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Have the end times arrived?

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Does the Bible fail, or have we not yet considered or admitted that we have not yet reached the capacity to understand spiritual guidance?

Regards Tony


The Bible fails. At least when it comes to prophesy. You cannot find one prophecy from the Bible with a reasonable time limit that has not failed. And a prophecy without a time limit is also a failed prophecy.

What good is a prophecy is if it does not accurately predict something? Why rely on them? The Kool-Aid drinkers really do not need prophecy. For the unconvinced they only convince those that cannot reason rationally and are just as apt to jump to another religion with pretty promises.

When you make the claim "we have prophecies" and a person that can reason rationally can see why they obviously fail they one harm your cause. They do not help it.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
So you agree that they are worthless. They can only convince those that want to believe. There is no "truth" in them.
Prophecies are worthless to convince most people but they will convince those people who want to know the truth and are willing to honestly look at how the prophecies were fulfilled.

Some people believe because they want to believe in spite of the evidence and some people believe because of the evidence.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
I was only trying to make a point, that no matter how clear the prophecies are people who want to deny the plain meaning will deny it. Those prophecies in John did not fail since Jesus kept His promise and never returned to this world. A failed prophecy is a prophecy that did not happen as it is written it will happen. Those prophecies in John would only be failed prophecies if Jesus showed up.

I do not see any failed prophecies since they have all been fulfilled, as has been clearly demonstrated in this book:

William Sears, Thief in the Night
No, no no. You have to stop this nonsense. You are at best projecting. You are the one what "wants to believe". Do not make that error when it comes to others. You could not even defend you weak prophecies and you start a post with an obvious case of projection.

And you know that what you said about your book was false. That is shown by the fact that you did not choose a prophecy from it.

Instead of trying to fail on multiple levels why not focus on one at a time?
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Prophecies are worthless to convince most people but they will convince those people who want to know the truth and are willing to honestly look at how the prophecies were fulfilled.

Some people believe because they want to believe in spite of the evidence and some people believe because of the evidence.
That is false. Please do not make false claims about others. Why your prophecies fail has been explained to you. I am a bit disappointed in you right now.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
You are the one what "wants to believe".
Just ask my husband if I want to believe. Every time we get in a discussion about God he asks me why I don't become an atheist and be done with it. I want to believe in God like I want a hole in the head. I only believe because of the evidence, period.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The Bible fails. At least when it comes to prophesy. You cannot find one prophecy from the Bible with a reasonable time limit that has not failed. And a prophecy without a time limit is also a failed prophecy.

What good is a prophecy is if it does not accurately predict something? Why rely on them? The Kool-Aid drinkers really do not need prophecy. For the unconvinced they only convince those that cannot reason rationally and are just as apt to jump to another religion with pretty promises.

When you make the claim "we have prophecies" and a person that can reason rationally can see why they obviously fail they one harm your cause. They do not help it.

Well I see time prophecies did not fail and were fulfilled, so my previous suggestion stands, is it our capacity that prevents us considering them in the light they were given, or is it just luck, or is it a gift?

For instance if a prophecy is interpreted to say that in the year 1844 Christ will return and then another prophecy says that a message will be given that lasts 1260 years and both events happen in the same year and in that year a new message is proclaimed, is this a failed prophecy, or is it our failure not to look further?

Regards Tony
 
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Trailblazer

Veteran Member
That is false. Please do not make false claims about others. Why your prophecies fail has been explained to you. I am a bit disappointed in you right now.
What I said is absolutely true and I see it every day on this forum. Most people only believe what they want to believe but that is not what I do, I believe because of the evidence.

None of the prophecies for the return of Christ failed to be fulfilled, it is the people who failed to recognize that they were fulfilled back in the 19th century.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Just ask my husband if I want to believe. Every time we get in a discussion about God he asks me why I don't become an atheist and be done with it. I want to believe in God like I want a hole in the head. I only believe because of the evidence, period.
Please, your husband would be a biased source. Your posts here tell us that you only want to believe. You have refused to approach your faith rationally and logically here. Or have you forgetten your endless failures already explained to you by quite a few posters here?
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Well I see time prophecies did not fail and were fulfilled, so my previous suggestion stands, is it our capacity that prevents us considering them in the light they were given, or is it just luck, or is it a gift?

For instance if a prophecy is interpreted to say that in the year 1844 Christ will return and then another prophecy says that a message will be given that lasts 1260 years and both events happen in the same year and in that year a new message is proclaimed, is this a failed prophecy, or is it our failure not to look further?

Regards Tony
Then you do not understand how to deal with prophecies rationally.

Did you see the list that I posted? Let's discuss those qualifications If you can show that the list is wrong then you may be correct.

But for your given example, if a prophecy clearly states Christ will return in 1844 for it to be confirmed there would have to be reliable observations of him. If not it is a failed prophecy. Your bogus qualification is an admission of it. You have no way of knowing that the second event happened, much less the first.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Please, your husband would be a biased source. Your posts here tell us that you only want to believe. You have refused to approach your faith rationally and logically here. Or have you forgetten your endless failures already explained to you by quite a few posters here?

Well in support of Trailblazer I would offer that many millions also see the prophecies have been fulfilled.

Are you suggesting all of them have also not approached their faith in a rational and logical way?

I also offer most of them also did not want to beleive, but found the evidence and logical to accept belief.

Regards Tony
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Well in support of Trailblazer I would offer that many millions also see the prophecies have been fulfilled.

Are you suggesting all of them have also not approached their faith in a rational and logical way?

I also offer most of them also did not want to beleive, but found the evidence and logical to accept belief.

Regards Tony
Yes, people that already believe that will do that for any religion. There are Christians that will point to their "fulfilled" prophecies to refute yours. And if you saw prophecies from another religion that disagreed with yours you would be quick to point out the flaws that I did.

Failed prophecies do not refute your religion. They merely demonstrate that they do not support a rational belief in your religion. Don't worry. I do not think that any religion right now can be supported by rational reasoning.

Rational thought is the weakness of almost all religions. Instead of trying to shore up an indefensible weakness (you only make your religion look worse when you do) it would make much more sense to try to identify the strengths of your religion and support it using those.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Then you do not understand how to deal with prophecies rationally.

Did you see the list that I posted? Let's discuss those qualifications If you can show that the list is wrong then you may be correct.

But for your given example, if a prophecy clearly states Christ will return in 1844 for it to be confirmed there would have to be reliable observations of him. If not it is a failed prophecy. Your bogus qualification is an admission of it. You have no way of knowing that the second event happened, much less the first.

So there are reliable observations that a Messenger did give a Message in 1844.

No only that, there were people looking for that Message, as other prophecies were showing them what to look for.

I know 1844 has now passed and I know that Islam was abrogated by a Message in the year 1260, which was 1844 and all this adds up to reasonable logic conclusions, that we can choose to expand on by confirming by other prophecy.

Regards Tony
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
So there are reliable observations that a Messenger did give a Message in 1844.

No only that, there were people looking fo that Message, as other prophecies were showing them what to look for.

I know 1844 has now passed and I know that Islam was abrogated by a Message in the year1260, which was 1844 and all this adds up to conclude that it is reasonable logic and sound reasoning that we can choose to expand on by confirming other prophecy.

Regards Tony
There are? I never agreed to that. I said that if it could be shown to be true you might have a point. But I must have missed the New York Times article on the return of Jesus.

Or perhaps you are just confused in how you are trying to make this claim.

See if you can clean up your post a bit if you want anyone besides a fellow Kool-Aid drinker to agree with you.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
@Trailblazer and @TransmutingSoul :

A simple way to demonstrate your sincerity: give all of your retirement savings to charity. Every penny, leaving nothing for yourselves.

If you really are sure that we're in the end times, then you'll be sure you won't need the money.

If you aren't prepared to do this, then we'll know you aren't that certain about your claims.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Please, your husband would be a biased source. Your posts here tell us that you only want to believe.
I cannot believe my ears. Get a dictionary. The word biased does not apply. My husband and I have been married for over 35 years so he knows me better than anyone else in the world. It have told him numerous times I do not want to believe in God because I do not like God. I can call him over to log in and tell you himself if you don't believe me. I struggle to like God and it is an uphill battle given all my suffering and all the suffering I see in this world

If you read my posts without bias you would know what they tell you. They certainly don't tell you I want to believe in God, quite the contrary. I only believe in God because I know God exists because of the evidence.

Do you realize that it is arrogant to tell me what I want? You have no idea what I want.
You have refused to approach your faith rationally and logically here. Or have you forgetten your endless failures already explained to you by quite a few posters here?
Already explained to me by quite a few atheist posters here who cannot even see the evidence for God staring them in the face and that believe I have failures? Ask me if I care what they think. I only care what God thinks of me. I have not failed to recognize God in His new attire and that is ALL I care about because that is ALL that will matter on Judgment day.
 
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Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
@Trailblazer and @TransmutingSoul :

A simple way to demonstrate your sincerity: give all of your retirement savings to charity. Every penny, leaving nothing for yourselves.

If you really are sure that we're in the end times, then you'll be sure you won't need the money.

If you aren't prepared to do this, then we'll know you aren't that certain about your claims.
Better yet, give it to me. Trust me I will put it to good use (Vegas baby!!).
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Yes, people that already believe that will do that for any religion. There are Christians that will point to their "fulfilled" prophecies to refute yours. And if you saw prophecies from another religion that disagreed with yours you would be quick to point out the flaws that I did.

Failed prophecies do not refute your religion. They merely demonstrate that they do not support a rational belief in your religion. Don't worry. I do not think that any religion right now can be supported by rational reasoning.

Rational thought is the weakness of almost all religions. Instead of trying to shore up an indefensible weakness (you only make your religion look worse when you do) it would make much more sense to try to identify the strengths of your religion and support it using those.

Well it definitely proves something is wrong.

I will leave it there.

Regards Tony
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
I cannot believe my ears. Get a dictionary. The word biases does not apply. My husband and I have been married for over 35 years so he knows me better than anyone else in the world. It have told him numerous times I do not want to believe in God because I do not like God. I can call him over to log in and tell you himself if you don't believe me. I struggle to like God and it is an uphill battle given all my suffering and all the suffering I see in this world

If you read my posts without bias you would know what they tell you. They certainly don't tell you I want to believe in God, quite the contrary. I only believe in God because I know God exists because of the evidence.

Do you realize that it is arrogant to tell me what I want? You have no idea what I want.

Already explained to me by quite a few atheist posters here who cannot even see the evidence for God staring them in the face and that believe I have failures? Ask me if I care what they think. I only care what God thinks of me. I have not failed to recognize God in His new attire and that is ALL I care about because that is ALL that will matter on Judgment day.
Sorry, but your actions here speak much louder than your words. That you will not debate rationally and logically alone tells us that you want to believe.

And you repeatedly failed to present any evidence. Do we need to go over the concept of evidence? We could do that .
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Yeah, why do I do it to myself? Maybe because I think it is an important subject.

You have to know that I did it just for you. Now is your opportunity to get Christians and maybe even some Baha'is to help you figure out your favorite prophecy. :D

You already know what Abdu'l-Baha said and that is what Baha'is adhere to but if I have time and get motivated I might look at this some more.
I don't understand the problem. It tells you when to start counting the days. But Baha'is find better times to start counting... Here's the link.
And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

1. 1,290 Days
In "Some Answered Questions" (Wilmette: Bahá'í Publishing Trust, 1984), pages 43-44, Abdu'l-Bahá interprets the prophecy concerning the 1,290 days in the following terms:

The beginning of this lunar reckoning is from the day of the proclamation of the prophethood of Muhammad in the country of Hijaz; and that was three years after His mission, because in the beginning the prophethood of Muhammad was kept secret, and no one knew it save Khadijah and Ibn Nawfal. After three years it was announced. And Bahá'u'lláh, in the year 1290 from the proclamation of the mission of Muhammad, caused His manifestation to be known.

Note that the Master indicates that, in this instance, time is measured by the "lunar" calendar. Since the proclamation of the mission of Muhammad took place ten years prior to the Hegira, i.e., His flight from Mecca to Medina, from which date the Muslim calendar begins, the year 1290 from the proclamation of the mission of Muhammad was the year 1280 of the Hegira, or 1863-64 A.D...

2. 1,335 Days
Two Tablets revealed by `Abdu'l-Bahá which are published in "The Passing of `Abdu'l-Bahá" (Haifa: 1922), by Lady Blomfield and Shoghi Effendi, provide interpretations of the 1,335 days referred to by Daniel:

Now concerning the verse in Daniel, the interpretation whereof thou didst ask, namely, "Blessed is he who cometh unto the thousand three hundred and thirty five days". These days must be reckoned as solar and not lunar years. For according to this calculation a century will have elapsed from the dawn of the Sun of Truth, then will the teachings of God be firmly established upon the earth, and the Divine Light shall flood the world from the East even unto the West. Then, on this day, will the faithful rejoice! (p. 31)
O servant of God! The afore mentioned a thousand three hundred and thirty-five years must be reckoned from the day of the flight of His Holiness Muhammad, the Apostle of God, (Hegira) salutations and blessings rest upon Him, at the close of which time the signs of the rise, the glory, the exaltation, the spread of the Word of God throughout the East and the West shall appear. (p. 31)



From these Tablets it appears that:


- The spread of the Faith throughout the world will signal the fulfilment of this prophecy.
- The "days must be reckoned as solar and not lunar years".

- The Tablets suggest that the prophecy is fulfilled by two different dates. The first derives from the centenary of the Declaration of Bahá'u'lláh; the second is calculated from 622 A.D. -- hence, 1963 and 1957.

 
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