1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured Have them make for me a tabernacle...

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by IndigoChild5559, Jan 7, 2020.

  1. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2018
    Messages:
    6,718
    Ratings:
    +3,146
    Religion:
    Judaism
    I run into so many many young people who feel no need to attend a house of worship. God is everywhere, they tell me. They don't need to go to a church to be with him. (At least that is one of a great many reasons they give for not attending.)

    I remember my Rabbi replying to this by quoting some sage or other, "Yes, God is everywhere, and is everywhere forgotten."

    Human beings have a problem with sameness. After a while,we begin to tune it out, to take it for granted. It stops affecting us. It is true that God is everywhere. But we are unable to sustain that sense of teh sacredness of his presence everywhere. Who really thinks of God when they are changing the baby's diaper or working on their car or pour over the books an hour after the office has closed? A Zen master perhaps, after years of cultivation. But certainly not the average Joe.

    Sometimes Joe will have moments where the sense of the sacred will come crashing through, but he can never control that.

    No, for Joe Sixpack to experience a sense of the sacred on anything like a regular basis, he has to psychologically set a portion of time or space or whatever apart for God, and designate it as sacred by means of treating it differently.

    God understands this psychology. Indeed, God allowed it to evolve in us and said, It is good. And so of course God himself works with it. Oh of course, there's nothing wrong with becoming the sort of zen master than can experience the sacred in washing dishes. I'm simply saying that God in his wisdom gave instructions for the other 99%.

    And so the Torah gives commands for setting apart from the profane, for making of sacred time, sacred places, sacred objects, even sacred people.

    Getting back to my Rabbi's remark, "God is everyone, and is everywhere forgotten..." God's answer is, "And let them make Me a sanctuary, that I may dwell among them." Exodus 25:8 Obviously God already dwelt among us. It doesn't mean that he wasn't already there. It means that we would EXPERIENCE him as being there in a way that we otherwise would not.

    My dear friends, it makes a difference to go to a house of God, and worship him there, with a faith community. It just does. It is our psychology. It is how our brains work. You can deny it. You can say that God doesn't need you there (and you would be right). But YOU need it. It is just as important for you to have a Sanctuary to worship God as it was for the ancient Israelites. You are not so different as you let yourself believe.

    I rejoiced when they said unto me: 'Let us go unto the house of the LORD. Psalm 122:1
     
    • Like Like x 3
    • Winner Winner x 1
  2. pearl

    pearl Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2005
    Messages:
    6,212
    Ratings:
    +3,168
    Religion:
    Catholic
    When we enter a house of worship we cross a threshold from the profane to the sacred where worlds collide. But that's not to say that we cannot set aside our own 'sacred space', but not in place of.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  3. Good-Ole-Rebel

    Good-Ole-Rebel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2019
    Messages:
    2,611
    Ratings:
    +302
    Religion:
    Christian
    This is especially true of the Christian who has been given spiritual gifts of the Holy Spirit. There is a ministry that takes place from God to the believers through other believers who have certain gifts. To sever oneself from that fellowship and ministry, really hinders ones growth.

    Good-Ole-Rebel
     
  4. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2019
    Messages:
    9,368
    Ratings:
    +6,577
    Religion:
    Judaism
    I hear this too, and I agree. To me this is a good sign; it means that young people are becoming more spiritual and less religious. If these young people chose to become part of a community, I think the community benefits from having more spiritual people included.
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  5. ideogenous_mover

    ideogenous_mover Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2014
    Messages:
    3,333
    Ratings:
    +947
    Religion:
    Agnostic with a Theistic bent, toward some form of Dualism
    Seeing as you put this in the debate section, I suppose I have to contest it... or not really, I actually don't really care how people worship. My northerly european ancestors were often described by the romans as worshiping outdoors, I think. Outdoor stone formations, giant trees, and probably certain lakes or hills were their 'church like areas.'

    I personally feel far, far more in touch with spirituality when in nature, letting my senses interact with special moments out there. I hiked out through the middle of a marsh at dawn last spring, everything was covered in a perfect coat of crystalline frost. You could hear a pin drop. Suddenly I beheld the sun, it was a mesmerizing dull-red orange ball, casting a perfect glowing red presence upon all the silent frost, from the cattails to the willows. The world became a preacher with no words, as the words of a humans preacher could only be profane in such a moment

    Other times I've been mesmerized by singing packs of wolves, or the aurora borealis, or waterfalls. Simple sunsets and sunrises coming in and out of lakes. Encounters with wild animals, meteor showers, walks beneath magical moons. In the moments with those things, is when my world feels larger, and the closest to a spiritual presence. I never got that feeling in a building of any kind. Our culture is influenced in modern times by religions that do their thing in buildings, but that doesn't have to really be the rule does it
     
    #5 ideogenous_mover, Jan 7, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2020
  6. stvdv

    stvdv Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2018
    Messages:
    13,788
    Ratings:
    +8,132
    Religion:
    Sanathana Dharma [The Eternal Religion]
    Especially in Churches claiming "my way is the highway for all; all other ways lead to Hell"

    There I feel more criticized, attacked, judged, crucified, been send to Hell (no return) then everywhere else.
     
  7. Audie

    Audie Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2018
    Messages:
    19,263
    Ratings:
    +9,820
    Religion:
    None
    Why is it "given gifts OF the holy spirit" or "used OF god",
    instead of "used BY"?
     
  8. Audie

    Audie Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2018
    Messages:
    19,263
    Ratings:
    +9,820
    Religion:
    None
    You would not be a follower of St Augustine, then! I felt so
    sad for him, reading his Confessions, where he scolded himself
    for enjoying the glory of nature.

    Not ever knowing what "spiritual" even is supposed to mean,
    I do not consider myself a spiritual person, certainly not
    religious.

    But the things you describe, yes, that is what I so love to do.
    Here in HK it can be hard to get serenity in nature,but
    even here, even in Central, you may look up and see our
    black kites high overhead, reminding you.

    I kind of feel sorry for those who find "god" in nature,as
    to me, they are interposing themselves, their own fictional
    construct between themselves and the nature they are trying to
    enjoy. I guess they still see it, but through a semi transparent
    mirror.
     
  9. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Shrugs. I tried.

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2014
    Messages:
    36,847
    Ratings:
    +12,951
    Religion:
    Animist

    I saw it like this when I went to church: Mathew 18: 19-21

    …19 Again, I tell you truly that if two of you on the earth agree about anything you ask for, it will be done for you by My Father in heaven. 20 For where two or three gather together in My name, there am I with them.” 21 Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, “Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother who sins against me? Up to seven times?”…

    If more than one person doesn't come together, it would make sense jesus wouldn't be present given what's taught about the love of god is not only for oneself but specifically for each other 1 Corinthians 8:12

    …11 So this weak brother, for whom Christ died, is destroyed by your knowledge. 12 By sinning against your brothers in this way and wounding their weak conscience, you sin against Christ. 13 Therefore, if what I eat causes my brother to stumble, I will never eat meat again, so that I will not cause him to stumble.…

    So, I wonder if people actually have christ in their heart or faith in christ until they come together in his name thereby being in his "real presence" ideally by communion.

    But, well, not everyone can get to a church. Even two people would do but then... that's my interpretation of it.
     
  10. Audie

    Audie Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2018
    Messages:
    19,263
    Ratings:
    +9,820
    Religion:
    None
    How do you interpret this?

    When you pray, you shall not be as the hypocrites, for. they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and in the. corners of the streets, that they may be seen by men.

    But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy
    closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray
    to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father
    which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.
     
  11. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Shrugs. I tried.

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2014
    Messages:
    36,847
    Ratings:
    +12,951
    Religion:
    Animist
    When you pray, you shall not be as the hypocrites, for. they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and in the. corners of the streets, that they may be seen by men.

    But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy
    closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray
    to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father
    which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

    (The italics)

    The first part, church isn't about hypocrites etc. It's joining together to make christ present. All of that has nothing to do with christ and people joining in his name not the hypocrites.

    Unless "when come together in his name makes christ present" and "if you do to others, you do to me" contradicts this, I really don't know. It's not saying don't pray alone, it's saying that christianity isn't a lone-man's religion.
     
  12. Jeremiah Ames

    Jeremiah Ames Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2017
    Messages:
    2,918
    Ratings:
    +1,586
    Religion:
    Areligious Christian
    I see the typical person as having, lets say, 10 units of space in their mind.
    I see religion as being the opposite of God. And opposites don’t mix.
    So for every unit of a person’s mind devoted to religion is 1 less unit available for God.

    Joshua 1:9 Have not I commanded thee? Be strong and of a good courage; be not afraid, neither be thou dismayed: for the LORD thy God is with thee whithersoever thou goest.

    Deuteronomy 31:6 Be strong and of a good courage, fear not, nor be afraid of them: for the LORD thy God, he it is that doth go with thee; he will not fail thee, nor forsake thee.

    Isaiah 41:10 Fear thou not; for I am with thee

    Zephaniah 3:17 The LORD thy God in the midst of thee is mighty; he will save, he will rejoice over thee with joy; he will rest in his love, he will joy over thee with singing.

    Perhaps the “young people” know something? What if religion is a man made device to derail people from finding the Lord? Just asking.
     
  13. ideogenous_mover

    ideogenous_mover Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2014
    Messages:
    3,333
    Ratings:
    +947
    Religion:
    Agnostic with a Theistic bent, toward some form of Dualism
    wow I'll have to read where he talked about that
     
  14. Good-Ole-Rebel

    Good-Ole-Rebel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2019
    Messages:
    2,611
    Ratings:
    +302
    Religion:
    Christian
    The Christian is given gifts of the Holy Spirit, as it is from the Holy Spirit. The Christian is used of God, as it is the Spirit of God in the Christian that is doing the ministering.

    Good-Ole-Rebel
     
  15. Audie

    Audie Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2018
    Messages:
    19,263
    Ratings:
    +9,820
    Religion:
    None
    Excuse me if you are differently abled
    but you did not answer.
     
  16. Audie

    Audie Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2018
    Messages:
    19,263
    Ratings:
    +9,820
    Religion:
    None
    An interesting and deeply troubled man
     
  17. Good-Ole-Rebel

    Good-Ole-Rebel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2019
    Messages:
    2,611
    Ratings:
    +302
    Religion:
    Christian
    I believe I did. Explain why not.

    Good-Ole-Rebel
     
  18. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2018
    Messages:
    6,718
    Ratings:
    +3,146
    Religion:
    Judaism
    I don't buy into the idea that "spiritual not religious" is a better thing. I always wonder if "spiritual" doesn't mean just more convenient.
     
  19. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2019
    Messages:
    9,368
    Ratings:
    +6,577
    Religion:
    Judaism
    I guess it depends on the definition of religious. What does religious mean to you?
     
  20. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2018
    Messages:
    6,718
    Ratings:
    +3,146
    Religion:
    Judaism
    I appreciate the fact that you don't fit into the more western mold, and Id like to say that this is okay. I've been very close in my time to Lakota traditionalists, so I am not entirely ignorant of what you are talking about, nor unappreciative. I wish I knew more about your specific walk so that I could speak to it directly.

    However, I'd like to say that even in this sort of view, there is still more of what I'm calling the activation of the sacred than you are giving credit to. The Lakota that I knew had definite sacred rituals that they used. They did have especially sacred places such as the Black Hills.

    Again, this is basic human psychology. It is true across the board, even where spirituality may vary from religion to religion.
     
    • Like Like x 1
Loading...