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Has sexual selection been refuted?

A 2008 study has found that the colouful tail feathers of peacocks offer no mating advantage. This data has contradicted the sexual selection theory.

The Myth of Sexual Selection
by Joan roughgarden

California Wild Summer 2005 - the Myth of Sexual Selection

Presents an alternative to sexual selection known as "social selection".

The Gay Animal Kingdom § SEEDMAGAZINE.COM

Joan Roughgarden thinks Charles Darwin made a terrible mistake. Not about natural selection—she’s no bible-toting creationist—but about his other great theory of evolution: sexual selection. According to Roughgarden, sexual selection can’t explain the homosexuality that’s been documented in over 450 different vertebrate species. This means that same-sex sexuality—long disparaged as a quirk of human culture—is a normal, and probably necessary, fact of life. By neglecting all those gay animals, she says, Darwin misunderstood the basic nature of heterosexuality.


http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Social_selection

In her book The Genial Gene: Deconstructing Darwinian Selfishness (2009) the case against sexual selection theory is continued by Roughgarden and social selection is presented as an alternative. The book lists 26 phenomena not explained by the current sexual-selection theory that are better explained by social selection. According to Roughgarden, sexual selection derives from a view of natural behavior predicated on the selfish-gene concept, competition and deception, whereas the social selection derives from teamwork, honesty, and genetic equality.


Any opinions on her alternative known as "social selection"?
 

Iti oj

Global warming is real and we need to act
Premium Member
I read about a study done with swallows. Where the females were attracted to males with tail extensions even if the lenght of the tale hurt the.ability to fly. So.natural selection was shortebibg tails while sexual selection was pushing for longer tails. What we see is tails of medium length... also i think i see sexual selection st work especially in sexual selection. It may have even played a role in humanz becoming hairless.
 

tumbleweed41

Resident Liberal Hippie
Sexual selection is one of of the many mechanisms of evolutionary biology.

Whether a change in allele frequency benefits an organism or not, it is still evolution.
 

Iti oj

Global warming is real and we need to act
Premium Member
I also fail to see how bisexuality harms the concept of sexual selection. Look at baboons on reasons and advantages for evolving bisexuality.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Sexual selection refuted? I completely agree. I, for one, have never selected a mate based on traits that personally appeal to me. Nor has anyone that I know of. :facepalm:
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I read about a study done with swallows. Where the females were attracted to males with tail extensions even if the lenght of the tale hurt the.ability to fly. So.natural selection was shortebibg tails while sexual selection was pushing for longer tails. What we see is tails of medium length... also i think i see sexual selection st work especially in sexual selection. It may have even played a role in humanz becoming hairless.
Perhaps sexual selection is still going on, but the researcher who claims otherwise just missed the mechanism.
A seemingly dysfunctional feature like uber-long tail feathers would signal superior health, having the resources
& vigor to grow a somewhat handicapping feature. Evolutionary biology can get complicated, eh?
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Rigid sexual roles are not required for sexual selection to work, so long as there is an oppotunity for a "wee wee" to find itself in a "woo woo" the game is on, the species continues.:rolleyes:
Why on Earth would you use a juvenile term like "woo woo" to describe a hoo hah?
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I don't see how this article refutes sexual selection. It just mentions other mechanisms.
Sexual selection has been demonstrated countless times, easily enough to be a simple high school biology demo.
 

painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
There are just as many example supporting sexual selection as refuting it.

Not every trait is selected for via. hard sexual selection... but that doesn't mean that no traits are. Very few traits serve a single purpose (sex) most pull double (sex,social signal) or triple (sex, social and defense) duty.

Sexual selection is not in any danger of being demoted.

As you say, evolution is complicated.

Sexual selection is simply one of many selective pressures at work. In some cases it's more powerful than in others and in many cases it has nothing or little to do with it. But that doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

Some recent papers supporting sexual selection:
SEXUAL SELECTION AFFECTS THE EVOLUTION OF LIFESPAN AND AGEING IN THE DECORATED CRICKET GRYLLODES SIGILLATUS - Archer - 2012 - Evolution - Wiley Online Library
SEXUAL SELECTION ACCOUNTS FOR THE GEOGRAPHIC REVERSAL OF SEXUAL SIZE DIMORPHISM IN THE DUNG FLY, SEPSIS PUNCTUM (DIPTERA: SEPSIDAE) - Puniamoorthy - 2012 - Evolution - Wiley Online Library
Male house mice evolving with post-copulatory sexual selection sire embryos with increased viability - Firman - 2011 - Ecology Letters - Wiley Online Library
The form of sexual selection arising from male–male competition depends on the presence of females in the social environment - PROCTER - 2012 - Journal of Evolutionary Biology - Wiley Online Library

wa:do
 
I think that Joan Roughgarden has lost it, some strange stuff here:

The resulting book, Evolution’s Rainbow, was an audacious attack on Darwin’s theory of sexual selection. To make her case, Roughgarden filled the text with a staggering collection of animal perversities, from the penises of female spotted hyenas to the mènage à trois tactics of bluegill sunfish. As Roughgarden put it, “What’s coming out [in the past 10-15 years] is to the rest of the species what the Kinsey Report was to humans.”

According to Roughgarden, classic sexual selection can’t account for these strange carnal habits. After all, Darwin imagined sex as a relatively straightforward transaction. Males compete for females. Evolutionary success is defined by the quantity of offspring. Thus, any distractions from the business of making babies—distractions like homosexuality, masturbation, etc.—are precious wastes of fluids. You’d think by now, several hundred million years after sex began, nature would have done away with such inefficiencies, and males and females would only act to maximize rates of sexual reproduction.

But the opposite has happened. Instead of copulation becoming more functional and straightforward, it has only gotten weirder as species have evolved—more sodomy and other frivolous pleasures that are useless for propagating the species. The more socially complex the animal, the more sexual “deviance” it exhibits. Look at primates: Compared to our closest relatives, contemporary, Westernized Homo sapiens are the staid ones.

Despite this new evidence, sexual selection theory is still stuck in the 19th century. The Victorian peacock remains the standard bearer. But as far as Roughgarden is concerned, that’s bad science: “The time has come to declare that sexual theory is indeed false and to stop shoe-horning one exception after another into a sexual selection framework…To do otherwise suggests that sexual selection theory is unfalsifiable, not subject to refutation.”

Roughgarden is an ambitious scientist. She believes it is impossible to comprehend the diversity of sexuality without disowning Darwin. Although she isn’t the first biologist to condemn sexual selection—Darwin’s theory has never been very popular with feminists—she is unusually vocal about cataloguing his empirical errors. “When I began, I didn’t set out to criticize Darwin,” she says. “But I quickly realized that most scientists are pretty dismissive about same-sex sexuality in vertebrates. They think these animals are just having fun or practicing. As long as scientists clung to this old dogma, homosexuality would always be this funny anomaly you didn’t have to account for.”

Roughgarden’s first order of business was proving that homosexuality isn’t a maladaptive trait. At first glance, this seems like a futile endeavor. Being gay clearly makes individuals less likely to pass on their genes, a major biological faux pas. From the perspective of evolution, homosexual behavior has always been a genetic dead end, something that has to be explained away.

But Roughgarden believes that biologists have it backwards. Given the pervasive presence of homosexuality throughout the animal kingdom, same-sex partnering must be an adaptive trait that’s been carefully preserved by natural selection. As Roughgarden points out, “a ‘common genetic disease’ is a contradiction in terms, and homosexuality is three to four orders of magnitude more common than true genetic diseases such as Huntington’s disease.”

The Gay Animal Kingdom § SEEDMAGAZINE.COM
 

Iti oj

Global warming is real and we need to act
Premium Member
Perhaps sexual selection is still going on, but the researcher who claims otherwise just missed the mechanism.
A seemingly dysfunctional feature like uber-long tail feathers would signal superior health, having the resources
& vigor to grow a somewhat handicapping feature. Evolutionary biology can get complicated, eh?
I think its fascinating and awe inspiring. The rainbow may have been unweaved but its even grander then i saw. =D
 

FunctionalAtheist

Hammer of Reason
A 2008 study has found that the colouful tail feathers of peacocks offer no mating advantage. This data has contradicted the sexual selection theory.

The Myth of Sexual Selection
by Joan roughgarden

California Wild Summer 2005 - the Myth of Sexual Selection

Presents an alternative to sexual selection known as "social selection".
Wow, the mere fact that you can present this aritcle as 'a study' raises serious doubts as to your credibility.

According to this model, passionate males with cheap sperm pursue coy females with expensive eggs. Females look for males with the best genes, whereas males want to fertilize as many females as possible. Genetically superior males distinguish themselves as the winners of male-male combat, as with jousting elk, or by having the most expensive and beautiful ornaments, as among peacocks. These male and female profiles, together with the cheap sperm/expensive egg rationale, comprise what biologists call "sexual-selection theory." Throughout nature, it would seem, delicate discerning damsels welcome horny handsome warriors to bed.
This is rubbish.
Just the 'this is rubbish" quote alone would have this paper rejected in it's entirety by any reputable peer review journal. LOL not to mention the rediculousness of pronouncing this description of sexual selextion as 'rubish.' BTW, social selecion is not a new concept. If you read the article, you will see that the 'finding' that peacock tails offer no mating advantage, basically goes like this. Oh poppycock, it's obvioiulsy a bade of male-male interaction. Yes, that's a finding all right.
 

FunctionalAtheist

Hammer of Reason
The problem is, is that there are 1000s of examples in nature which contradict sexual selection, please read here for an overview:

California Wild Summer 2005 - the Myth of Sexual Selection
Again, tis is not a study. It is a review of some examples. It talks about alga and othe forms of non-sexually reproducing organisms to disprove sexual selection. That is ludacris. Sexual selection has never set itself up as 'the only way' natural selection works, only as one of many, many processes. There are examples from some sexually reproducing species. Again, sexual selection has never been thought to be the only mechanism of selection. Even when sexual selection does occure in a species, it is still not the only mechanism that occurs.

A million examples of sexual selection not happening, would still be zero evidence to reject sexual selection. That's like saying, "Look, a cat. Look, another cat. Ah I told you dogs don't exist."

Natural selection occurs when any reproductive advantage/disadvantage is both heriditary and variable, and related to some limited resource.
 
Wow, the mere fact that you can present this aritcle as 'a study' raises serious doubts as to your credibility.


Why not try reading what I actually wrote? Nowhere did I state the article by Roughgarden is a study (firstly it is an article), and the links I put up were not from 2008. This should have been obvious.


The study is mentioned in one of the links, the links serve as an overview of the subject, it was a 2008 study which has found that the tail feathers offer no mating advantage on peacocks, this refutes the typical sexual selection theory.


Perhaps it was my mistake of not citing the actual source of this paper, here it is:


Mariko Takahashi et al "Peahens do not prefer Peacocks with more Elaborate Trains," Animal Behaviour 75: 1209-1219 (2008)


Jean Roughgarden comments on this study in her book The Genial Gene: Deconstructing Darwinian Selfishness. On page 37 in the chapter titled The Case against Sexual Selection she writes:


In early 2008, a remarkable study appeared refuting the standard sexual-selection narrative for the ultimate poster child of sexual selection, the peacock and peahen. The authors state that the elaborate train of the peack "is thought to have evolved in response to female mate choice and may be an indicator of good genes" Nonetheless, after studying a feral population of Indian peafowl in Japan for over 7 years, the authors conclude that: "We found no evidence that peahens expressed any preference for peacocks with more elaborate trains ... similar to other studies of galliforms showing that females disregard male plumage.


Combined with previous results, our findings indicate that the peacock's train (1) is not the universal target of female choice, (2) shows small variance among males across populations and (3) based on current physiological knowledge, does not appear to reliably reflect the male condition" In addition to presenting their own data, they review the many studies that report contradictory results with peacocks, with those in the United Kingdom generally supporting the sexual-selection narrative, while those elsewhere do not.

They comment that "positive results are likely to be published and distributed in the research field of sexual selection" and caution that "it is equally important to publish negative results" this raising sucpicion of a publication bias
favouring sexual selection in behavioral-ecology research.


Her books also list 100s of other examples which contradict the sexual selection theory.


Just the 'this is rubbish" quote alone would have this paper rejected in it's entirety by any reputable peer review journal


Firstly it is not a paper, it was a magazine article which appeared in an issue of the California Academy of Sciences.


Secondly Roughgarden has published peer-reviewed papers describing her theory of social selection with long criticisms of sexual selection. These can easily be found on the internet. I admit Roughgarden has some odd views and I do not endorse them, but there are holes in the sexual selection theory, and it is always interesting to read about alternative theories in science.


Again, sexual selection has never been thought to be the only mechanism of selection.


And nobody is saying it is, not even Roughgarden.
 

Falvlun

Earthbending Lemur
Premium Member
I don't see how this article refutes sexual selection. It just mentions other mechanisms.
Sexual selection has been demonstrated countless times, easily enough to be a simple high school biology demo.

That's true.

Though, it is interesting since the peacock has been held up as the poster child for sexual selection. What should we use now? /existential crisis
 
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