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Featured Has science proven there is no "free will"?

Discussion in 'Science and Religion' started by firedragon, Jul 24, 2021.

?
  1. Yes

  2. No

  3. Dont know

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  1. Liesl Hallman

    Liesl Hallman Member

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    These are all good points and I for one know the difference between in action and pro action and also victim and bully
     
  2. Liesl Hallman

    Liesl Hallman Member

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    We say blame someone else for you and that you are special
     
  3. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    Pretty well said I believe. Really appreciate it.
     
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  4. ecco

    ecco Veteran Member

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    No. It means that out of all the possible decisions - ONE was made. Someone in the future looking back can look at that decision-making process and understand what went into making that decision.

    Our present follows the present of 1945.
    A question in 1945 was whether or not to use the A-Bomb on Japan.
    A decision was made to drop an A-Bomb on Japan.
    That decision is now reflected in our past.
     
  5. mikkel_the_dane

    mikkel_the_dane Shadow Wolf's Aspie sibling

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    You haven¨t establish what an "I" is? Or what consciousness is?
     
  6. Nakosis

    Nakosis Time Efficient Lollygagger
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    Ok, "I" for my comment, refers to the individual that makes the decision. Consciousness is simply awareness. In this case, the individual "I" being aware of the process of making a decision.
     
  7. mikkel_the_dane

    mikkel_the_dane Shadow Wolf's Aspie sibling

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    So you are taking for granted that there is an individual. So where in the combination of nerves in a brain is the individual? All the way down to the start of a single cell to a mature brain? How can something, which is not an individual become that? The same with awareness?

    Ever come across the idea that the "I" is nothing but a story/myth, that some brains take for real just like gods? ;)
     
  8. Nakosis

    Nakosis Time Efficient Lollygagger
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    Have you never made a decision? If not, I suppose the idea might be controversial for you. Yes, I am assuming the reader would be familiar with making decisions. Of course there may be a few exceptions but unless a number of folks respond that they are clueless about the concept I think I'm safe enough believing a majority of folks comprehend the idea.
     
  9. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon shunyadragon
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    This too simplistic and fundamentally flawed. As far as Biblically as a whole you are neglecting the dominant concept of predestination, which is in direct contradiction with Free Will.

    [/quote] Free will, to make a choice without external coercion.

    Free will the ability to have made a choice other than the choice we made.

    For the first two, I'd say yes we have free will.

    For the 3rd, this seems a philosophical conundrum. Could you have made a decision other than the one you made?

    I think Libet's experiments shows that many of our choices a subconsciously driven. It doesn't prove all of them are.
    Most of the decisions we make never reach the conscious level of choice. So Libet's results are no surprise.

    However some decisions reach the conscious level which we mull over. Weigh the pros and cons. Mentally examine possible outcomes and choose whichever one bring us to our desired goal.

    To me, prior to making this conscious decision, the outcome is not determined. The conscious decision process is not an instantaneous on. It may take hours, days, weeks before we decide. What happens during this process is non-deterministic. Until we have gone through all of the reasoning, evaluated all of the possible outcomes. Exercised our imagination to the fullest, the choice has not been determined.[/QUOTE]

    This is naive view of'Libertarian Free Will that based on the contemporary knowledge of human nature and behavior is untenable.

    Biblically sinners are doomed by fate, and the chosen ones are blessed from the beginning.
     
    #89 shunyadragon, Jul 26, 2021
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2021
  10. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon shunyadragon
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    Making decisions is a given in human nature,but you have to take into consideration the restraints and limits of our decision making making process. Neither Libertarian Free Will nor predestination are viable chooses.
     
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  11. Nakosis

    Nakosis Time Efficient Lollygagger
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    So you feel the Bible has no possible interpretation which supports the concept of free will?

    I haven't made an argument for libertarian free will.

    This is only one of many interpretations of the Bible I've come across.
     
  12. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon shunyadragon
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    You would have to ignore many of explicit citations in the Bible.

    What Does the Bible Say About Predestination?

    Ephesians 1:4-5 ESV / 412 helpful votes
    Even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,

    Ephesians 1:5 ESV / 352 helpful votes
    He predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,

    Romans 8:29 ESV / 325 helpful votes
    For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

    Romans 8:28-30 ESV / 292 helpful votes
    And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

    John 15:16 ESV / 273 helpful votes
    You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you.

    John 6:44 ESV / 250 helpful votes
    No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

    2 Peter 3:9 ESV / 206 helpful votes
    The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

    2 Timothy 1:9 ESV / 202 helpful votes
    Who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began,

    Proverbs 16:4 ESV / 190 helpful votes
    The Lord has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble.

    Ephesians 1:11 ESV / 184 helpful votes
    In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,

    1 Peter 1:20 ESV / 174 helpful votes
    He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest in the last times for the sake of you

    Acts 13:48 ESV / 172 helpful votes
    And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.

    Romans 8:29-30 ESV / 149 helpful votes
    For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

    Ephesians 1:4 ESV / 142 helpful votes
    Even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love

    1 Peter 1:2 ESV / 137 helpful votes
    According to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood: May grace and peace be multiplied to you.

    Revelation 13:8 ESV / 135 helpful votes
    And all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.

    . . . and many many more from the source cited.



    The previous post I cited described 'Libertarian Free Will.'



    See above. . .
     
  13. ecco

    ecco Veteran Member

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    In the above, do we know the original language and the root for "predestined"?

    I ask because the verse could be saying: "In love he prepared us for adoption..." or "In love he readied us for adoption..."

    Words that really do not refer to predestination as we use it today.




    The CEV has it:
    4Before the world was created, God had Christ choose us to live with him and to be his holy and innocent and loving people. 5God was kind+ and decided that Christ would choose us to be God's own adopted children.

    NLT:
    4Even before he made the world, God loved us and chose us in Christ to be holy and without fault in his eyes. 5God decided in advance to adopt us into his own family by bringing us to himself through Jesus Christ.

    Neither of which use predestination.
     
    #93 ecco, Jul 27, 2021
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2021
  14. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon shunyadragon
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    I agree that individual citations have potential variations in translations and interpretations, but together with the other citations from the source describe the overwhelming theme of the Bible, and by the way the Quran is predestination.
     
  15. ecco

    ecco Veteran Member

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    OK
     
  16. Nakosis

    Nakosis Time Efficient Lollygagger
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    I don't see these implying a lack of free will, only an inability for man to save themselves without God.

    However, what about,

    Deut 30:19 This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live

    Ezekiel 18:30“Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. 31Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? 32For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent and live!
    This certainly implies man can choose

    2 Chron 12:14 And he did evil, for he did not set his heart to seek the Lord.
    "He" set his heart, not God.

    There are many verses in the Bible showing that man can choose their course in life.




    So there are different types of libertarian free will. I have yet to come across that fits with my view. However if you want to at least categories the version of libertarian free will I'm espousing, I'll review and maybe agree, or not.
    I think you might be engaged in a form of begging the question. You assume the truth of your position and interpret these verses to support a conclusion that you have already made.
     
  17. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon shunyadragon
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    Yes, humans make decisions, but the Biblical understanding is that there is the appearance of humans making choices, but the overwhelming citations indicate that this appearance of free will is an illusion. There decisions remain predestined.

    Sort of from the scientific and the dominant contemporary compatibilist philosophical view there is a degree of illusion of human making what appears to be free will, but the range of possible choices is extremely limited by many factors not with standing natural laws, evolved behavioral constraints and drives, cultural and religious 'sense of identity and belonging,' These and other factors greatly narrow the potential beyond a limited range of choices.
     
    #97 shunyadragon, Jul 28, 2021
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2021
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  18. Nakosis

    Nakosis Time Efficient Lollygagger
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    What is the point of the Bible if there is no free will? What is the point of religion if there is no free will? Are they just props for the illusion?
    Free will is God's elaborate hoax.

    I didn't presume there would be infinite choice. In fact a choice between two paths would suffice.

    However, my view is that prior to a decision being made the future is not determined. Between the point of being faced with a decision and the point of the individual making it exists many layers of reiteration involved. The outcome is not necessarily dependent on anything that happen prior to being faced with this decision. In fact, it can be caused by something that never happened prior to being faced with the decision. The determinant cause need not have happened prior to the individual being face with having to make a decision.

    Not to say the determinant cause did not happen prior to the decision being made, only that the determining factor could have happened after being face with the decision and making the decision. The cause can be created through this iteration process. Created independent of any actual past.

    Maybe this is libertarian freewill. I'm ok with that if this is what we have to call it. I've just never found an argument to fit with this view.
     
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