately healed of her cancer. In that case, he had a picture given to him of the shadow of her cancer.

I began to read and learn more from the writings of Pentecostals such as Wigglesworth, Woodworth-Etter and Lake, all of whom believed that healing was in the atonement.

By this time, l had come to the point where l was ready to pray for others with an expectation of results. And it was then that l began to see people getting healed; some immediately, some over a short period of time. There were also cases where no visible healing took place, and l was left to ponder why. I would let the person know that it was my failing if nothing happened. I was still learning what it really meant to have faith.

The one thing l was absolutely sure about was that Jesus Christ's love for us knows no bounds! The reason we are able to show love and faith to others is because it has first been shown to us by Christ, through the Holy Spirit.

To me the key is that the body of Christ should be doing the work of Jesus on earth. Jesus healed all manner of sickness, and in some cases raised the dead. Our understanding of these things will only be partial until the coming of Christ, but lMO this should not stop us doing what is right and good.

AMEN and AMEN!

Love reading about Wigglesworth et al. We should continue the mandate of Jesus to "preach the gospel, heal the sick and raise the dead".

I have a similar testimony of personal healing as you do!

When people say, "God does not heal today and prayer doesn't work", they are a little to late to convince me of that because I have already experienced the miracles of healings and the results of prayer as well as being the vessel for others to experience His love manifestations!

 

[Redemptionsong]

Thank you for the clarification. The answer is: no, it amounts to an appreciation of the Book of Job and disbelief in an interventionist deity.

I also appreciate the book of Job, but I don't see in it a non-interventionist God. Surely, God allows Job's trial because he knows Job's heart and faith? God finally restores to him all that he has lost, and more.

Job 42:10: 'And the LORD turned the captivity of Job, when he prayed for his friends: also the LORD gave Job twice as much as he had before.'

 

[Redemptionsong]

AMEN and AMEN!

Love reading about Wigglesworth et al. We should continue the mandate of Jesus to "preach the gospel, heal the sick and raise the dead".

I have a similar testimony of personal healing as you do!

When people say, "God does not heal today and prayer doesn't work", they are a little to late to convince me of that because I have already experienced the miracles of healings and the results of prayer as well as being the vessel for others to experience His love manifestations!

Good to hear, Ken!

It does make me appreciate that this issue is to do with the heart, and exposes our deepest emotions. You cannot tread this path without encountering powerful forces of opposition. I don't treat the responsibility lightly, or enter the arena without much prayer. On my wall are the words of Psalm 19:14, 'Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer.'

 

[ChristineM]

Jeremiah 17:14. 'Heal me, O LORD, and I shall be healed; save me, and I shall be saved: for thou art my praise.'

Do you have faith that the LORD will heal you?

What kind of healing, if any, can you expect from the LORD?

No

None

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Surely, God allows Job's trial because he knows Job's heart and faith? God finally restores to him all that he has lost, and more.

Surely you do not need to have children of your own to realize the difference between compensation and restoration.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Ephesians 2:4-5.....
“But God, being rich in mercy, because of his great love with which he loved us, 5 made us alive together with the Christ, even when we were dead in trespasses—by undeserved kindness you have been saved.”

The words “alive” and “dead” in those verses means what?

The “healing” in this world is not physical just yet.....its more a spiritual healing, because the whole world is under satan’s control. (1 John 5:19) Its not the time for physical healing yet....but it’s coming....

Revelation 21:2-4....
“ I also saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his people. And God himself will be with them. 4 And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.”

This is our future.....only then will God be “with mankind” to heal them and to rid the world of all pain and suffering.

The miracles of the first century were not to last. They were a foregleam of things to come. The failure rate of modern day healing ministries proves that it is not the same spirit that operated in the apostolic period.



We have God’s will and promises clearly stated in his word.
What part of it do you find confusing?



Why were those who came to Jesus 10% healed? Because Jesus had the power of holy spirit operating through him and there was a need for showing what God’s spirit could accomplish in the coming kingdom.....as well as proving that God had shifted his favor from the old corrupted form of Jewish worship, to the new covenant arrangement under God’s chosen king and his associates rulers and priests. (Revelation 20:6)

But sadly, not all who claim to have ‘come to Christ’ actually have. How do we know this? Jesus told us....

“Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of the heavens, but only the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. 22 Many will say to me in that day: ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them: ‘I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness!’”

Now this is on judgment day......Imagine these “many” assuming that their “Christianity” was valid...only to find that Jesus never knew them. How could that happen do you think? (2 Thessalonians 2:9-12)

The truth is, I don't find God's Word confusing. I find that Jesus ascended to heaven and was given dominion, and a kingdom [Daniel 7:13,14]. This means that Jesus has Lordship at the present time. I have come to believe he is my God and that I belong within his invisible kingdom, the spiritual temple of God [1 Corinthians 3:16]. IMO, this kingdom is entered through faith, and through the indwelling of the promised Holy Spirit.

I don't mean this to sound like a boast. It's not. It's simply a statement of where trust has led me.

The position that you appear to hold is that the Holy Spirit is not in the body of Christ at this time. I say that the Holy Spirit seals and defines the body of Christ.

 

[Samantha Rinne]

It's interesting to see that people are reluctant to include physical healing. Why is this?

Because they think God is only able to do miracles we can't see.
They trust doctors and the secular world too much.

This is also why despite America supposedly being a Christian nation, it only took a few months for people's faith to fall apart. God can heal any disease (including COVID) but you have to actually have faith. Meanwhile, doctors have cured nothing. They can only "treat" disease, meaning you have to keep coming back.

Are you aware that the odds against a cancer going away on its own are rather huge? Despite these odds, there are anecdotes to the effect of someone asking God to just make it vanish, and it has (my dad has one such story)?

 

[Nakosis]

I agree that we should always love others. But to argue that a terminal illness is always good for someone is a bit harsh! There are some forms of adversity that we cannot overcome on our own, or without God's help.

IMO, there is something to be learned from every experience. However, the process is not always pleasant. It may not be good or bad as much as necessary.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Surely you do not need to have children of your own to realize the difference between compensation and restoration.

That's a fair comment, but isn't God also able to raise the dead?

 

[Redemptionsong]

No

None

It says in Jeremiah 17:5, 'Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trustest in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD'.

Did Jeremiah get it wrong?

 

[Redemptionsong]

Because they think God is only able to do miracles we can't see.
They trust doctors and the secular world too much.

This is also why despite America supposedly being a Christian nation, it only took a few months for people's faith to fall apart. God can heal any disease (including COVID) but you have to actually have faith. Meanwhile, doctors have cured nothing. They can only "treat" disease, meaning you have to keep coming back.

Are you aware that the odds against a cancer going away on its own are rather huge? Despite these odds, there are anecdotes to the effect of someone asking God to just make it vanish, and it has (my dad has one such story)?

The COVID pandemic raises difficult issues for the Church. How do you think the Church should react?

 

[ChristineM]

It says in Jeremiah 17:5, 'Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trustest in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD'.

Did Jeremiah get it wrong?

Probably, if you cannot trust your fellow man and instead put your trust in mythology then you can guarantee that someone else trusts in a different myth.
That is a recipe for war and there have been plenty of those in the name of religion throughout history.