Have them make for me a tabernacle...

[dybmh]

You can shoot a PM over to Rabbi O and he can give you the Reform understanding. I think we are very lucky to have two rabbis in the forum. My *guess* is that he would say it's not mystical, but simply poetic, as I myself suggested to you.

How much of the Reform approach to worship is poetic as opposed to devotional?

I propose that almost all of it is poetic, and very little of it is devotional.

Does a person need a community or a synagogue or a "Tabernacle" in order to make poetic gestures towards God?

No. They don't. That's the point I've been trying to make. I used the word hollow, but, it's the same mechanism, isn't it? Originally I offered the example of saying Kaddish, but it's the same for turning around during L'cha Dodi.

When you described worship it was devotional?

But the Reform approach to worship is poetic.

If the purpose is devotion, but the ritual avoids this by making it poetry, then a modern young person will likely detect this mismatch and identify it as hollow or uneeded. I think this is a good thing.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

How much of the Reform approach to worship is poetic as opposed to devotional?

I propose that almost all of it is poetic, and very little of it is devotional.

Does a person need a community or a synagogue or a "Tabernacle" in order to make poetic gestures towards God?

No. They don't. That's the point I've been trying to make. I used the word hollow, but, it's the same mechanism, isn't it? Originally I offered the example of saying Kaddish, but it's the same for turning around during L'cha Dodi.

When you described worship it was devotional?

But the Reform approach to worship is poetic.

If the purpose is devotion, but the ritual avoids this by making it poetry, then a modern young person will likely detect this mismatch and identify it as hollow or uneeded. I think this is a good thing.

Devotional simply means what is used for religious worship. The poetic is used for devotional purposes all the time. It's not an either / or thing. I think you have a serious serious problem understanding the use of the poetic within the devotional, and until you have a breakthrough, I really can't continue the discussion with you.

It's not just the Reform, you know. I don't think the Conservatives or the Orthodox believe that the Shabbos Queen is a literal spirit that walks through the door either. Yet all of them will rise and greet the bride when they sing that particular verse of the Lecha Dodi. It is not the literal spirit of Shabbos, some kind of ghost or heavenly being, but the figurative spirit of Shabbos that we greet. IT is a particular form of figurative language called personification. The Shabbos Queen is a personified entity, according to the Orthodox website Aish.com

 

[dybmh]

Devotional simply means what is used for religious worship. The poetic is used for devotional purposes all the time. It's not an either / or thing. I think you have a serious serious problem understanding the use of the poetic within the devotional, and until you have a breakthrough, I really can't continue the discussion with you.

It's not just the Reform, you know. I don't think the Conservatives or the Orthodox believe that the Shabbos Queen is a literal spirit that walks through the door either. Yet all of them will rise and greet the bride when they sing that particular verse of the Lecha Dodi. It is not the literal spirit of Shabbos, some kind of ghost or heavenly being, but the figurative spirit of Shabbos that we greet. IT is a particular form of figurative language called personification. The Shabbos Queen is a personified entity, according to the Orthodox website Aish.com

Ignoring the personal judgement against me; This is what I'm hearing from you.

I run into so many many young people who feel no need to attend a house of worship.

If you want to understand why, I think I can help.

If you are happy with the status quo, or have it figured out, why did you start this thread?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Ignoring the personal judgement against me; This is what I'm hearing from you.



If you want to understand why, I think I can help.

If you are happy with the status quo, or have it figured out, why did you start this thread?

I began this thread to give an insight to the verse where God tells Moses to have the Israelites make him a sanctuary, "that I might dwell among them."

 

[dybmh]

I began this thread to give an insight to the verse where God tells Moses to have the Israelites make him a sanctuary, "that I might dwell among them."

Is this the insight you wanted to give? ( see below )

My dear friends, it makes a difference to go to a house of God, and worship him there, with a faith community. It just does.

Is this what you wanted to debate? Or did you want to make a speech from a virtual pulpit?

If you posted this in a debate forum in order to debate it, I offer Tehillim 138, specifically verse 6.

כִּ֚י רָ֣ם יְ֖הֹוָה וְשָׁפָ֣ל יִרְאֶ֑ה וְגָבֹ֖הַּ מִמֶּרְחָ֥ק יְיֵדָֽע
For the Lord is high but He sees the lowly, and He knows the haughty from afar.

According to this, the more important aspect is not to be arrogant. Even if one is in the House of G-d, as you claim, if they are "Haughty" or "Proud" ( גבה ), like someone who puts themselves on a pulpit to make a speech, G-d does not dwell there. Here is the dictionary entry from sefaria ( emphasis mine ).

גבהּ to be high.
— Qal - גָּבַהּ 1 was high, was tall, was lofty; 2 was exalted; 3 was haughty.
— Niph. - נִגְבַּהּ he rose.
— Hiph. - הִגְבִּיהּ he made high, raised, lifted.
— Hoph. - הֻגְבַּהּ was made high, was raised, was lifted.
— Hith. - הִתֽגַּבַּהּ he lifted himself, exalted himself.


So, if this House of God, if the community or leaders of the community you are speaking of are "haughty", then it doesn't matter where they choose to be devotional, or worship. It doesn't matter if they are in a House of G-d. G-d will know them from a far, not dwell among them, according to Tehillim 138.

I propose that not being arrogant, not putting oneself on a pulpit, is more important than being in a "House of God". Much more important. A Tabernacle / House of God is worthless without humility if the purpose is for G-d to "dwell" among them/us..

 

[dybmh]

I began this thread to give an insight to the verse where God tells Moses to have the Israelites make him a sanctuary, "that I might dwell among them."

If I recall, G-d's aspect which "dwells" is included in the prayer services twice: In the Amidah and in Aleinu.

It appears that both of those elements are missing from the Reform Siddur that your congregation chose. Did you know that? From Aleinu, it looks the words are literally missing or have been removed. And there is no Amidah, from what I can tell, in the Reform Siddur. Because of this, I propose that G-d's dwelling is not at all valued in Reform Judaism. Reform Judaism is about different things. Not better, not worse... just different.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Is this the insight you wanted to give? ( see below )



Is this what you wanted to debate? Or did you want to make a speech from a virtual pulpit?

If you posted this in a debate forum in order to debate it, I offer Tehillim 138, specifically verse 6.

כִּ֚י רָ֣ם יְ֖הֹוָה וְשָׁפָ֣ל יִרְאֶ֑ה וְגָבֹ֖הַּ מִמֶּרְחָ֥ק יְיֵדָֽע
For the Lord is high but He sees the lowly, and He knows the haughty from afar.

According to this, the more important aspect is not to be arrogant. Even if one is in the House of G-d, as you claim, if they are "Haughty" or "Proud" ( גבה ), like someone who puts themselves on a pulpit to make a speech, G-d does not dwell there. Here is the dictionary entry from sefaria ( emphasis mine ).

גבהּ to be high.
— Qal - גָּבַהּ 1 was high, was tall, was lofty; 2 was exalted; 3 was haughty.
— Niph. - נִגְבַּהּ he rose.
— Hiph. - הִגְבִּיהּ he made high, raised, lifted.
— Hoph. - הֻגְבַּהּ was made high, was raised, was lifted.
— Hith. - הִתֽגַּבַּהּ he lifted himself, exalted himself.


So, if this House of God, if the community or leaders of the community you are speaking of are "haughty", then it doesn't matter where they choose to be devotional, or worship. It doesn't matter if they are in a House of G-d. G-d will know them from a far, not dwell among them, according to Tehillim 138.

I propose that not being arrogant, not putting oneself on a pulpit, is more important than being in a "House of God". Much more important. A Tabernacle / House of God is worthless without humility if the purpose is for G-d to "dwell" among them/us..

The point I wanted to make about the purpose of worshiping in a sanctuary is in my OP. I have no need to repeat it.

I do believe you are simply looking to nit pick, and I'm not going to reward you.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

If I recall, G-d's aspect which "dwells" is included in the prayer services twice: In the Amidah and in Aleinu.

It appears that both of those elements are missing from the Reform Siddur that your congregation chose. Did you know that? From Aleinu, it looks the words are literally missing or have been removed. And there is no Amidah, from what I can tell, in the Reform Siddur. Because of this, I propose that G-d's dwelling is not at all valued in Reform Judaism. Reform Judaism is about different things. Not better, not worse... just different.

We do the Amidah and the Aleinu every Shabbat.

 

[dybmh]

The point I wanted to make about the purpose of worshiping in a sanctuary is in my OP. I have no need to repeat it.

I do believe you are simply looking to nit pick, and I'm not going to reward you.

The point I'm making is, people don't go to a Reform synagogue to worship, and, the same has been my experience in Conservative synagogues. They also are not interested in worship at all.

Because of this, the verse that was brought regarding "dwelling" is not a very convincing/compelling reason to worship in a sanctuary for a large group of modern American Jewish people.

Further, the concept of G-d dwelling is a very high-level complicated subject. Reform congregations, Conservative congregations, and possibly Orthodox congregations simply don't "go there". In order for a person to find people who are interested in making a dwelling place for G-d in their sanctuary they would need to go to Chassidic or Ultra-Orthodox congregations which are the minority in America.

Moving outside of Judaism, I don't think that any of the other Abrahamic religions have something comparable to the Shechinah ( G-d's aspect which is capable of dwelling among us ). The closest is the Holy Spirit, but that's the Ruach HaKodesh, not the Shechinah. Maybe someone can inform me about it? I don't know.

Now, regarding this idea of nit-picking: the OP made a claim: see below:

My dear friends, it makes a difference to go to a house of God, and worship him there, with a faith community. It just does.

And the evidence supporting this claim is: "It just does"? I think that's what was said? Or perhaps the evidence is in Shemos/Exodus 25:8? The OP says it's "obvious"?

It's not obvious, that's not nitpicking, it's honest critical analysis. The OP makes a claim and doesn't support it. The OP brings a verse for evidence, I brought a verse refuting it. That's not nit-picking, it's debate.

I think the OP is wrong; you think it's right. That shouldn't be a problem unless there is no other evidence to support the claim. If so, I rest my case. The OP is flawed, the argument is weak.

The simple truth is this: In Judaism, a sanctuary is not needed for G-d to dwell. All it takes is two people learning Torah L'shaim shamayim ( for the sake of heaven ). Further, in Judaism, who a person congregates with is more important than where they congregate. References available on request.

We do the Amidah and the Aleinu every Shabbat.

Both are edited, reduced, and incomplete. The parts about G-d dwelling are omitted.

Why is this important? It's important because it renders the verse 25:8 from the OP irrelevant to a Reform congregation. The people don't seem to care about whether or where G-d is dwelling. And the same is true for Conservative congregations in my experience. I don't know about Orthodox, because I skipped over that and went to Chabad. But the OP does not make any qualifications about to whom the verse is supposed to be relevant, and claims it's obvious.

No, it's not obvious. And the sanctuary is not a dwelling for G-d if the clergy and congregants are arrogant and have contempt for Torah in word and in deed. And that is what I am seeing ( at least from the clergy ) in the Reform and Conservative movement. Contempt for Torah, and a desire to be secular. So really, the evidence in the OP is valid for a small subset of Jewish people, that's all. The OP is speaking to a minority. And that makes it a weak argument.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

The point I'm making is, people don't go to a Reform synagogue to worship, and, the same has been my experience in Conservative synagogues. They also are not interested in worship at all.

I would be insulted, but the truth is that the emotion I am feeling is pity for your incredible ignorance, and the chutzpah you show suggesting that only the Orthodox worship.

I read your post very carefully, and you are not swaying me one tiny bit. You are horribly bigoted, sir. Personally, I do not agree with every Reform, i.e. the removal of references to the Temple from the Amidah, but I would never scorn them or defame them the way that you do. I find that each branch of Judaism has its strengths and weaknesses. I dwell on the positive aspects of each. It makes for a much happier and functional me.

And quite honestly, we Jews get enough trouble from non-Jews. We don't need infighting over trivial stuff.

 

[dybmh]

I would be insulted, but the truth is that the emotion I am feeling is pity for your incredible ignorance, and the chutzpah you show suggesting that only the Orthodox worship.

That's not what I said, or what I meant.

I read your post very carefully, and you are not swaying me one tiny bit. You are horribly bigoted, sir. Personally, I do not agree with every Reform, i.e. the removal of references to the Temple from the Amidah, but I would never scorn them or defame them the way that you do. I find that each branch of Judaism has its strengths and weaknesses. I dwell on the positive aspects of each. It makes for a much happier and functional me.

So no other evidence in support of the claim in the OP, then?

And quite honestly, we Jews get enough trouble from non-Jews. We don't need infighting over trivial stuff.

I am simply talking about the claim made in the OP. If it's trivial, then, so is the OP.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

That's not what I said, or what I meant.

Actually it *is* what you said. It may not have been what you meant. You are welcome to clarify. Here is the quote of what you said:

The point I'm making is, people don't go to a Reform synagogue to worship, and, the same has been my experience in Conservative synagogues. They also are not interested in worship at all.

 

[dybmh]

Actually it *is* what you said.

Here's what you said that I suggested...

I would be insulted, but the truth is that the emotion I am feeling is pity for your incredible ignorance, and the chutzpah you show suggesting that only the Orthodox worship.

I didn't suggest that "only the Orthodox worship".

The point I'm making is, people don't go to a Reform synagogue to worship, and, the same has been my experience in Conservative synagogues. They also are not interested in worship at all.

It's not that they "don't worship". I didn't say that, nor did I suggest it.

This thread is about the sanctuary. What I said is, they don't go to a synagogue to worship, and they aren't interested in worship at all. That's what I said.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Here's what you said that I suggested...



I didn't suggest that "only the Orthodox worship".



It's not that they "don't worship". I didn't say that, nor did I suggest it.

This thread is about the sanctuary. What I said is, they don't go to a synagogue to worship, and they aren't interested in worship at all. That's what I said.

IOW you say of the Reform and Conservative, "They don't go there for worship.... They are not interested in worship." How in the world does that not mean that you think only the Orthodox worship?

Now I've asked you to clarify if there has been a misunderstanding. I ask that again. Obviously your original wording is causing confusion. Please tell me what you actually believe, but using different words. My objective here is not to "win" an argument. It's to understand you and have an enjoyable discussion with you.