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HaShem & Allah: Identical, substantially the same, or substantially different?

Discussion in 'Invitation Only Debates Discussion' started by Terry Sampson, Nov 24, 2019.

  1. Terry Sampson

    Terry Sampson ζει

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    Your position is clear: that Muhammed had high moral standards, represented HaShem fairly and accurately, and was a Prophet of God.

    My response:
    • For the record, I predict that this thread isn't going to end well.
    • At best, I'll concede that Muhammed is Allah's prophet and may have represented Allah "fairly and accurately". But I won't concede that he is Ha-Shem's prophet and/or Messenger and that he represented Ha-Shem fairly and accurately.
    • What makes this thread intriguing to me is that my beliefs, as a Gentile Christian, survive the absence of Allah, but your beliefs, as a Baha'i, depend on the interchangeability of the names for your god, Muhammed, and a non-trinitarian Jesus, because without them--if I'm not mistaken--your Baha'i beliefs cannot stand.
    • There's a non-trinitarian Jesus that Jews might be able to recognize and make room for without worshiping him. But there's no room in Judaism or Christianity for Islam's non-trinitarian Jesus And I'd be closer to HaShem and Jesus than a Baha'i will ever be to Islam's Muhammed or a non-trinitarian Jesus.
     
    #21 Terry Sampson, Nov 27, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2019
  2. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    Hi Terry,

    I’m not sure what you mean by this thread is not going to end well. I think its been excellent so far and if at anytime either of us want to pull out, that’s fine too.

    For the record, I consider myself much closer to Christianity than either Islam or Judaism. It is the religion I grew up with and returned to in my early 20s. Most people I know who are practising a religion are Christian and I do volunteer work at a Christian Medical Centre.

    The Baha’i position on Christianity according to Shoghi Effendi:

    As to the position of Christianity, let it be stated without any hesitation or equivocation that its divine origin is unconditionally acknowledged, that the Sonship and Divinity of Jesus Christ are fearlessly asserted, that the divine inspiration of the Gospel is fully recognized, that the reality of the mystery of the Immaculacy of the Virgin Mary is confessed, and the primacy of Peter, the Prince of the Apostles, is upheld and defended.

    There is no mention of the trinity in there. As far as I’m aware the Baha’i Faith neither rejects nor affirms the doctrine of the trinity. The key elements of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are an essential part of my faith but its up to each of us to make sense of it. We’re not obliged to follow a church position that was formulated in the 4th century. I have no idea as to its true value in assisting us understand the nature God.

    What I do know is when any Christian doctrine is used to essentially say “I’m right and your wrong”, or “this is my God and you believe in another God”, it is a huge turn off for me personally and usually a red flag that discussion and dialogue are unlikely to go far.

    So I wonder if what you’re really saying to me is I don’t believe in the God you believe in. If so, that’s fine and I’m happy to give our discussion a rest for now. Best wishes and thanks.
    Adrian
     
  3. Terry Sampson

    Terry Sampson ζει

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    I simply predicted that this thread is not going to end well.
    It will end with fundamental, irreconcilable differences that, until given sufficient expression are fuzzy.
    The irreconcilable differences necessarily exist between anyone who believes that Ha-Shem and Allah are not the same entity and anyone who believes that they are one and the same entity. I have hidden nothing. If you'll remember, I actually stated in the OP:
    and:
    and in my post #10:
    Rest assured: I do not doubt that you believe in one God who has two interchangeable names: Allah and HaShem.
    But, without a doubt in my mind, you and I do not believe in the same god. And that, IMO, is the thread's end that I predicted. Best wishes and thanks.
     
  4. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    Hi Terry,

    I agree our views are irreconcilable, but then again were either of us trying to reconcile them? We've both presented rationale for what we sincerely believe and that is sufficient. I don't see you have tried to hide anything and hope you don't feel I have either.

    All the best
    Adrian
     
  5. Terry Sampson

    Terry Sampson ζει

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    I don't.
     
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