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Featured Have the end times arrived?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Trailblazer, Oct 16, 2021.

  1. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Have the end times arrived? What do you think the prophet Daniel meant by the following? What does it mean, run to and fro, and how will knowledge be increased?

    “But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.”

    Below is the context of the verse:

    Daniel Chapter 12 King James Version

    4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

    8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?

    9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

    11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

    12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.


    The following excerpts are from an article entitled The Abrahamic Religions and the End Times.

    If I told you that the end times have arrived, when all people would be gathered together, and described all religions as rivers flowing to one ocean, you might ask “Where does scripture tell us that?”

    To discover that theme as it runs through the scriptures of the world’s great religions, let’s start with the Judeo-Christian tradition, where the gathering of all people together in the end times is made rather plain. The prophet Isaiah wrote:

    In the last days the mountain of the Lord’s temple will be established as the highest of the mountains; it will be exalted above the hills and all nations will stream to it. – Isaiah 2:2.

    Here the metaphor is a mountain, not a river, but the message is the same: all nations will flow unto the mountain or the temple, just as rivers flow to the sea.

    This mountain of the Lord’s House unto which all nations will come is a frequent symbol in the Bible. Here it is later in Isaiah, where what happens on this mountain is explained:

    On this mountain the Lord Almighty will prepare a feast of rich food for all peoples, a banquet of aged wine – the best of meats and the finest of wines. On this mountain he will destroy the shroud that enfolds all peoples, the sheet that covers all nations; he will swallow up death forever. The Sovereign Lord will wipe away the tears from all faces; he will remove his people’s disgrace from all the earth. The Lord has spoken. – Isaiah 25:6-8.

    Did you catch the part that the feast is for all people and that God is going to remove the shroud – the cover – that separates us?

    Consider what happens when fish from different rivers enter the sea. They are suddenly brought together, clearly visible to each other, with no separation between them. We can each see that happening now, at varying rates, all around the world, at a much faster rate than ever before.

    Consider also this verse from the prophet Jeremiah:

    O Lord, my strength and my fortress, my refuge in time of distress, to you the nations will come from the ends of the earth and say, “Our fathers possessed nothing but false gods, worthless idols that did them no good.” – Jeremiah 16:19.

    This verse emphasizes that people will worship one idol-less God, but did you catch the part where the nations of the earth will be brought together?

    The theme recurs again in this famous passage from the prophet Micah, echoing Isaiah:

    In the last days the mountain of the Lord’s temple will be established as the highest of the mountains; it will be exalted above the hills, and peoples will stream to it. Many nations will come and say, “Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the temple of the God of Jacob. He will teach us his ways, so that we may walk in his paths.” The law will go out from Zion, the word of the Lord from Jerusalem. He will judge between many peoples and will settle disputes for strong nations far and wide. They will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not take up sword against nation, nor will they train for war anymore. Everyone will sit under their own vine and under their own fig tree, and no one will make them afraid, for the Lord Almighty has spoken. All the nations may walk in the name of their gods, but we will walk in the name of the Lord our God for ever and ever. – Micah 4:1-5.

    Here the divine promise of what will happen when we come together is revealed: justice under a common law will be established, peace among nations will be secured, and individual life and property protected.

    The Qur’an, too, foretells collective gathering and judgment, announcing:

    … one Day We shall summon all human beings [and judge them] according to the conscious disposition which governed their deeds [in life]: whereupon they whose record shall be placed in their right hand – it is they who will read their record [with happiness]. Yet none shall be wronged by as much as a hair’s breadth. – 17:71.

    Some interpret this as the judgment that occurs at death when Christian law will judge Christians, Jewish law will judge Jews, and Muslim law will judge Muslims, etc. Up until our present age, this seems to be the right interpretation, but now a new interpretation is possible: It could mean that when we are brought together in this world, as is now happening, we will each be judged by one moral law that separates the wheat from the chaff of each religion. Indications in other places support this new interpretation.

    The Qur’an speaks of a Day when the old ways will be put away, and when people will be brought together under a common law. It reads:

    [God’s promise will be fulfilled] on the Day when the earth shall be changed into another earth, as shall be the heavens and when [all men] shall appear before God, the One who holds absolute sway over all that exists. – 14:48.

    Here, we are brought together by God in life, not death, and charged with changing the old Earth into a new Earth, using the guidance of a new heaven – a new religion.

    This earth-and-heaven-changing Day is referred to in many different ways in the Qur’an – as the Day of Resurrection, when the whole Earth will be in God’s grasp and God will judge between the religions (Qur’an 39:67-69; 22:17). It refers to the Day of Folding (Takwir) when the heavens and Earth are folded up and a new one is laid out. It includes the Day that arises out of darkness when the sun is folded up and the stars are taken away and the people are lost (Sura 81). In this Day things that were thought to be stable, like mountains, prove not to be, and things that need tending have to be abandoned. This Surah goes on to say that in this Day the rivers (or waters) that separate us and also carry our ships will drain chaotically into a common unordered sea, and that all people and beasts (which probably means men and women who act like beasts) will be brought together and asked of their doings.

    When will these things happen? The verses say (81:10): when the books are spread abroad or laid open, or to use Daniel’s phrase, “when knowledge shall be increased.” That is happening now. In our media-connected world all is accessible and visible. Not only is knowledge a click away, so too are deeds. The books are open. Misdeeds and evil, as well as deeds of service and generosity, corruption and greed, as wells as right intent and action, are all clearly manifest. The Qur’an, however, says even more, completing the prophecy given to Daniel, saying that the Promised Day will come (51:6-7) when the heavens are full of numerous (some translations say “starry”) paths.

    Look up into the sky and tell me: Do you not see the starry paths of airplanes and spaceships as many now run to and fro as Daniel foretold?
     
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  2. Snow White

    Snow White Veteran Member

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    The problem is looking for things ahead of time, in a prophetic way..... will always point to a person being right, in their own opinion. Because things always happen that can look like circumstancial evidence when vague predictions are followed.

    But no, if you follow the fine details of the end-times, most predictions in Revelation probably have not happened. It's only when one starts using symbolism and bending it to their will, already believing the end is here, as well as taking Jesus' statement about "being caught as a thief in the night", which is really vague, do people look at things and see the Abrahamic end-times.
     
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  3. Lain

    Lain An Intervallic Time Traveler

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    I don't think Daniel was speaking of airplanes at all. Moreover, the end times have already begun (according to me), the world has already ended:

     
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  4. Rival

    Rival Dex Me Gart
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    It's never a good idea to use the Authorised Version these days, for serious study.
     
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  5. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    What would you expect to see if the end times had arrived?
    Would you expect to see it happen all at once?

    I believe that "end times" refers to a period of time, not a single event so even if some of the predictions in Revelation have not happened yet that does not mean we have not entered the end times.
     
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  6. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    I agree with what he said in the video, that the scriptures mean end of an age and not end of the world, but I do not believe that end of the age came until the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days, which I believe means 2300 years, according to the day-year principle. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Day-year_principle

    Daniel Chapter 12 King James Version

    9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

    11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

    12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
     
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  7. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Do you mean the KJV? What would you use instead?
     
  8. Rival

    Rival Dex Me Gart
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    Koren or ArtScroll with commentary.

    If you must use a Christian translation I'd go NRSV (yes the gender neutral stuff sucks but the translation is overall one of the most academic) or the ESV, at a push.
     
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  9. Jimmy

    Jimmy Well-Known Member

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    No one will ever know.
    It comes quick and quietly and a new existence takes its place just as quick and quiet.
     
  10. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    I believe there is some truth to that, as few people will know that a new existence is replacing the old existence.
     
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  11. Jimmy

    Jimmy Well-Known Member

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    yeah few know it will come but none will know when or at the time
     
  12. Orbit

    Orbit I'm a planet

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    The same verses were used by Hal Lindsey to say that tribulation/armageddon would occur in 1982.
     
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  13. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Why do you believe that none will know when or at the time?
     
  14. Jimmy

    Jimmy Well-Known Member

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    God is smart. If we knew when, or more importantly how, we’d mess it up unfortunately
     
  15. Rival

    Rival Dex Me Gart
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    Jesus claims none will know the time, not even him.
     
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  16. sun rise

    sun rise "This is the Hour of God"
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    I happen to believe we are living in an end times - not the Abrahamic end times but one also seen in Hinduism and Buddhism and I think Native American prophecy as well.

    World War II and the Cuban Missile Crisis where the fate of the world rested on one person's decision marked a peak in the old world.

    Since then to me the new one is being born quietly, out of the vision of most people. I see it as I see the first hint of spring in the middle of winter. There starts to be a subtle feeling in the air that the season is changing and small hints of the Spring.

    The media is full of the dying struggles of the old order that tries to resist. The path is not a straight line but it is moving in a new direction.

    Every act of love, however tiny, is helping it grow.

    Beginning_awakening.jpg
     
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  17. Jimmy

    Jimmy Well-Known Member

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    Haha that’s not why I said it. He did say it too though haha
     
  18. The Hammer

    The Hammer Wyrd Walker
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    Sounds like the idea of Indigo Children of the 70's and the "Age of Aquarius".

    It's just the same old drivel, contemplating the ending world, instead of working to make it a better world.
     
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  19. Jimmy

    Jimmy Well-Known Member

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    U can make the world a better place and devote a few minutes out of your life to think about end times. Haha
    Death of existence is worthy of a thought
     
  20. The Hammer

    The Hammer Wyrd Walker
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    You can, but people have been discussing how the world is ending since we first put down Mythological ideas. It's nothing new, and it certainly isn't occuring this instance or the near future (my lifetime).
     
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