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Hate isn't the way of the Satanist

Kapalika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
This topic assumes you at least have a little bit of a contextual understanding of Satanism. Don't expect me to cater to your misconceptions if you know nothing about it. Also this topic I've cross posted elsewhere although I originally wrote this on and for RF.

Hate is a very strong emotion. Much is made, particularly among certain types, of the fact that humans are both hating and loving creatures. I honestly think such attitudes are rooted in tribalism. Love your friends, hate your enemies. Such has been the battle cry for eons of the warlike religions, political ideologies and governmental entities who sought to expand through violence and forced conversion.

It seems for some they feel as if they should love a few and default to a hateful attitude towards many others. I don't agree. Rather, I'd propose, hate should be rationed just as those like LaVey told the Satanist to ration love in The Satanic Bible (though I'll take this further later on). Hate is a destructive emotion by nature and its liable to backfire if one isn't careful with it.

"But but! Those intolerant, or evil or brainwashing x religion/group!" Well, my dear diabolical friend... simply moving the sword from the right hand to the left hand is still using a sword (see what I did there? :p). I've actually heard Matthew 10:34 and Luke 14:26 used to justify hate mongering, for example. Sadly the trap of hate is one easy to fall into. Those verses, Yeshua bringing a sword to divide, and saying one must hate others to love him, I chose for a reason and not randomly. It's again that tribalism; that old us vs them that's the trap I'm warning against.

I don't consider myself a LaVeyan in any sense, and I will break down a relevant statement in his Satanic Bible and what I disagree with, since this is what I am comparing my position to:

“Love is one of the most intense feelings felt by man; another is hate. Forcing yourself to feel indiscriminate love is very unnatural. If you try to love everyone you only lessen your feelings for those who deserve your love. Repressed hatred can lead to many physical and emotional aliments. By learning to release your hatred towards those who deserve it, you cleanse yourself of these malignant emotions and need not take your pent-up hatred out on your loved ones.” - Anton LaVey's The Satanic Bible (1969)

Okay, so love and hate are intense. So far so good. But the moment he starts talking about indiscriminate love he never contrasts about indiscriminate hate. Yes, I understand that most hateful Satanic types do discriminate, although too often I've seen it be over petty things. There's seems to be something in the id so to speak, that thrives on the release of hating people for stupid crap. This isn't to say this is LaVeyans specifically who do that, funny enough I've seen it with theists quite a lot, but in a lot of ways they take things like this to an extreme and so the passage merited quoting. I picked LaVeyan / Church of Satan out of any other sect as it's one of the few notable groups espousing a view on the pro-hate end of the spectrum. (also funny enough there are more LaVeyan influenced theistic Satanists than first impressions might give otherwise if my online interactions are any indication).

I don't know how we determine who "deserves" hate. What LaVey failed to account for is that since Satanism exalts the subjectivity of the individual there won't be any measure beyond whim for who "deserves" what. Such inclinations in my opinion quickly lend to tyranny of those higher up in the social "stratification" as LaVey's successor Gilmore would put it.

I don't think 99.9% of people can experience "indiscriminate love" but surely an attempt respect for all life is at least on some level rational. Satan is the god of man, of our nature. And there is a part of our nature that does seek to better itself. I'm reminded of an Episode of Star Trek: The Next Generation where the Android named Data (who wishes to be a human) says it's not important that he will never become fully human, just important that he is always trying to improve himself. That to me, that constant self improvement, and personal evolution is what is at the heart of humanity and Satanism. So why can't we aim to try to love more? Perhaps even universally so? It might not be possible, but it's surely worth the effort.

LaVey almost made a valid point, but missed the mark when he said "repressed hate" instead of "repressed emotion". Hate itself, from what I've come to understand of it, festers and grows off of itself. And that's the danger. Most people (I hope) don't take out their frustrations on other people or their loved ones. I honestly think LaVey might of been speaking from experience when he spoke on that.

If someone has someone they really dislike causing them trouble they might diffuse the tension with something healthy like a hobby or working out, whatever. But taking it out on a living being? Even loved ones if they can't against the aggressor? Something more is going on there that most well adjusted people don't have (or at least I hope so anyways).

There are times though, I think "hate" of a sort is warranted, but very rarely so. It's too subjective and honestly if something is that malicious one can address the person or situation indifferently and rationally. I also would say that hate is pretty much something people should avoid as much as possible since it uses up energy and effort. Quite literally it's not worth the effort. If they are truly that bad, it's not worth hating and getting worked up over. They don't deserve your hate. That's why I say, who really deserves hate?

A Satanist should seek to improve themselves, not get carried away with those who are against them. That energy is better spent on becoming a better person, a better Satanist, a better human. Maybe Data had a point. Maybe it isn't the fact that one will ever stop hating entirely but just the fact that they won't be consumed or distracted by it as much and can better spend that effort on themselves is all that matters.

And a topic for another time, but nor does that mean one should be self righteous or arrogant in their dismissal of those they now "don't hate" :) Truly not caring is even less than that; it's not having much of an emotional reaction at all.
 
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Liu

Well-Known Member
“Love is one of the most intense feelings felt by man; another is hate. Forcing yourself to feel indiscriminate love is very unnatural. If you try to love everyone you only lessen your feelings for those who deserve your love. Repressed hatred can lead to many physical and emotional aliments. By learning to release your hatred towards those who deserve it, you cleanse yourself of these malignant emotions and need not take your pent-up hatred out on your loved ones.” - Anton LaVey's The Satanic Bible (1969)
Strange, I understood that paragraph to mean, love those who deserve it, hate those who deserve it, be careful with both emotions.
Yes, it's not really written in a philosophically sound matter, but I wouldn't expect that from that text. So I didn't read much into him expounding the two in an unbalanced fashion.

But maybe that's just me. I feel hatred only very rarely. Anger, sure, also aversion, but outright hatred? Can't really think of any instance actually atm.
So I took it to also refer to feelings of aggression in general.

Regarding what "deserve" means, sure that's subjective. From the context I would assume it means "what feels right to you". Behave in a way that is most helpful to your own mental well-being and don't let yourself get forced into self-destructive behaviour (including behaviour harmful to those whom one doesn't actually want to harm), be it by moral rules or by uncontrolled emotions.

So why can't we aim to try to love more? Perhaps even universally so? It might not be possible, but it's surely worth the effort.
I think LaVeys argument here is that this is not psychologically possible and even trying would do more harm than good. I suppose if one only tries because of dogmatic conviction I agree with him that it will likely be detrimental. But whether this can be generalized to any situation and person, I can't tell. Probably also depends on what one means by love.
 

Kapalika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Strange, I understood that paragraph to mean, love those who deserve it, hate those who deserve it, be careful with both emotions.
Yes, it's not really written in a philosophically sound matter, but I wouldn't expect that from that text. So I didn't read much into him expounding the two in an unbalanced fashion.

But maybe that's just me. I feel hatred only very rarely. Anger, sure, also aversion, but outright hatred? Can't really think of any instance actually atm.
So I took it to also refer to feelings of aggression in general.

Regarding what "deserve" means, sure that's subjective. From the context I would assume it means "what feels right to you". Behave in a way that is most helpful to your own mental well-being and don't let yourself get forced into self-destructive behaviour (including behaviour harmful to those whom one doesn't actually want to harm), be it by moral rules or by uncontrolled emotions.

I think LaVeys argument here is that this is not psychologically possible and even trying would do more harm than good. I suppose if one only tries because of dogmatic conviction I agree with him that it will likely be detrimental. But whether this can be generalized to any situation and person, I can't tell. Probably also depends on what one means by love.

If you're saying it's hyperbole I'd say the problems with his hyperbole is the same problem with the hyperbole that Yeshua had in the verses I mentioned. It's too easy to interpret without reading between the lines. Again, a sword just in the left hand instead of right.

I take serious issue with "what feels right to you" as the arbiter of who "deserves" hate, anger or wrath. By their very nature they are irrational emotions and so they are prone to bias and error. That's the point I brought up with subjectivity making a fair judgement of the situation non-optimal if one is directly involved.

That said I don't know why it would be harmful to try to push the boundaries of one's psychology. As Satanists we do this all the time through magic. My argument is that even hate is a greater drain on resources than love ever could be. Hate consumes and it doesn't stop until it destroys that which it's targeted, and sometimes not even then. I know LaVey had laid out a destruction ritual for all of these purposes but honestly in my experience curses will not quench true hatred so long as the person it's targeted at continues to do their misdeeds real or imagined.

I'm not really a fan of defining love and playing the game of the LaVeyan argument that 'everyone is selfish even love is selfish' because I find it sociopathic and I feel it's a bit of a stretch to say even that was hyperbole too which seems to be one of the main go to explanations for any criticism of the Satanic Bible.

However again if we can expand our behaviors, assume archetypes and cause other changes through our own self evolution then we are clearly capable of learning to be more empathetic. Why LaVey singled that out I could chalk up to an aesthetic if ticking off Hippies since so much of the Satanic Bible was a knee jerk reaction to San Francisco's counter culture of the time but it still stands that it's left some Satanists with justification for a very judgmental attitude and a diminished sense of empathy.

That isn't universal of course; each Satanist is very individualistic. I'm simply making the argument that we can expand our sense of love and mitigate our hate through self evolution and magic. Or even plain old self improvement. I believe this is ideal, since such a society would expand the considerations of individualism within society by being able to empathize with a greater range of types of people. And without individualism, where the heck is Satanism?
 

Sanzbir

Well-Known Member
So first off: I had thought Satanists got all prickly when someone tried to tell them what is or is not the way of the Satanist. :p

This topic assumes you at least have a little bit of a contextual understanding of Satanism. Don't expect me to cater to your misconceptions if you know nothing about it. Also this topic I've cross posted elsewhere although I originally wrote this on and for RF.

Hate is a very strong emotion. Much is made, particularly among certain types, of the fact that humans are both hating and loving creatures. I honestly think such attitudes are rooted in tribalism. Love your friends, hate your enemies. Such has been the battle cry for eons of the warlike religions, political ideologies and governmental entities who sought to expand through violence and forced conversion.

And minor tribes, and family groups, and racism, and identity politics, and everything else under the sun. Tribalism is rooted in a lot of things. One must not underestimate it, especially with just how tied in Tribalism is with these topics of Love and Hate you bring up.

Love and Hate themselves are emotions that are tightly intertwined. Truly you can't Hate a thing unless it is at least a potential threat in your mind to something you Love. Hate is just then an extension of Love, and this is the basis of Human Tribalism. Tribalism evolved from scarcity of resources. The love one felt for those within their tribe translated to hate to everyone outside of their tribe, because the out-group posed a threat to your loved ones because they could potentially take the resources your loved ones needed to survive.

Thus humans evolved love and its counterpart hate, to aid survival and propagation.

But you can see this Love-Hate-Tribe dichotomy in most things. Why do terrorists hate the West?? Because they view it as a threat to the people they love. Why do people in the West hate those terrorists?? The same reason. Why does one hate a political ideology?? Because they see it as a threat to their loved ones in their own political ideology.

In many spiritual traditions, you see an attempt to eschew Hate and Love then, with Taoism teaching ideals of "Joy, anger, sorrow, happiness find no place in that man's breast; for to him all creation is one", or the Baha'i Faith which states that "that every redness in the world is from [the lover's] anger, and every paleness in men’s cheeks is from his poison. He yieldeth no remedy but death, he walketh not save in the valley of the shadow;" and instructs that a spiritual seeker should "shut the door of friendliness and enmity upon all the people of the earth" treating all people as neither friend nor enemy.

From the given quote, it seems LaVey has made the same observation: That one's Love causes one to know Hate as well. It seems that where other spiritual paths thus promote the idea of liberating oneself from both Love and Hate, LaVey just saw it as inevitable and advocated trying to Love and Hate the "right people". I'd think that view misguided, as it's just, as you point out, a continuation of tribalism and the tribal instinct.

Ultimately it seems like LaVey came to the realization that in order to get rid of hate one would also need to get rid of love, and unwilling to make that sacrifice thus tried to promote some sort of "appropriate outlet" for hatred, an embrace of tribalism so he could continue to cling to the love-side of tribalistic instinct.
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
The Left vs Right is not about love vs hate. It is about conformity to an authoritarian God vs pure liberty from it. Liberty from God should not entail loss of morals but a lot of people conflate that stuff.
 

Liu

Well-Known Member
I take serious issue with "what feels right to you" as the arbiter of who "deserves" hate, anger or wrath. By their very nature they are irrational emotions and so they are prone to bias and error. That's the point I brought up with subjectivity making a fair judgement of the situation non-optimal if one is directly involved.
Yes, there are irrational emotions involved. But what other measure would you suggest instead?

That said I don't know why it would be harmful to try to push the boundaries of one's psychology. As Satanists we do this all the time through magic.
I'm not saying it would be necessarily harmful if done intentionally out of inner will and not outside pressure. However, I have the impression that LaVey didn't have an audience in mind that would want to go to such lengths.
My argument is that even hate is a greater drain on resources than love ever could be. Hate consumes and it doesn't stop until it destroys that which it's targeted, and sometimes not even then. I know LaVey had laid out a destruction ritual for all of these purposes but honestly in my experience curses will not quench true hatred so long as the person it's targeted at continues to do their misdeeds real or imagined.
Sure, I agree that hate is something that should be avoided. But what to do if it's already there? As mentioned before, can't really speak from experience, so I don't know whether trying to diminish it or trying to direct it onto the proper goal is more helpful. Probably depends on the person and the circumstances.
If I compare it with frustration, anger, and similar, I would say that it's always recommendable to have some way of letting it out without harming anyone whom one doesn't want to harm - which seems to be the point LaVey was trying to make. Whether that is done by actually attacking the target (be it a person or a more abstract cause of one's feelings), or by a symbolic attack like a destruction ritual, or by simply getting rid of the feelings in another way does not necessarily matter.
Which other way would you recommend? Cultivating more tolerance and/or equanimity?

I'm not really a fan of defining love and playing the game of the LaVeyan argument that 'everyone is selfish even love is selfish' because I find it sociopathic and I feel it's a bit of a stretch to say even that was hyperbole too which seems to be one of the main go to explanations for any criticism of the Satanic Bible.
Well I told you before that I can't really disagree with that argument of him.

However again if we can expand our behaviors, assume archetypes and cause other changes through our own self evolution then we are clearly capable of learning to be more empathetic. Why LaVey singled that out I could chalk up to an aesthetic if ticking off Hippies since so much of the Satanic Bible was a knee jerk reaction to San Francisco's counter culture of the time but it still stands that it's left some Satanists with justification for a very judgmental attitude and a diminished sense of empathy.
Ah, so you are relating love with empathy. Those two are certainly connected, they faciliate each other I think. But I wouldn't say they need to go together. Just because I would feel empathy for someone doesn't mean that I would also feel even an inkling of love for that person, and I could love someone without feeling empathy for them if they get hurt. I'd still not like if they get seriously hurt, but not necessarily out of empathy. Not saying I might not also feel empathy for them, but it feels like something different.

That isn't universal of course; each Satanist is very individualistic. I'm simply making the argument that we can expand our sense of love and mitigate our hate through self evolution and magic. Or even plain old self improvement. I believe this is ideal, since such a society would expand the considerations of individualism within society by being able to empathize with a greater range of types of people. And without individualism, where the heck is Satanism?
I agree.
I think the main issue I had with your first post was that LaVey's text didn't sound to me like it would be mutually exclusive with this. The overall goal is self-improvement in any case. Just the recommended methods are different.

So first off: I had thought Satanists got all prickly when someone tried to tell them what is or is not the way of the Satanist. :p
Oh that's a matter of course. Where you of the impression any of us would have tried something like that? Satanists per definition only talk about their own form of Satanism, don't we? ;)

And minor tribes, and family groups, and racism, and identity politics, and everything else under the sun. Tribalism is rooted in a lot of things. One must not underestimate it, especially with just how tied in Tribalism is with these topics of Love and Hate you bring up.
And that's why I'm not sure how big are the chances of succeeding if trying to mess with basically one's instincts.
 
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DennisTate

Active Member
This topic assumes you at least have a little bit of a contextual understanding of Satanism. Don't expect me to cater to your misconceptions if you know nothing about it. Also this topic I've cross posted elsewhere although I originally wrote this on and for RF.

Hate is a very strong emotion. Much is made, particularly among certain types, of the fact that humans are both hating and loving creatures. I honestly think such attitudes are rooted in tribalism. Love your friends, hate your enemies. Such has been the battle cry for eons of the warlike religions, political ideologies and governmental entities who sought to expand through violence and forced conversion.

It seems for some they feel as if they should love a few and default to a hateful attitude towards many others. I don't agree. Rather, I'd propose, hate should be rationed just as those like LaVey told the Satanist to ration love in The Satanic Bible (though I'll take this further later on). Hate is a destructive emotion by nature and its liable to backfire if one isn't careful with it.

"But but! Those intolerant, or evil or brainwashing x religion/group!" Well, my dear diabolical friend... simply moving the sword from the right hand to the left hand is still using a sword (see what I did there? :p). I've actually heard Matthew 10:34 and Luke 14:26 used to justify hate mongering, for example. Sadly the trap of hate is one easy to fall into. Those verses, Yeshua bringing a sword to divide, and saying one must hate others to love him, I chose for a reason and not randomly. It's again that tribalism; that old us vs them that's the trap I'm warning against.

I don't consider myself a LaVeyan in any sense, and I will break down a relevant statement in his Satanic Bible and what I disagree with, since this is what I am comparing my position to:

“Love is one of the most intense feelings felt by man; another is hate. Forcing yourself to feel indiscriminate love is very unnatural. If you try to love everyone you only lessen your feelings for those who deserve your love. Repressed hatred can lead to many physical and emotional aliments. By learning to release your hatred towards those who deserve it, you cleanse yourself of these malignant emotions and need not take your pent-up hatred out on your loved ones.” - Anton LaVey's The Satanic Bible (1969)

Okay, so love and hate are intense. So far so good. But the moment he starts talking about indiscriminate love he never contrasts about indiscriminate hate. Yes, I understand that most hateful Satanic types do discriminate, although too often I've seen it be over petty things. There's seems to be something in the id so to speak, that thrives on the release of hating people for stupid crap. This isn't to say this is LaVeyans specifically who do that, funny enough I've seen it with theists quite a lot, but in a lot of ways they take things like this to an extreme and so the passage merited quoting. I picked LaVeyan / Church of Satan out of any other sect as it's one of the few notable groups espousing a view on the pro-hate end of the spectrum. (also funny enough there are more LaVeyan influenced theistic Satanists than first impressions might give otherwise if my online interactions are any indication).

I don't know how we determine who "deserves" hate. What LaVey failed to account for is that since Satanism exalts the subjectivity of the individual there won't be any measure beyond whim for who "deserves" what. Such inclinations in my opinion quickly lend to tyranny of those higher up in the social "stratification" as LaVey's successor Gilmore would put it.

I don't think 99.9% of people can experience "indiscriminate love" but surely an attempt respect for all life is at least on some level rational. Satan is the god of man, of our nature. And there is a part of our nature that does seek to better itself. I'm reminded of an Episode of Star Trek: The Next Generation where the Android named Data (who wishes to be a human) says it's not important that he will never become fully human, just important that he is always trying to improve himself. That to me, that constant self improvement, and personal evolution is what is at the heart of humanity and Satanism. So why can't we aim to try to love more? Perhaps even universally so? It might not be possible, but it's surely worth the effort.

LaVey almost made a valid point, but missed the mark when he said "repressed hate" instead of "repressed emotion". Hate itself, from what I've come to understand of it, festers and grows off of itself. And that's the danger. Most people (I hope) don't take out their frustrations on other people or their loved ones. I honestly think LaVey might of been speaking from experience when he spoke on that.

If someone has someone they really dislike causing them trouble they might diffuse the tension with something healthy like a hobby or working out, whatever. But taking it out on a living being? Even loved ones if they can't against the aggressor? Something more is going on there that most well adjusted people don't have (or at least I hope so anyways).

There are times though, I think "hate" of a sort is warranted, but very rarely so. It's too subjective and honestly if something is that malicious one can address the person or situation indifferently and rationally. I also would say that hate is pretty much something people should avoid as much as possible since it uses up energy and effort. Quite literally it's not worth the effort. If they are truly that bad, it's not worth hating and getting worked up over. They don't deserve your hate. That's why I say, who really deserves hate?

A Satanist should seek to improve themselves, not get carried away with those who are against them. That energy is better spent on becoming a better person, a better Satanist, a better human. Maybe Data had a point. Maybe it isn't the fact that one will ever stop hating entirely but just the fact that they won't be consumed or distracted by it as much and can better spend that effort on themselves is all that matters.

And a topic for another time, but nor does that mean one should be self righteous or arrogant in their dismissal of those they now "don't hate" :) Truly not caring is even less than that; it's not having much of an emotional reaction at all.


Well said......
Satanists who understand eventual Universal Salvation......
and many do.......
would tend to want to go to a much higher approach to their religion than one that is filled with
hate and pride.

Spirituality
Christian Andreason, chapter 3:

"Who goes to Heaven?

"In the end" believe it or not (sigh of relief) everyone gets to come home! I know some people will have a hard time hearing this. Especially those who believe that people who do evil deserve (*)(*)(*)(*)ation. But you must understand; Heaven does not think as we do. Heaven is a place of ultimate LOVE! They want nothing more than to see us healed and restored should we have been damaged by evil. And to Heaven, those who are hurt by evil or even seen as Souls' who actually do it ... are all seen as individuals who are hurting in the worst way "and in need to repair. Also, do you honestly think Jesus would have asked us to forgive, serve and Love one another without hesitation" if Heaven does not do that as well? Think about it.

"Understand, God has a perfect system of justice. What comes around, always goes around. No one ever gets away with anything. I can promise you that! What we do not rectify and make right in this life, we will have to accomplish in the next one. The great Christian teacher from India, Paramahansa Yogananda, believes that Heaven does not usually allow us to remember former incarnations because of the challenging Karma we may have endured before. He says, there is no greater "hell" than the hell we create for ourselves though the perpetration of unloving behavior. The energy of such deeds always comes to find us in later lives.

"When we have learned how to become individuals that base our entire existence and consciousness around manifesting LOVE, we then become capable of entering the domain of the higher Realms of Heaven while also understanding how Heaven thinks. In the Bible, it is written, "Our thoughts are not like God's thoughts" and our ways are not like God's ways." And without the energy of Love permeating our being fully, we will never even come close to thinking like God." (Christian Andreason)

I am a Hebraic Roots Universalist Christian Mystic who has to admit.......
that it seems that a higher percentage of Satanists understand eventual Universal Salvation......
than my Christian brothers and sisters do!

Luke 16:8

"And the lord commended the unjust steward, because he had done wisely: for the children of this world are in their generation wiser than the children of light."

1Corinthians 1:26

"For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wisemen after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:"
 

DennisTate

Active Member
I am rabidly Universalist..... and I think that near death experiencer Guy VanHorn McLain gave a message that within five centuries may be up there with the Jewish and Christian scriptures.


Guy VanHorn-McLain:
" For I have built my new kingdom already! and positioned my Seraphym at the borders! For old ways weather away like water washed stone. My new promised land claims are all in your hearts who seek my kingdom or earthly borders crumble and fences errode. But my kingdom shall not errode and my borders grow broader. Seek you first My kingdom or else you pioneer in vain." This is a new word I bring from the Most High. The Ancient of days decrees this and so it shall be !!!!"


Guy VanHorn-McLain:
"I see the walls crumble and the gulf around the inner wall fills with cooled stone. Every light ever created by god will be redeemed by the act of His Son who he had sent to us. There should be no more attachment to the Idea that if we make mistakes we will end up in a Gulag. That is man's ways Not I Am's The Ancient of Days"


Guy VanHorn-McLain:
"The Daemon will shed his clothes of torment and be offered vestures of gold and light. And Be healed from the wounds created by the father of all lies who tricked each aND EVERY ONE OF THEM. tHE fALLEN ONES RISE AGAIN AND SERVE IN love"

Rabbi Judah ben Samuel stated that 1917, 1967 and 2017 would be Jubilee years.........
I ran into some information a few months ago that I believe helps to explain the type of Jubilee that is happening behind the scenes this year.........

From another forum:
"My abusers told me that the cult named Satanism is ending and that I was a ritual sacrifice to end Satanism. They said that Second Life was connected to Satanism and so was Disney. They said it was created by a man years ago and that it was running the world in a way. They said that was why there was evil references in the Disney movies and there was racism and things still in Disney. They said they did cult worship of the Devil which included human sacrifice. They said there was more than a thousand people in Satanism. They said that they were becoming Christians but that I was a last sacrifice and that I had been a sacrifice to the Devil. They said they killed many people in the whole of Satanism. They said they mislead people more and that the Sims is also connected to Satanism. They said it effected foreign policy too. They said that I was a sacrifice to the Devil to heal Satanism. They said that they had to seriously torture someone to show their pain and then they would heal that person. They said more people were associated with my kidnapping and torture than I am aware of. They said that all Satanist would be becoming Christian and that there were several movies out about the change from Satanism to Christianity and two of them are Moana and Elena of Avalor. I am still distraught and do not understand why they told me all that but I do believe Satanism is ending and that there will be changes in the world because of it."
 

Kapalika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Well said......
Satanists who understand eventual Universal Salvation......
and many do.......
would tend to want to go to a much higher approach to their religion than one that is filled with
hate and pride.

Spirituality
Christian Andreason, chapter 3:



I am a Hebraic Roots Universalist Christian Mystic who has to admit.......
that it seems that a higher percentage of Satanists understand eventual Universal Salvation......
than my Christian brothers and sisters do!

Luke 16:8

"And the lord commended the unjust steward, because he had done wisely: for the children of this world are in their generation wiser than the children of light."

1Corinthians 1:26

"For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wisemen after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:"

Well uh, I'm also Hindu so it has more to do with that. Although we don't call it "salvation" but "liberation" (Moksha in Sanskrit).

Of those Hindus who do believe in hells, they are temporary places. I don't believe in hells, at least in any literal sense. Nor do I believe in good or evil. My blend of Satanism and Trika (commonly called by the misnomer Kashmir Shaivism) is perhaps unique; there are a small amount of Shakta Satanists but Shaivite Satanists, I've never known of any others. Not many people, even Hindus, are generally aware of Trika as it was underground for 800 years and only came out a lifetime ago. I;ts a very specific form of Shaivism that is rare.

As for the things you quoted, honestly I don't have much interest in them and from what I skimmed I didn't see much relevance but I can see the relevance of the first verse which is actually mildly interesting. I might do a little research on that later to figure out what the meaning was if I still feel inclined, if not just to use it in future debates. I don't believe in the christian bible though, just to be clear.
 

DennisTate

Active Member
Well uh, I'm also Hindu so it has more to do with that. Although we don't call it "salvation" but "liberation" (Moksha in Sanskrit).

Of those Hindus who do believe in hells, they are temporary places. I don't believe in hells, at least in any literal sense. Nor do I believe in good or evil. My blend of Satanism and Trika (commonly called by the misnomer Kashmir Shaivism) is perhaps unique; there are a small amount of Shakta Satanists but Shaivite Satanists, I've never known of any others. Not many people, even Hindus, are generally aware of Trika as it was underground for 800 years and only came out a lifetime ago. I;ts a very specific form of Shaivism that is rare.

As for the things you quoted, honestly I don't have much interest in them and from what I skimmed I didn't see much relevance but I can see the relevance of the first verse which is actually mildly interesting. I might do a little research on that later to figure out what the meaning was if I still feel inclined, if not just to use it in future debates. I don't believe in the christian bible though, just to be clear.


Thank you immensely for having a look at that........
I also have another quotation that I suspect you will find intriguing:

Forgotten Books of Eden: First Book of Adam and Eve

Chapter XVII - The Chapter of the Serpent.

1 The Adam and Eve came out at the mouth of the cave, and went towards the garden. 2 But as they went near it, before the western gate, from which Satan came when he deceived Adam and Eve, they found the serpent that became Satan coming at the gate, and sorrowfully licking the dust, and wiggling on its breast on the ground, by reason of the curse that fell on it from God. 3 And whereas before the serpent was the most exalted of all beasts, now it was changed and become slippery, and the meanest of them all, and it crept on its breast and went on its belly. 4 And whereas it was the fairest of all beasts, it had been changed, and was become the ugliest of them all. Instead of feeding on the best food, now it turned to eat the dust. Instead of living, as before, in the best places, now it lived in the dust. 5 And, whereas it had been the most beautiful of all beasts, all of which stood dumb at its beauty, it was now abhorred of them. 6 And, again, whereas it lived in one beautiful home, to which all other animals came from elsewhere; and where it drank, they drank also of the same; now, after it had become venomous, by reason of God's curse, all beasts fled from its home, and would not drink of the water it drank; but fled from it.

Chapter XVIII - The mortal combat with the serpent.

1 When the accursed serpent saw Adam and Eve, it swelled its head, stood on its tail, and with eyes blood- red, acted like it would kill them. 2 It made straight for Eve, and ran after her; while Adam standing by, cried because he had no stick in his hand with which to hit the serpent, and did not know how to put it to death. 3 But with a heart burning for Eve, Adam approached the serpent, and held it by the tail; when it turned towards him and said to him: -- 4 "O Adam, because of you and of Eve, I am slippery, and go on my belly." Then with its great strength, it threw down Adam and Eve and squeezed them, and tried to kill them. 5 But God sent an angel who threw the serpent away from them, and raised them up. 6 Then the Word of God came to the serpent, and said to it, "The first time I made you slick, and made you to go on your belly; but I did not deprive you of speech. 7 This time, however, you will be mute, and you and your race will speak no more; because, the first time My creatures were ruined because of you, and this time you tried to kill them." 8 Then the serpent was struck mute, and was no longer able to speak. 9 And a wind blew down from heaven by the command of God and carried away the serpent from Adam and Eve, and threw it on the seashore where it landed in India.

What we may have here......
is a conflict between two species......
humans and reptilians, perhaps the walking serpent of Eden... .looked like a Raptor???

But... the fallen angel who took temporary possession of the Raptor of Eden......
due to that Raptors envy / jealousy.......
actually did what needed to be done to decrease the power that the reptilian species had in four dimensional space - time??????
 

DennisTate

Active Member
This is a message supposedly originally heard by Didymus Judas Thomas, Doubting Thomas.......
who is said to have died in India......

Untitled Document

The Father said to me one evening in my time of meditation, “You wonder that people other than the Jews have the secrets of the Kingdom as well as you. As you have been instructed before, the secrets of the Kingdom have been given to many people, but to no one in their complete form, so that each, seeking in their own way, may gradually come closer to me, but no one group can say, ‘I have the secret and you are excluded.’ Indeed, any who say that, have already put themselves outside of the Kingdom, because the Kingdom comes by Love, and Love is a working together. Love is not exclusively for one group.”

“In the end of the Age, peoples from all parts of the earth will bring their knowledge together and will find the Inner Way to me by working together. So, read and know what has been given to others, that your knowledge may be complete and you may be able to come to Me, all working together in Love.”



So I continue my work among these people and grow to love them in the years I have been here. I learn their language and teach them and learn also from them. And from day to day I learn more from the Father of the celestial which is at the heart of our lives.

Now there is no fear, even though I am in disfavor with the authorities of the temples here. These people also have priests who seek to enslave, and they resent my coming here to teach a way of freedom and love and mercy. So perhaps I, too, will find an end like many of the followers of the Christ before me.

But I do not fear now, and I know that in life or death I will not be separated from the Father who is within.

That is my story of the Christ — not a birth and not a death, but a life which is within us. There is no doctrine and no law, but only the search within and the guidance of the Christ and the Father. What may come at the end of the age I have not been given to know, but it, too, will arise from Love and the fulfilling of the life of Love in the world." (Bruce F. MacDonald Ph. D.)

If I remember correctly.....
Doubting Thomas, Judas Didymus Thomas, the twin brother of Rabbi Yeshua - Jesus... .was given this message while he was in India.
 

DennisTate

Active Member
So first off: I had thought Satanists got all prickly when someone tried to tell them what is or is not the way of the Satanist. :p



And minor tribes, and family groups, and racism, and identity politics, and everything else under the sun. Tribalism is rooted in a lot of things. One must not underestimate it, especially with just how tied in Tribalism is with these topics of Love and Hate you bring up.

Love and Hate themselves are emotions that are tightly intertwined. Truly you can't Hate a thing unless it is at least a potential threat in your mind to something you Love. Hate is just then an extension of Love, and this is the basis of Human Tribalism. Tribalism evolved from scarcity of resources. The love one felt for those within their tribe translated to hate to everyone outside of their tribe, because the out-group posed a threat to your loved ones because they could potentially take the resources your loved ones needed to survive.

Thus humans evolved love and its counterpart hate, to aid survival and propagation.

But you can see this Love-Hate-Tribe dichotomy in most things. Why do terrorists hate the West?? Because they view it as a threat to the people they love. Why do people in the West hate those terrorists?? The same reason. Why does one hate a political ideology?? Because they see it as a threat to their loved ones in their own political ideology.

In many spiritual traditions, you see an attempt to eschew Hate and Love then, with Taoism teaching ideals of "Joy, anger, sorrow, happiness find no place in that man's breast; for to him all creation is one", or the Baha'i Faith which states that "that every redness in the world is from [the lover's] anger, and every paleness in men’s cheeks is from his poison. He yieldeth no remedy but death, he walketh not save in the valley of the shadow;" and instructs that a spiritual seeker should "shut the door of friendliness and enmity upon all the people of the earth" treating all people as neither friend nor enemy.

From the given quote, it seems LaVey has made the same observation: That one's Love causes one to know Hate as well. It seems that where other spiritual paths thus promote the idea of liberating oneself from both Love and Hate, LaVey just saw it as inevitable and advocated trying to Love and Hate the "right people". I'd think that view misguided, as it's just, as you point out, a continuation of tribalism and the tribal instinct.

Ultimately it seems like LaVey came to the realization that in order to get rid of hate one would also need to get rid of love, and unwilling to make that sacrifice thus tried to promote some sort of "appropriate outlet" for hatred, an embrace of tribalism so he could continue to cling to the love-side of tribalistic instinct.

Extremely well said.......
From what I have read the original hate that Lucifer / Satan had for
Adam and Eve and ultimately for G-d.....
originated out of passionate love that went wrong........

Ultimately the Ancient of Days the Father and the Ancient of Days the Mother, (probably the Holy Spirit of Trinity fame)...... will find a way to restore all of their children who go off into
jealousy and some variations of tribalism.......

Dr. Richard Eby's Near-Death Experience and the Second Coming of Christ

Jesus hesitated as I tried to capture the immensity of his explanations.

"You must understand, my son, that original creation mirrored the composition and perfection of Person-God. All creation vibrated in unison with us! There was total accord and harmony everywhere as the whole creation was resonating with and in God!

"Each separate thing or being thus carried out an appointed task in our scheme for the universe. A heaven-form of music resulted as even the stars sang in their appointed circuits. Here in paradise you are hearing these melodious vibrations directly upon your new mind, undistorted. On Earth you heard distorted sounds through the air waves. Throughout heaven the music flows from my throne, uninterrupted, undefiled, and peace-giving."

Jesus paused again.

"My book tells of the time when Lucifer's rebellion in heaven changed some things. He sought to usurp my Father's throne, assume his position as the most high God, and to rule the universe. For that blasphemy Lucifer was cast from heaven to Earth; in fact, I saw him fall as a bolt of lightning! In a tantrum of hate and rage over being deposed so fast he and his fallen angels disfigured our perfect Earth. It became void and uninhabitable. For punishment befitting his enemy of God, Lucifer was given a new name, Satan, since he was the self-appointed 'adversary' of the Almighty. Anything that God had made, Satan would attempt to destroy from then on. As Lucifer he had been created the highest angel about the throne, one of his assignments and talents being the chief musician in charge of worship and music. In his rebellious anger he set about destroying harmony on and in the Earth from then on. That is why the Earth where he operates now is out of harmony with God's other creations. In my book we call this disharmony 'sin', because it defies God's will that even the heavens declare the glory of God and the firmament show his handiwork.

"But be of good cheer, my son. The Father has permitted me to overcome Satan's world system of sin, and to destroy the works of Satan, and to re-establish righteousness in the hearts of my friends. Eventually in his chosen time he will restore all creation as it once was, in him!"
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
Ultimately it seems like LaVey came to the realization that in order to get rid of hate one would also need to get rid of love, and unwilling to make that sacrifice thus tried to promote some sort of "appropriate outlet" for hatred, an embrace of tribalism so he could continue to cling to the love-side of tribalistic instinct.
LaVey never seemed to have suggested or hinted at getting rid of either, but rather he pointed out the folly of loving your enemy, for if you love them then you are wasting it and not placing it "more fully" upon those who deserve it.
From what I have read the original hate that Lucifer / Satan had for
Adam and Eve and ultimately for G-d.....
Satanists don't believe Satan hated humans. Most of them don't even believe the devil or god exists, and outright reject the Abrahamic account of Creation.
Satanism--and the Left Handed Path in general--has nothing to do with a "salvation" that revolves around eternal redemption and paradise. It is empower and embracing the Self, to the point that often it rejects worship, unity, and reliance upon a god. Satanism, despite its labels, from the perspective of most adherents cannot be understood from an Abrahamic perspective. We don't want your god's concept and ideas of salvation, and we tend to view him as a brutal, cruel, merciless, and unreasonable tyrant. He created us to serve him, and Satan set us free from the iron fist of God.
 

DennisTate

Active Member
LaVey never seemed to have suggested or hinted at getting rid of either, but rather he pointed out the folly of loving your enemy, for if you love them then you are wasting it and not placing it "more fully" upon those who deserve it.

Satanists don't believe Satan hated humans. Most of them don't even believe the devil or god exists, and outright reject the Abrahamic account of Creation.
Satanism--and the Left Handed Path in general--has nothing to do with a "salvation" that revolves around eternal redemption and paradise. It is empower and embracing the Self, to the point that often it rejects worship, unity, and reliance upon a god. Satanism, despite its labels, from the perspective of most adherents cannot be understood from an Abrahamic perspective. We don't want your god's concept and ideas of salvation, and we tend to view him as a brutal, cruel, merciless, and unreasonable tyrant. He created us to serve him, and Satan set us free from the iron fist of God.


Interesting.........
one particular near death experiencer was shown that there are 14 Elohim......
seven female and seven male......
and every human soul ultimately goes back to one of the 14 Elohim........

Spirituality

The Man on the Throne

There was a moment during my experience where I saw myself approaching what looked to be a gigantic, magnificent man, sitting on a alabaster throne. Thru a kind of veil that was partially covering him, I was able to detect that he had very stunning chiseled features. In fact, he was so perfect looking, he almost looked statuesque.

The man was wearing what appeared to be a gleaming white robe and I saw that he had the most fantastic muscular body. It was not large and gross, but truly beautiful and symmetrical. The man's arm was resting on a flat smooth surface that was part of the throne, and when he would move his hand (even the slightest amount) a musical, sparkling rainbow colored essence would fall out and away from within his robe, eventually creating a pool of Light around his feet on the floor.

Initially, the thought that came into my mind that I was seeing God! But then, as soon as I thought this, very quickly, it was revealed to me that this thought was only partially true.

It was immediately made known to me that the physical form I was observing was actually an astral version of "me" in Spirit form, as God saw me existing as already!

I heard inside my mind, "This is your Higher Self." As I looked deeply into this beings eyes, I saw my own reflection and realized that the "inner voice" I had been hearing my whole life (as the voice of my own conscience) had actually been guidance coming for this personage−−who still resides in Heaven in a greater degree of wholeness and Light than I do here on Earth. In fact, I realized that I had only taken a very small portion of my Higher Self's Light with me for my journey here this go round. By doing this I would be encouraged to dig deeper and develop my faith and intuition; and secondly, I do not see how my human brain really could have tolerated too much more Light, as I believe now it would caused my body and mind to short circuit." (Christian Andreason, chapter 2)


Genesis 1:26


And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them."

I suspect that what she was shown about there being 14 Elohim.....
could correspond with the Seven Spirits of G-d mentioned in several
places in the Jewish and Christian scriptures.


Rev 1:4

John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace beunto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
That is, in fact, exactly what I said.

Welcome to RF, where the people who reply to your comments don't read those comments.
It's called a rebuttal. You said something that I disagreed with, the point over LeVay allegedly having a realization that included getting rid of either hate or love. It doesn't mean I didn't read your post, it means I disagreed with that part.
Spirituality


Genesis 1:26


And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them."

I suspect that what she was shown about there being 14 Elohim.....
could correspond with the Seven Spirits of G-d mentioned in several
places in the Jewish and Christian scriptures.


Rev 1:4

John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace beunto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;
None of that holds any relevancy in Satanism. It's on par with trying to explain the world and offering evidence of god to an atheist by using the Bible. It's no different than if you quoted from the Iliad or Shakespeare or Mein Kampf. To a Satanist, the Bible holds no spiritual or religious knowledge, wisdom, or guidance.
Interesting.........
one particular near death experiencer was shown that there are 14 Elohim......
seven female and seven male......
and every human soul ultimately goes back to one of the 14 Elohim........
How is that relevant? That is what you believe. It has no bearing in Satanism.
 

Sanzbir

Well-Known Member
It's called a rebuttal. You said something that I disagreed with, the point over LeVay allegedly having a realization that included getting rid of either hate or love. It doesn't mean I didn't read your post, it means I disagreed with that part.

Well again. I didn't say that.

So it is a "rebuttal" to nothing I said. :p

And you think it is a rebuttal to something I said that you disagreed with. :D

And since I didn't say that thing you disagreed with, that pretty much means you didn't read my post. :p

But again. This is Religious Forums!! And I've learned by now that expecting someone to make the tiny effort to read before they comment is an unrealistic expectation. :p I've now come to expect comments like yours who make huge mistakes simply because they didn't read the post.
 

DennisTate

Active Member
It's called a rebuttal. You said something that I disagreed with, the point over LeVay allegedly having a realization that included getting rid of either hate or love. It doesn't mean I didn't read your post, it means I disagreed with that part.

None of that holds any relevancy in Satanism. It's on par with trying to explain the world and offering evidence of god to an atheist by using the Bible. It's no different than if you quoted from the Iliad or Shakespeare or Mein Kampf. To a Satanist, the Bible holds no spiritual or religious knowledge, wisdom, or guidance.

How is that relevant? That is what you believe. It has no bearing in Satanism.

IF...... The Book of Adam and Eve......
......
that was preserved into our time period only in Arabic.......
due to my thoroughly ignorant Christian ancestors burning all copies in all other languages.......
is up there with scripture or at least with the Apocrypha.....
then what I wrote is highly relevant......

I will try to get back online soon to explain more on what I mean by this.....

The Apocalypse of Moses will also be helpful.......... not to mention the Testament of Solomon.....
 
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