Hatred of Christianity!

[not nom]

you'd have a much better time exploring the possibility and arguments about the creator making laws that ultimately are there for us, not us for them. just an idea? of course that then raises questions about the individual religions and their claims and "how all that is supposed to go together". but there's certainly arguments to be made for there being there more than just parlour tricks and brainwashing.

but don't tell me a lot of interpretation and practice of religions isn't self-righteous, totalitarian, backwards, inferior and evil, and that religion doesn't give some people comfort in what they otherwise would not be able to justify towards themselves or others. because I can read, and I pay attention to the world around me. I see good in all people, atheists and religious, and I see evil in religion I do not see anywhere else, other than ideologies like nazism, racism, nationalism, resentful leftists etc... the list is long, and it could be argued that those ideologies border on the religious. so much for me picking on christianity anything, far from it, christianity is simply the topic. I guess I'm not that much of a believer anymore, but that USED to be "criticizing my own"... there's enough christians criticizing islam and vice versa, you know, and I find that weak.

I usually call it armbandism instead of fascism though, which is a very broad term I made up to include even cliques and rather harmless situations -- and which applies to many religious claims and practices so readily it's not even funny. but yeah, it's also heavily connotated with negative things... good. that's the point. ask someone else for euphemisms, I'm sure there are plenty who will provide.

 

[Agnostic75]

Now, have I said that my religion is the true religion and that everything else is lies? No, never.

Do you believe that rejecting Christianity is ultimately risky, meaning risky after death?

 

[Agnostic75]

Why do so many people want to point the finger at Christianity for the evil done in its name instead of pointing the finger at the human heart?

Why do so many Christians in the U.S., mainly conservatives, want to point the finger at Christianity, along with Judaism, as being the foundation of the building of the most powerful and best country in world history?

 

[fallingblood]

Do you believe that rejecting Christianity is ultimately risky, meaning risky after death?

Not at all. I believe in a loving supreme being and just can't see them having a problem with people not believing in them. I mean, if this supreme being really wanted to have people believe in them, they could give a sign.

So really, I think Christianity is just one of the many possible ways. I also think atheism and other forms of non-belief are just as fine. Basically, for me, it just comes down to what works for that individual.

 

[Agnostic75]

I believe in a loving supreme being and just can't see them having a problem with people not believing in them. I mean, if this supreme being really wanted to have people believe in them, they could give a sign.

So really, I think Christianity is just one of the many possible ways. I also think atheism and other forms of non-belief are just as fine. Basically, for me, it just comes down to what works for that individual.

Excellent, thank you.

 

[not nom]

Pope says sorry for sins of church | World news | The Guardian

Monday 13 March 2000

From the altar of St Peter's Basilica in Rome he led Catholicism into unchartered territory by seeking forgiveness for sins committed against Jews, heretics, women, Gypsies and native peoples.

[..]

Defying warnings from some theologians that the unprecedented apology would undermine the church's authority, the 79-year-old pontiff asked God to forgive the persecution of the Jews. "We are deeply saddened by the behaviour of those who in the course of history have caused these children of yours to suffer, and asking your forgiveness we wish to commit ourselves to genuine brotherhood."

Wearing the purple vestments of lenten mourning, the Pope sought pardon for seven categories of sin: general sins; sins in the service of truth; sins against Christian unity; against the Jews; against respect for love, peace and cultures; against the dignity of women and minorities; and against human rights.

Ethnic groups had endured "contempt for their cultures and religious traditions". Women were "all too often humiliated and marginalised". Trust in wealth and power had obscured the church's responsibility to the poor and oppressed.

There was no reference to homosexuals, who had asked to be included for suffering theocratic violence. The Pope did not identify guilty individuals or name the crusades, the Inquisition or the Holocaust, but the references were clear.

[..]

Several Jewish leaders praised the sermon as historic and significant but Israel's chief rabbi said he was deeply frustrated by the Pope's failure to mention the Holocaust, and described the service as "a severely warped view of history".

Rabbi Israel Meir Lau joined other Israelis in expressing hope that the pope had omitted acknowledging the church's passivity during the Holocaust only because he was planning a specific apology during next week's pilgrimage to the holy land.

Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, head of the congregation of the doctrine of the faith, confessed to the sins of the congregation's predecessor, the Inquisition. "Even men of the church, in the name of faith and morals, have sometimes used methods not in keeping with the Gospel," he said.

[..]

The Crusades

Pope Urban II, anxious to assert Rome's authority in the east, sent a military expedition in 1095 to reconquer the holy land. The crusaders ravaged the countries they passed through and massacred the Muslim, Jewish and even Christian population of Jerusalem after capturing it in 1099. After 200 years of conflict Muslim armies drove them out for good, but the crusaders' symbol of the red cross remains provocative.

The Inquisition

The attempt to combat suspected apostates, Jews and Muslims at the time of the Reformation spawned tribunals in Europe and the new world that tortured and executed thousands. Ecclesiastical queasiness about flowing blood led to the use of racks, thumbscrews and red-hot metal instead of blades; 2,000 people were burned at the stake during the tenure of Spain's first grand inquisitor, Tomas de Torquemada.

The Holocaust

Pope Pius XII never publicly condemned the Nazis' persecution of Jews, even when they were being rounded up and deported from Rome. His silence is partly blamed for the failure of Germany's Catholics to resist Hitler. Anti-Jewish Catholic doctrines such as the claim that the Jews murdered Christ were said to have ideologically underpinned nazism. Vatican officials allegedly helped Nazis escape Europe after the war.

R.I.P.

 

[Heathen Hammer]

And why is it such a shame to look at history from an objective perspective, and actually try to understand the reason behind actions? I don't see why you have a problem with that. History isn't black and white
My scripture? When did I ever say it was my scripture? When did I even state that it was scripture? Please, if you don't know what my beliefs are, don't comment on them.

As I have mentioned, it feels like a waste of time engaging with you, we are going in circles. I have advocated observing history objectively; you are the one making excuses, as you do, again, in this response.

In addition, here you also dodge whether you are even Christian. You are when it suits, and aren't when it suits.

I'm also not denying that horrible actions have been committed in the name of God. However, the actions in the OT are those of the Jews, not Christians. Not a big point, but still something that should be brought up. More so, like I have said, there are a variety of factors involved. More so, more and more people are looking at the Bible as a whole not as something that is literal, but something that is metaphorical.

As soon as you begin at 'those of the Jews', you are doing it again. Christianity is void without Judaeism preceding it; you [Christianity] are a schism of it.

When the books of the Bible were written, they weren't considered scripture. That only happened later. And really, there were many writings that were considered scripture. What we have are just the ones that won out. It is the way that those individuals saw things. Does that mean that is what God did? Of course not. They were the actions of humans. They may have seen their actions divinely inspired, and I wouldn't deny that, but it doesn't mean God did it.

And the actions committed by Christians, I don't deny. What I do deny is that the actions of a group of Christians define Christianity or reflects on all Christians. That simply isn't the matter. And that is what I have been saying all along. I'm not denying that a lot of evil has been committed or justified in the name of God and the Abrahamic religions. However, I'm denying that they are simply religious inspired evils. Instead of painting something so black and white, and would rather look at it in a historical context, with objectivity, and try to figure out the real reasons why the events occurred. I would rather look at the events in a historic manner. I don't see why that is a problem?

Of course.

 

[Heathen Hammer]

The subject at hand. Maybe it would be worth going to my last response to you.

Went all the way back to pg 46 and we were already arguing then. Nothing on topic since, between us. Guess I'll just settle in wherever the thread is at hand.

 

[tarekabdo12]

Why do so many people want to point the finger at Christianity for the evil done in its name instead of pointing the finger at the human heart? Pointing the finger at Christians is the same as pointing the finger at scientists saying look how evil science is pushing these drugs that can destroy lives on every T.V. comercial that pops up.
Hey Got a sniffle? try Snif away!
Side effects include headaches,nashau,depression,liver disease,flat tires on car,dog runs away,wars and rumors of wars.........etc.
science is evil and slowly murdering people through chemical processes all in the name of the almighty dollar!
Can't point the finger at science for the evil in mans heart.
Those who are full of evil and hatred ,greed will spread it by anymeans necessary and they will use the Bible,science,or any other means necessary to justify themselves.
Its not the institution of Christianity that is evil just like its not science or medicine that is evil.Pharmaceutical companies used mans faith in science(and in doctors with dumb commercials) as a means to push there selfish agendas for profits.
I don't blame scientists or consider them evil even from all of the horror and devestation that has been done through its creations.
Attacking the establishment of Christianity for the evil that man has in his heart is the same as attacking science and medicine for the evil being done in its name.
Christianity is one of the most strongest love based religions I know of and is why it is always pesecuted and in the state of resistance against hatred!

In general, I see that Christianity calls for many good things and that some people-as you have already mentioned - use religion ina wrong manner. This is true and happens in all religions and with all good ideas since man still has the choose to choose his evil deeds. However, when we criticize a specific idea we should always dicard how people practice it and focus only on what it calls for. For me, Ithink that Christianity is very near to the total truth. I only disagree with very few things in it. I disagree with Jesus being a God or His son and with some stories in the Bible about the Prophets. However, we share the same morals.

 

[fallingblood]

In addition, here you also dodge whether you are even Christian. You are when it suits, and aren't when it suits.

I have never dodged about being a Christian. I have been very open, throughout this thread, that I am a Christian. I have never denied that. Yes, I don't practice Christianity like some others, and I don't agree with many other Christians, but that doesn't mean that I deny being a Christian or anything like that.

I think it boils down to you not understanding, fully, what Christianity is.

As soon as you begin at 'those of the Jews', you are doing it again. Christianity is void without Judaeism preceding it; you [Christianity] are a schism of it.
Of course.

As soon as you take what I said out of context, and try to argue against it, you fail to actually address what I said. Jews and Christians are not the same. What Jews have done, and do, do not define what Christians have done and do. What Christians have done and do, do not define what Jews have done and do.

The OT does not talk about Christians. Christianity, in any form, did not exist. The OT speaks about the Jews, and their history. To say that Christians were involved in that, is simply ridiculous, as well as shameful and dishonoring.

 

[not nom]

The OT does not talk about Christians. Christianity, in any form, did not exist. The OT speaks about the Jews, and their history. To say that Christians were involved in that, is simply ridiculous, as well as shameful and dishonoring.

he didn't say the christians "were involved in that", but simply that the NT is based on the OT. "not one iota of the law" - what do you think this refers to - the OT, or stuff like paul's letters? heh.

it's easy to say someone doesn't "fully understand christianity" without making any attempt to define it yourself.

 

[Heathen Hammer]

I have never dodged about being a Christian. I have been very open, throughout this thread, that I am a Christian. I have never denied that. Yes, I don't practice Christianity like some others, and I don't agree with many other Christians, but that doesn't mean that I deny being a Christian or anything like that.

I think it boils down to you not understanding, fully, what Christianity is.

Psh please. I definitely understand it fully, having been one.
One of the reasons I am no longer one, is that I understand it fully.
In fact, I simply must mention with no small side-dish of irony that one of the factors which lead me away from it, once I grasped it, was all the cognitive dissonance it encourages.

As soon as you take what I said out of context, and try to argue against it, you fail to actually address what I said. Jews and Christians are not the same. What Jews have done, and do, do not define what Christians have done and do. What Christians have done and do, do not define what Jews have done and do.

that they are the same is never my argument. That you cannot have the latter without the former, is my argument. And it DOES define Christianity, you silly person, because without the Judaic moschiach, you would never have had a need for Jesus to be a messiah. There is no basis for the NT without the OT, period. There would have been no scripture to tell you one [a messiah]was even coming, or, how to recognize him. omg lol!

The OT does not talk about Christians. Christianity, in any form, did not exist. The OT speaks about the Jews, and their history. To say that Christians were involved in that, is simply ridiculous, as well as shameful and dishonoring.

I really cannot imagine how you can believe this will be taken seriously. Hebrew history is your history, as a Christian. You come from them.

It's AMAZING how much you want to separate yourself from history simply to be free of some, I don't know, guilt by association. There is no Christianity without Judaism. I think YOU don't understand history, and Christianity, no matter how erudite you affect to be here.

I understand your tack about how some do something and others don't and that doesn't define the general mass; even though the OP was framed as a generalization; but to pretend that there is no connection at all between Jewish history and that of Christianity.. I mean, wow.

 

[fallingblood]

Psh please. I definitely understand it fully, having been one.

I was going to respond to this post; and did write out responses. However, getting to the end of it, I realized that replying further to you or not nom simply is a waste. Neither one of you are willing to actually read what I'm saying in an objective manner, and instead, would rather twist and misrepresent what I'm saying based on ignorance.

If you want to have a mature conversation; without taking me out of context, and claiming that I said thing I didn't, I would be happy to continue. However, I simply am not willing to go round and round in circles trying to defend what I said by putting it back into context.

 

[not nom]

good.

 

[Heathen Hammer]

I was going to respond to this post; and did write out responses. However, getting to the end of it, I realized that replying further to you or not nom simply is a waste. Neither one of you are willing to actually read what I'm saying in an objective manner, and instead, would rather twist and misrepresent what I'm saying based on ignorance.

If you want to have a mature conversation; without taking me out of context, and claiming that I said thing I didn't, I would be happy to continue. However, I simply am not willing to go round and round in circles trying to defend what I said by putting it back into context.

Tell me old bean, in what way am I taking you saying I don't understand a religion I was once a member of, out of context? You resort to this non sequitur excuse/ad hom way too often.
Suit yourself, in any case. And I won't call it 'backing out' as you did, either.

 

[Neophyte]

I completely understand your grief with this. Not all Christians are evil people...truth is most are not. Christianity is, however, a very evil religion if you place your emphasis on the Old Testament, but Christianity is a very loving religion if you focus on the New Testament. Truth is, it boils down to the individual Christian himself/herself.

I was a Christian for most my life. I went to school to be a pastor. I know the Bible rather well. I am not a fan of a lot of its teachings. I know people who want every witch dead, and feel we should give every Muslim (and people of other religions) a chance to convert or die. So Christianity has tought them to think this way. At the same time, there are Christians out there that believe god gave everyone the freedom of choice so they have that right. In order to convert people they must show them love and hopefully they will see the light. They were taught this through Christianity. So again, it depends on the individual as well as who has taught them.

I feel the main reason though comes from the thousands upon thousands killed in the name of Christianity from the Christian Crusades to the Salem Witch Trials. Also, today American Christianity is pushed on the people by others still. Not nearly as bad as it once was. In another 20 years I foresee this dying off a lot more.

I don't hate Christians. I just want them to allow me to believe as I wish and not push their beliefs on me. I am OK and actually enjoy discussing and even occasionally debating religions, but for the most part I would rather keep my thoughts to myself and be friends. That is much more productive than anything else.

 

[waitasec]

I completely understand your grief with this. Not all Christians are evil people...truth is most are not.

i of course agree with this. having said that...
i disagree with this

Christianity is, however, a very evil religion if you place your emphasis on the Old Testament, but Christianity is a very loving religion if you focus on the New Testament.

we need to look at the "old testament", which i think is disrespectful to the jewish tradition. the tanakh or the torah is what christians do not read.
they read the septuagint a greek translation...the oral tradition has found a way to reconcile the questionable acts done in the name of god. meaning they have reconciled that this was their ancestors way of figuring out what god wanted them to do...
however it's the notion that someone can pay for your culpability, is far more dangerous and evil as far as i am concerned

 

[kaknelson]

whoa I can't find my reply from fallingblood

 

[AdamEve]

Why do so many people want to point the finger at Christianity for the evil done in its name instead of pointing the finger at the human heart? Pointing the finger at Christians is the same as pointing the finger at scientists saying look how evil science is pushing these drugs that can destroy lives on every T.V. comercial that pops up.
!

Becuase religion teaches people not to ask question, to blindly follow what they are told and prevents people for trying to understand nature. When religion goes wrong good things happen.

Scinece teaches people to Be critical minded and not to blindly follow and teaches understanding of nauture. Science tries to bring good thins for people. When science goes wrong bad things happen.

 

[Quagmire]

Becuase religion teaches people not to ask question, to blindly follow what they are told and prevents people for trying to understand nature.

No, actually people teach themselves that. Sometimes they use religion as an excuse, sometimes other things.

When religion goes wrong good things happen.

Like the Inquisitions you mean? I would call that an instance of religion going wrong.

Scinece teaches people to Be critical minded and not to blindly follow and teaches understanding of nauture. Science tries to bring good thins for people. When science goes wrong bad things happen.

You're almost making it sound like we all have this choice between Christianity and Science, like we have to pick one and discard the other.