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Have you ever seen Jesus?

Shiranui117

Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
Premium Member
Have any of you Christians ever seen Jesus' physical body with His wounds and scars and stuff... not some vague spiritual presence but actually saw Him standing right in front of you?
Sure, I was just in church this past Friday (Orthodox Holy Friday) and there was the icon of Him being laid in the tomb. And every time I'm in church there's His icon on the iconostasis, on a tetrapod by the candle stand, in the apse seated on His mother's lap, in the icon of the Last Supper above the Royal Doors, in the icons of Him that I have in my house, in the icon of Him that I have in my wallet...
 

Jos

Well-Known Member
IDK, maybe because they would be crazy at best, dangerous at worst, or even a combination of both.
So you think they might be hallucinating or delusional? Didn't Jesus supposedly reveal Himself to people in the Bible in bodily form?
 

Jos

Well-Known Member
Sure, I was just in church this past Friday (Orthodox Holy Friday) and there was the icon of Him being laid in the tomb. And every time I'm in church there's His icon on the iconostasis, on a tetrapod by the candle stand, in the apse seated on His mother's lap, in the icon of the Last Supper above the Royal Doors, in the icons of Him that I have in my house, in the icon of Him that I have in my wallet...
I'm talking about the real person not a statue or painting or icon or something.
 

Shiranui117

Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
Premium Member
I'm talking about the real person not a statue or painting or icon or something.
Icons make that which is depicted truly present; they're not mere art pieces. But I sense you mean something a little different. In that case, I receive His true Body and Blood every Sunday in the Eucharist.
 

Jos

Well-Known Member
Yes, before He ascended. That's the key point.
So He doesn't that anymore? If not, how do you He doesn't do it anymore and why shouldn't we trust those who have claimed to have seen Him in bodily form since His ascension?
Icons make that which is depicted truly present; they're not mere art pieces. But I sense you mean something a little different. In that case, I receive His true Body and Blood every Sunday in the Eucharist.
Yes I mean something different... like actually seeing His body in front of you like one sees another human being standing in front of them, not what you claim to be "His true Body and Blood" since other Christians disagree on that being Him as well.
 

Shiranui117

Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
Premium Member
So He doesn't that anymore? If not, how do you He doesn't do it anymore and why shouldn't we trust those who have claimed to have seen Him in bodily form since His ascension?
Why should I trust them? Who are these people? What has their spiritual life been like? Are they mentally healthy? There have been enough charlatans starting up new fringe sects. I don't trust anyone who claims to have suddenly had a sudden revelation from Heaven or a personal visit from Christ that caused them to "rediscover the true Christianity" or whatever snake-oil they're selling. Not David Koresh, not Rael, not Charles Manson, not Jim Jones, not Apollo Carreón Quiboloy, none of them.

Christ didn't even descend in the flesh to St. Paul on the road to Damascus. If He didn't even physically appear before St. Paul, but only appeared in a vision, why in the world would Christ appear in the flesh to some other rando? Christ said the following in John 14:
“Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also. 4 And where I go you know, and the way you know.”

5 Thomas said to Him, “Lord, we do not know where You are going, and how can we know the way?”
...
15 “If you love Me, keep My commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.

And later in John 16:
5 “But now I go away to Him who sent Me, and none of you asks Me, ‘Where are You going?’ 6 But because I have said these things to you, sorrow has filled your heart. 7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you. 8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 of sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10 of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; 11 of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.

12 “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. 14 He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you. 15 All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you.​

Christ no longer physically walks among us, nor does He appear to us as He did to the Apostles in the 40 days following His Resurrection. Rather, He gives us the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit brings to us what is said by the Father and the Son.

Yes I mean something different... like actually seeing His body in front of you like one sees another human being standing in front of them, not what you claim to be "His true Body and Blood" since other Christians disagree on that being Him as well.
For 1500 years it was the unanimous opinion of Christians that the Eucharist is truly the Body and Blood of Christ. Not even Martin Luther or the early Anglicans disavowed that, though quibble as they might with the Roman attempt to explain this mystery. For 75% of Christian history, all Christians believed that the Eucharist is the Body and Blood of Christ. And for the past 500 years, 75% or more of all Christians the world over have continued to hold to the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist.
 

Jos

Well-Known Member
Why should I trust them? Who are these people? What has their spiritual life been like? Are they mentally healthy? There have been enough charlatans starting up new fringe sects. I don't trust anyone who claims to have suddenly had a sudden revelation from Heaven or a personal visit from Christ that caused them to "rediscover the true Christianity" or whatever snake-oil they're selling. Not David Koresh, not Rael, not Charles Manson, not Jim Jones, not Apollo Carreón Quiboloy, none of them.
If God is all-powerful can't He reveal Himself to anyone He wants to in any form He wants to?
Christ didn't even descend in the flesh to St. Paul on the road to Damascus. If He didn't even physically appear before St. Paul, but only appeared in a vision, why in the world would Christ appear in the flesh to some other rando?
Other Christians say the opposite but whatever.
For 1500 years it was the unanimous opinion of Christians that the Eucharist is truly the Body and Blood of Christ. Not even Martin Luther or the early Anglicans disavowed that, though quibble as they might with the Roman attempt to explain this mystery. For 75% of Christian history, all Christians believed that the Eucharist is the Body and Blood of Christ. And for the past 500 years, 75% or more of all Christians the world over have continued to hold to the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist.
Well some of the ones I know see that as blasphemy but again, I guess we can never know who's really right.
 

Shiranui117

Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
Premium Member
If God is all-powerful can't He reveal Himself to anyone He wants to in any form He wants to?
And that's just it: Christ doesn't want to come down in the flesh until it is time for Him to raise the dead, defeat Satan and death for all eternity, and usher in the renewal of all creation and call all mankind to the Last Judgement.

Other Christians say the opposite but whatever.
And there are people who say the Earth is flat.

Well some of the ones I know see that as blasphemy but again, I guess we can never know who's really right.
It's quite simple: Go back to the beginning and see what was believed and practiced by the first and second generations of Christians.
 

Jos

Well-Known Member
And that's just it: Christ doesn't want to come down in the flesh until it is time for Him to raise the dead, defeat Satan and death for all eternity, and usher in the renewal of all creation and call all mankind to the Last Judgement.
Right but you still can't rule out the possibility that other people actually saw Jesus since God can supposedly reveal Himself to anyone He wants to in any form.
And there are people who say the Earth is flat.
It's quite simple: Go back to the beginning and see what was believed and practiced by the first and second generations of Christians.
Well everyone always says "God or the Bible told them x,y,z" so I guess we'll never know who's right.
 

Shiranui117

Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
Premium Member
Right but you still can't rule out the possibility that other people actually saw Jesus since God can supposedly reveal Himself to anyone He wants to in any form.
I can take the words of Christ and the Bible and the witness of those who were chosen by the Apostles to succeed them in their role as leaders of the Church. There is no reason at all to believe that Jesus would come back to Earth in the flesh outside of the Second Coming. Nowhere did He say that He would do this, nor did He appear in the flesh during some of the most critical formative years of the Church. If He didn't do it during some of the biggest crises ever faced by the Church, there's no reason to believe He would appear in the flesh for one random individual. There is a reason it's called the Second Coming of Christ and not the Third, Fourth, Twentieth or Fifty Thousand Six Hundred and Forty-Seventh Coming.

Well everyone always says "God or the Bible told them x,y,z" so I guess we'll never know who's right.
Not everyone has a direct and unbroken line of teaching going all the way back to the Apostles. We can read the writings of those who were instructed directly by the Apostles, as well as the people were students of the students of the Apostles, and compare what teaching they inherited to what every other Christian group following them claims.
 

sugnim

Member
Yes. In the faces of those most shunned: the poor, the homeless, the ill, the prisoner, the social outcast, the criminal...anyone cast aside as a lesser human being deserving of less care. In their faces and stories, I see Jesus.
 

Jos

Well-Known Member
Yes. In the faces of those most shunned: the poor, the homeless, the ill, the prisoner, the social outcast, the criminal...anyone cast aside as a lesser human being deserving of less care. In their faces and stories, I see Jesus.
So everyone deserves love no matter what bad thing they've done? Even if they kill or sexually assault someone else?
 

sugnim

Member
Well, now you're asking 2 different questions, aren't you? Your original was whether violent criminals are worthy of love. But now your question is whether violent criminals are worthy of forgiveness. I'll give a more detailed answer to your first question, since that's where you started.

All people are worthy of love, even violent criminals like murderers and sexual assailants. There are many reasons why this is true. Here are just a few brief examples.

1. If you deny love to criminal, perhaps you become no better than the criminal. You inflict pain upon another human being, just as the violent criminal did. It would be hypocritical to condemn someone for committing a hateful act while you yourself are committing the hateful act of withholding love.
2. Some violent criminals act the way they do because they have severe mental illness. Sociopaths have problems with their brains that they cannot control. This does not excuse their behavior, but neither does it render them unworthy of love and kindness. One way to show love to such a sociopath is to remove them from the general society so that they cannot commit the violent acts they are prone to committing, thereby giving them a chance to do good things and contribute to society through work or psychological research.
3. Some people commit violent acts because no love has been shown to them. For example, some people who have had traumatic childhoods may reenact the violent events of which they have been a victim because that is the only way they know how to behave in certain situations. Again, this does not excuse their behavior, but neither does it make them unworthy of love and kindness. In fact, it may render such a person more worthy of love and kindness, to show them that there is a better way of being in the world. Such people may need to be removed from society and shown intense love and kindness in the way that people with severe illnesses are placed in intensive medical care facilities.
 

Jos

Well-Known Member
Well, now you're asking 2 different questions, aren't you? Your original was whether violent criminals are worthy of love. But now your question is whether violent criminals are worthy of forgiveness. I'll give a more detailed answer to your first question, since that's where you started.

All people are worthy of love, even violent criminals like murderers and sexual assailants. There are many reasons why this is true. Here are just a few brief examples.

1. If you deny love to criminal, perhaps you become no better than the criminal. You inflict pain upon another human being, just as the violent criminal did. It would be hypocritical to condemn someone for committing a hateful act while you yourself are committing the hateful act of withholding love.
2. Some violent criminals act the way they do because they have severe mental illness. Sociopaths have problems with their brains that they cannot control. This does not excuse their behavior, but neither does it render them unworthy of love and kindness. One way to show love to such a sociopath is to remove them from the general society so that they cannot commit the violent acts they are prone to committing, thereby giving them a chance to do good things and contribute to society through work or psychological research.
3. Some people commit violent acts because no love has been shown to them. For example, some people who have had traumatic childhoods may reenact the violent events of which they have been a victim because that is the only way they know how to behave in certain situations. Again, this does not excuse their behavior, but neither does it make them unworthy of love and kindness. In fact, it may render such a person more worthy of love and kindness, to show them that there is a better way of being in the world. Such people may need to be removed from society and shown intense love and kindness in the way that people with severe illnesses are placed in intensive medical care facilities.
Would you still believe these things if a criminal committed a violent crime against you or someone you loved?
 

sugnim

Member
I would and I do.

Recognizing that all people are worthy of love is not always easy. But then, there are many worthwhile things that are not always easy. Fortunately, most places have a justice system that can help families of victims deal with such difficult tasks. It would be too much to ask the family member of most victims to provide love and care for the assailants who harmed their family members. But, as a society, we all pitch in through taxes or other ways, to establish a justice system that theoretically should provide the care that violent criminals need. It doesn't always work this way, and many of our prisons and reform systems are highly injurious to those they serve. However, I still believe it is true that all beings are worthy of love, even violent criminals, and even violent criminals who have harmed my family members.
 
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