Has Evangelicalism Become an Essentially Negative, Fear-Based Form of Human Religiosity?

[Kenny]

I'm usually pretty careful and precise in qualifying what I say. In double checking, I was in this case as well. Perhaps you missed it where I qualified citing that saying "...granted it is old but it still carries forward into today's pulpits in its portrayal of God"?

In other words, it is current history in how evangelicals view God today. Do you believe God sends sinners to the flames of an eternal hell? Then it pertains. Right? That's fear-based. But again, that was one example, not the only one, as I was also careful to say.

Again... my point was simply that the OP mentioned modern and, as you said, Edwards is not modern.

Yes, there are people who preach fear...but I don't see it as the norm.

It reflected pretty much everything I was hearing on mainstream evangelical radio and television of the day. James Dobson? Pat Robertson? Jerry Falwell? All the those folks and more who represented all of that business. Granted, our particular church was maybe a tick or two even beyond them, but 10 cc's of poison is still poison, even if it's not a full 15 cc's of it. It still makes the body sick. Just maybe not as fast-acting.

I can't but wonder if it is how someone hears. I've listened to James Dobson and never have heard fear or hatred. The other two, I haven't listened to so I can't address a view.

It was everywhere in the evangelical world, outside our particular group. Heck, our group, following suit with them took it another step forward and considered all of them as "lost" too, but they were being used by God for his good purposes. I remember being told that these other Christians were "the scaffolding God used to restore his true church". Sort of like how evangelicals today see Trump! In fact, exactly the same as that

That reasoning was nonsense to me then, and it's a multiplicity of times more disingenuous and full of insincerity to me today than then. It was and remains so today, just an excuse for self-righteous hypocrisy, and that's all. Falwell today, is no different than the poisonous Christian right then. In many regards, more ripe in its fruits of hypocrisy.

Again, I'm not sure about "everywhere". I listened to Hillsong, Joseph Prince, Andrew Womack. and a litany of others that have worldwide impact and are not preaching fear. Maybe the diet of what you are hearing is too limited?

Exactly. The inner voice of the spirit spoke to me using scripture on a regular basis as I was trying to see this path as the way to God back then. "By their fruits you shall know them. By their fruits you shall know them." I finally became willing to honestly examine them and their claims about God head on. That led to me leaving them, of course.

It's hard to do that, when you want to believe in something, but find it increasingly difficult to do so, while maintaining any intellectual and spiritual integrity. I heard that voice all along, but was resistant to listen, out of fear to listen to it, and what it meant, what sacrifice I would have to make, and did.

OK... I know that you are making every effort to have good fruit as I do.

If it were that simple, that would have been easy. Just leave them and try to fit into the mainline evangelicals. In fact, that is exactly what I did try. But my experience was that while in a lot of cases it was not nearly as rabid, it was all just a watered-down version of it. But even there, when they tune in to garbage like Focus on the Family, the poison is still there.

Again... I don't see it.

I agree you need to be careful. Yet, there is precedence for calling out hypocrisy without pulling punches. Jesus did it. And what I see that I am referencing, is pretty much the exact same targets of hypocrisy and hypocrites that Jesus went after. They are quite literally, the portrait of the Pharisees that the gospel authors portrayed whom Jesus chastised. Rightly so.

Being a sinner is one thing. Being a hypocrite is another. That harms people's faith. It certainly harmed my own back in that day, and I am convinced it harms countless others today. How many ExChristians and atheists has they created? "Better there a millstone around your neck", I think is the force with which Jesus referred to those who do that. Those are the wolves in sheep's clothing.

Won't argue that there are hypocrites. You can find them everywhere and, most certainly, even in those who subscribe too your viewpoint.

But if the answer is put "a millstone around your neck", it think we have just preached fear instead of hope, mercy, love and turn the other cheek and "Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted."

I'm not talking just about a few bad apples. The system itself is the bad apple. And while there may be good honest folks that are in those systems, the entire structure inherently has that "us vs. them" poison built right into it. Think in modern terms of systemic racism built into police departments. You have some very fine upstanding cops out there, but the system innately creates an "us vs. them" mentality, even for them. Good people are affected by negative perceptions that are taken as the norm.

We can spend some more time exploring that idea later on.

I don't see that.

I'm sorry. I don't think you understand that when I say "fear-based", I am referring to a system, not just a simple reaction of fear to immediate threats. I am talking about a core philosophy that motivates everything that follows, including reactionary movements. I'm talking about a philosophy of fear. I'm talking about 'isms'.

Conservatism, is by definition, a drawing back, a pulling away from change. It is at its heart based upon the fear of change. It fears that which is different. It fears outsiders. It fears progress. It fears challenges to its presumptions of truth. It fears knowledge which threatens itself. It fears the light of truth itself. Granted, some putting the brakes on change is warranted in some situations, but what we have instead in today's climate of change, is the exploitation of the fear of change by unscrupulous politicians, who sold a bill of goods to today's evangelicals.

That is what got all these folks fired up to declare war on culture. It's the fear of a different set of beliefs and values that challenge them, and they gave into that fear and literally, in the case of Trump particularly, made a deal with the devil out of that fear. They made a deal with the devil back in the 80's and today you have the "father of lies" being supported and championed by evangelicals. That is literally, a deal with the devil himself.

Evangelicals have destroyed all respectability they had as Christians, once they got in bed with politicians. They are now a different animal. "Jesuscans", followers of conservative politics, wearing the name Christian as shield against others it deems unworthy, and not the Jesus of the Beatitudes, who supports the poor, feeds the hungry, welcomes the stranger, and forgives the sinner.

I disagree with that position in that "conservat'ism is as much as an ism as Liberal'ism".

In that in so many churches today they wear no suits (some still do), wear makeup, jewelry, jeans etc... I can't say we aren't open for change.

If change means "accept my world values and my idols" -- yes there would be a problem. When did God say not to be involved in politics? And who is the best at supporting the poor, feeding the hunger, forgive the sinner, help the drug and alcohol addicted, helping those who are in need if it isn't Christians?

So I can't agree with you.

No it's not. I have a hope-based philosophy of life. War is an act of violence against hope. Jesus never declared war upon those of different beliefs and values. He only attacked religious hypocrites. A "war against hypocrisy" is something I could get behind. We have examples of Jesus doing that. But examples of him declaring a war on culture, we never see.

I'm all in favor of being anti-hypocritical as along as we remember that those who are hypocritical can also be classified as sinners and we eat and reach out to all types of people -- lest we preach fear to them and shun them as irredeemable. Remember, many of those same people became Christians and found forgiveness..

Where in scripture? Where did he say build a wall to keep Samaritans and other strangers out of Israel? Where did he ever say, let's elect judges who will make sure prostitutes and tax collectors are stoned to death, or denied the same rights as others in society? Where did he ever bash people for being gay? Where did he ever lead lynch mobs to hang dark-skinned folks of his day in the name of his Father? Or anything along those lines of 'anti-otherism'?

Hmmm.... this sound pretty radical. Most Christians accept aliens and love them (but still hold on to 'obey the laws', don't stone people to death and yet hold onto the rights without partiality, don't bash gays (not that there aren't some) but still hold onto Love the sinner but don't accept the sin, intermarry with people of other nationalities and color, etc etc.

It was a war on religious hypocrisy. These posts you see me making, are following suit with that, calling out wolves in sheep's clothing, the religious who elevate themselves as the judge over others, and do everything in the power to be in positions of control and power, including lying and deception.

What we see for the past 40 years, is a pattern of that same hypocrisy in the Christian right. They are a direct correlation with the "Pharisees" in the gospel narratives. And like those in the story who were shocked in the day of judgement, "but lord, didn't we do all these wonderful things in your name," he responded "I never knew you".

Again... I don't see that (not that there isn't any) but speaking generally

85% of white evangelicals, is not "pockets". It's a systemic problem. It's a symptom of the poison of a fear-based philosophy against others infecting the whole body. Christianity is welcoming and inclusive of strangers, not isolationist and withdrawn into itself through fear of others. That's not just immature, it's spiritually diseased.

"85% of white evangelicals" sounds racist and faulty in the application of what we are speaking about. As far as "welcoming and inclusive" - since we are talking about the Christian right... is it more inclusive in the left? I don't think so.

It really doesn't sound right as you present it. It sounds very hateful.

 

[MNoBody]

The FEAR, all the preachers of that religion preach is the idea that people are damned to suffer a terrible fate ....
just by existing, if they don't do [__insert yer favorite solution__]
That people are "lost", and "damned" and need to be saved to "gain" immortality
As if!
That is pure, undiluted fear based propaganda.
Eternal life insurance, which appeals to the base instincts, the survival instinct of the body, which will seek to live at any cost.
double yer money back if you are not satisfied with the results......[catch is, you need to die to find out if you were correct or completely mistaken.......hmmm]

 

[thomas t]

the idea that people are damned to suffer a terrible fate ....
just by existing,

no that's not what Evangelicals are teaching. From my experience, they cite Bible when it says that everyone receives according to their deeds... and there happen to be bad works and people don't have anything at hand to compensate for these.

 

[Windwalker]

Again... my point was simply that the OP mentioned modern and, as you said, Edwards is not modern.

Yes, there are people who preach fear...but I don't see it as the norm.

What are they preaching now then, as opposed to what was the norm back when I was in the thick of those curls?

I can't but wonder if it is how someone hears. I've listened to James Dobson and never have heard fear or hatred. The other two, I haven't listened to so I can't address a view.

That's a little worrisome, but I also understand. Back in the day, I drank in everything I could get from that world, hoping to find Truth. What I found instead at the bottom of that well, was a disillusionment. Where there should be love, there was divisiveness, deep and growing at that time within that world. And what I see today, is the absolute fruitian of that, us vs. them language of those like Dobson, Et. Al. All those within that evangelical world I was part of.

You may not hear that. I didn't recognize it then for what it was. But it is the language of what I've come to despise about that, "warfare". That is aggression. The whole push for legislation to push Christian values on an emergingly more diverse culture, was an act of violence, not Peace. It was not the Peace of Christ at all. It was self-righteous, Pharisee-like, imposterism. Preaching of truth, as they saw it, imposing itself upon others in a powerplay. That is what Christ reviled, as portrayed in scripture.

Everyone can read what they want to into scripture. At its base, it's a reflection of themselves, for good or for bad. How they act, how they behave, reveals the fruits of the vine they are drawing from. "By their fruits, you shall know them," spoke Spirit to me, while I sat in the classrooms looking for Truth.

But if the answer is put "a millstone around your neck", it think we have just preached fear instead of hope, mercy, love and turn the other cheek and "Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted."

No. That's not a preaching of fear. It's a preaching of judgment upon the severity of the harm done upon the child of God. This was a teaching of Jesus himself. "It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones." Those who are frauds, those who exploit the spiritually vulnerable, prey upon them with self-interests behind them, do damage to the spiritual path of souls seeking for divine Truth. That is a stern warning from the Lord.

Are they overtaken in this fault? The real question is, can we know? I think if you have a developed, well-grounded spiritual sense, first in yourself and then seeing into others without judgement, then you can see if there is anything there that will respond to Truth, in how they hear that, in whatever language they speak. But if we can see a trail of destruction behind them, year after year, resulting in division and warfare, splitting a nation in half.....

"By their fruits you shall know them."

I disagree with that position in that "conservat'ism is as much as an ism as Liberal'ism".

In that in so many churches today they wear no suits (some still do), wear makeup, jewelry, jeans etc... I can't say we aren't open for change.

If change means "accept my world values and my idols" -- yes there would be a problem. When did God say not to be involved in politics? And who is the best at supporting the poor, feeding the hunger, forgive the sinner, help the drug and alcohol addicted, helping those who are in need if it isn't Christians?

So I can't agree with you.

Now this is a discussion point. I don't disagree Christians should try to be the salt of the world, which means to bring forth good to the community. A war on culture, is not that. That is violence on the world. Not salt. Not a spiritual preservative. That is not healing. It's infection.

That is my whole problem with this. It's not reflective of what I saw and heard in scripture, as I looked for the Truth of the divine, which speaks without judgement upon us.

Hmmm.... this sound pretty radical. Most Christians accept aliens and love them (but still hold on to 'obey the laws', don't stone people to death and yet hold onto the rights without partiality, don't bash gays (not that there aren't some) but still hold onto Love the sinner but don't accept the sin, intermarry with people of other nationalities and color, etc etc.

If they only just held their judgements of others to themselves, and not seek to impose legislation against others to prevent them from having equal regards and respect in this world, as one would hope a Christian would be inviting, rather than judging. But that's not all this is. It's that whole power play of value systems, wrapped under the conservative slant of Christian truth and values, imposed upon culture at large. This is political. Not spiritual. Not the salt of the earth, but poison.

"85% of white evangelicals" sounds racist and faulty in the application of what we are speaking about. As far as "welcoming and inclusive" - since we are talking about the Christian right... is it more inclusive in the left? I don't think so.

It really doesn't sound right as you present it. It sounds very hateful.

If you listen deeply, it's not hateful. It's disappointment.

 

[thomas t]

A war on culture, is not that.

I hate this war, to be clear.
This being said...

Just to show you the context of it...
Atheists and adherents to other religions are doing the same finding excuses for the persecution of Christians, for example see LINK.
Someone said... when it's annoying what Christians do or what they say they get persecuted and that's just normal (my summary of what this poster was saying). Please note this post was voted up six times, sadly.

 

[Kenny]

What are they preaching now then, as opposed to what was the norm back when I was in the thick of those curls?

Grace

That's a little worrisome, but I also understand. Back in the day, I drank in everything I could get from that world, hoping to find Truth. What I found instead at the bottom of that well, was a disillusionment. Where there should be love, there was divisiveness, deep and growing at that time within that world. And what I see today, is the absolute fruitian of that, us vs. them language of those like Dobson, Et. Al. All those within that evangelical world I was part of.

You may not hear that. I didn't recognize it then for what it was. But it is the language of what I've come to despise about that, "warfare". That is aggression. The whole push for legislation to push Christian values on an emergingly more diverse culture, was an act of violence, not Peace. It was not the Peace of Christ at all. It was self-righteous, Pharisee-like, imposterism. Preaching of truth, as they saw it, imposing itself upon others in a powerplay. That is what Christ reviled, as portrayed in scripture.

Everyone can read what they want to into scripture. At its base, it's a reflection of themselves, for good or for bad. How they act, how they behave, reveals the fruits of the vine they are drawing from. "By their fruits, you shall know them," spoke Spirit to me, while I sat in the classrooms looking for Truth.

Then follow Christ and show love.

No. That's not a preaching of fear. It's a preaching of judgment upon the severity of the harm done upon the child of God. This was a teaching of Jesus himself. "It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones." Those who are frauds, those who exploit the spiritually vulnerable, prey upon them with self-interests behind them, do damage to the spiritual path of souls seeking for divine Truth. That is a stern warning from the Lord.

Are they overtaken in this fault? The real question is, can we know? I think if you have a developed, well-grounded spiritual sense, first in yourself and then seeing into others without judgement, then you can see if there is anything there that will respond to Truth, in how they hear that, in whatever language they speak. But if we can see a trail of destruction behind them, year after year, resulting in division and warfare, splitting a nation in half.....

"By their fruits you shall know them."

I'm not sure how you connected all the dots. If there is truth, then it automatically exposes lies. Destruction isn't always about how bad the church is. Splitting a nation in half can also be simply people who reject truth for self gratification. Jesus preached the truth and it didn't always translate into unity as you have mentioned.

Now this is a discussion point. I don't disagree Christians should try to be the salt of the world, which means to bring forth good to the community. A war on culture, is not that. That is violence on the world. Not salt. Not a spiritual preservative. That is not healing. It's infection.

That is my whole problem with this. It's not reflective of what I saw and heard in scripture, as I looked for the Truth of the divine, which speaks without judgement upon us.

Aree that the truth in love doesn't translate into judging people... As Christians reach out to prostitutes, drug addicts, homelessness, hurting, crying and dying... I wonder how you can only see what is wrong and not what is right. Isn't that judging?

If they only just held their judgements of others to themselves, and not seek to impose legislation against others to prevent them from having equal regards and respect in this world, as one would hope a Christian would be inviting, rather than judging. But that's not all this is. It's that whole power play of value systems, wrapped under the conservative slant of Christian truth and values, imposed upon culture at large. This is political. Not spiritual. Not the salt of the earth, but poison.

Every legislation imposes on people. Going 75 miles an hour judges people and imposes on people. So what part is wrong? Is it wrong to legislate what is right? Isn't legislation usually an effort to impose right like "Thou shalt no commit murder?"

If you listen deeply, it's not hateful. It's disappointment.

OK... So be the salt of the earth, be the light of the world an let you light shine so that disappointment can turn into rejoicing for those you impacted. Isn't that the answer?

 

[Windwalker]

I hate this war, to be clear.

Then quit supporting it. That war on culture pretty much only goes one way, from the Christian Right against modern, secular, pluralistic culture. The animosity back from them, is a self-defense posture, not an act of aggression trying to destroy Christianity.

Christianity is not being persecuted in the country. They are still the number one major religion in this country. There are no churches needing to go underground. Just look to the Phelps family being allowed to preach their godless hatred in the name of Christ, for goodness sake. If there were persecution in this country, they'd have been wiped out long ago. The fact that they are allowed to do what they do, is proof there is no persecution going on here.

In other countries, that may be a different matter of course. Atheists are persecuted too in religious countries. Put to death, in fact. That's real persecution, not made up victimhood in some imaginary "war against Christmas", or some such rubbish nonsense.

Just to show you the context of it...
Atheists and adherents to other religions are doing the same finding excuses for the persecution of Christians, for example see LINK.

Seriously? You interpret people not liking unsolicited proselytizing, as "persecution"? Oh dear. That's a little overly sensitive and dramatic, isn't it?

People object to proselytizing because it shows disrespect to other people's beliefs. People object to offensive behaviors all the time. You object to those as well when you encounter them. Are you "persecuting" someone by saying you object to something they are doing? No one can take such a claim as valid. It's just an excuse trying to deflect from one's own wrongdoing.

Father: "Son, how many times have we told you to turn that music down at night while we're trying to sleep?"

Son: "Quit persecuting me! You're only saying that because it's Christian music, and you're against Jesus and me! It's my religious freedom you're attacking, Dad!"

 

[Windwalker]

Grace

A war on culture, is not Grace. I know what that Grace looks like. What I saw in the 80's in everything that I've shared openly with you, was not that Grace. It is that Grace, which kept saying to me, "By their fruits you shall know them." In other words, I knew in my heart, that what they were preaching in the name of God, did not express that Grace.

Then follow Christ and show love.

Are you saying my criticism, and condemnation of the hypocrisy of religious leaders, says I am not following Christ? When Jesus lit into the Pharisees, was he sinning too? Maybe you have a pacifist version of Christ in mind here, one who never says anything provocative or challenging, or condemning of abusing others in the name of God?

I would counter here, the same thing to those like Dobson and other war on culture advocates. Follow Christ and show love. Quit trying to force right-wing conservative values down people's throats. Force is not Grace. It's the opposite of Grace. Force imposes. Grace invites.

I'm not sure how you connected all the dots. If there is truth, then it automatically exposes lies.

Well, yes and no. Truth, with a capital T, is always there, shining like the noonday sun. But if someone is holding a cloud over their own heads, they won't see its Light. Those who aren't hiding from that Light will see the Truth clearly, and all the lies are exposed. But not to those in darkness. They are confused as to what that truth is, because they are in darkness.

And the most dangerous of those is those who hide fear and ignorance behind the name of Truth. That becomes self-deception at that point, the "near enemy" of faith, lies masquerading as truth. They think they have Truth, but deny it's Light. "By their fruits you shall know them".

This is why I've come to say that it does not matter how, or what someone believes, or even practices. If you bear spiritual fruit, you are following God. If you don't, you aren't, regardless of your religious devotions. Jesus taught this in scripture, didn't he? "For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother."

Destruction isn't always about how bad the church is. Splitting a nation in half can also be simply people who reject truth for self gratification.

I'm not talking about simply having differences of views. I'm talking about the intolerance of right wing conservative Christians in this country who declared war against a secular, pluralistic culture, and tried to impose their value structures upon others, through manipulations and lies and distortions of truth.

I mentioned Dobson. Let me give you an example of that in what I just mentioned. From Wiki on him: Focus on the Family - Wikipedia

Misrepresentation of research[edit]

James Dobson cited the research of Kyle Pruett and Carol Gilligan in a Time Magazine guest article in the service of a claim that two women cannot raise a child; upon finding out that her work had been used in this way, Gilligan wrote a letter to Dobson asking him to apologize and to cease and desist from citing her work, describing herself as "mortified to learn that you had distorted my work...Not only did you take my research out of context, you did so without my knowledge to support discriminatory goals that I do not agree with...there is nothing in my research that would lead you to draw the stated conclusions you did in the Time article."[59][60][61] Pruett wrote a similar letter, in which he said that Dobson "cherry-picked a phrase to shore up highly (in my view) discriminatory purposes. This practice is condemned in real science, common though it may be in pseudo-science circles. There is nothing in my longitudinal research or any of my writings to support such conclusions," and asked that FOTF not cite him again without permission.[62]

After Elizabeth Saewyc's research on teen suicide was used by Focus on the Family to promote conversion therapy she said that "the research has been hijacked for somebody's political purposes or ideological purposes and that's worrisome", and that research in fact linked the suicide rate among LGBT teens to harassment, discrimination, and closeting.[63] Other scientists who have criticized Focus on the Family for misrepresenting their findings include Robert Spitzer,[64] Gary Remafedi,[62] and Angela Phillips.[64]​

This is just a couple examples of many one can find. Again, back to my personal experience with that world, it is rife with intellectual and spiritual dishonesty. Lies and distortions in order to push an agenda that is ill founded and prejudice against others in this society, is not the fruits of Christian love or Truth. How can it be when it is steeped in dishonesty?

"By their fruits you shall know them", came up in my mind when I was looking at all of this at that time.

Jesus preached the truth and it didn't always translate into unity as you have mentioned.

Yes, of course not. But he did not advocate "otherism" like Dobson. He did not promote a war on culture to impose his ideas upon others. He was always about Grace, and invitation. Not force. War on culture, is force, not Grace.

Do you denounce that war they declared as unChristian? If so, then there is nothing further to discuss. we are in agreement. If not, why not?

Aree that the truth in love doesn't translate into judging people... As Christians reach out to prostitutes, drug addicts, homelessness, hurting, crying and dying... I wonder how you can only see what is wrong and not what is right. Isn't that judging?

As Christians try to impose their beliefs and values upon others of different beliefs and values, how does that relate to helping the downtrodden and hurting? Do you see that as "saving them" from themselves through force? "It's for their own good," sort of self-justification? Helping the suffering is one thing, judging them as evil and trying to pass laws to prevent them from holding or expressing their own set of beliefs and values, is not Christian love in action.

Can we at least agree on this?

Every legislation imposes on people. Going 75 miles an hour judges people and imposes on people. So what part is wrong? Is it wrong to legislate what is right? Isn't legislation usually an effort to impose right like "Thou shalt no commit murder?"

Laws for public safety do not in any way shape of form, have anything to do with imposing religious beliefs and values of one group, upon all other groups against what they teach and believe. Laws like speed limits, everyone, Christian, Hindu, Muslim, gay, straight, bi, believer and unbeliever alike all can get behind.

Christians getting to legislate Christian prayer at the beginning of school, disregarding and disrespecting other belief systems, is not like speed limit laws. That's manipulating the legal system for a Christian-only agenda. That's imposing their beliefs and values upon others. It's manipulation. It's dishonest. It's unloving. It's unChristian, IMHO.

OK... So be the salt of the earth, be the light of the world an let you light shine so that disappointment can turn into rejoicing for those you impacted. Isn't that the answer?

The answer is recognizing one's own sins first. As I said before, when I was in the thick of it back then, I went with the flow and assumed we were in the right, being followers of God and the Christian bible, and all that. Do you not see any role of wrongdoing on the part of the Christian Right in all of this? This is somehow on me for being "unloving"?

 

[thomas t]

Then quit supporting it.

I don't support it!
I even quit the church where I belonged to because of their political stances. Now I exchange services with them.
I am not a part of the political Christian Right.
I am a part of the Christian family, yes. All the while not supporting any political stance of the church.

You interpret people not liking unsolicited proselytizing, as "persecution"?

no no. Everyone has the right to like or not to like.
My conversation partner made excuses for persecution, the real one, as I see it.
That was my point.
That's just as hostile as that war on culture.
Your comparison father-son misses the point, I think.

 

[Windwalker]

I don't support it!
I even quit the church where I belonged to because of their political stances. Now I exchange services with them.
I am not a part of the political Christian Right.
I am a part of the Christian family, yes. All the while not supporting any political stance of the church.

Excellent. I can respect this. @KenS, can you agree with him like this?

no no. Everyone has the right to like or not to like.
My conversation partner made excuses for persecution, the real one, as I see it.
That was my point.
That's just as hostile as that war on culture.
Your comparison father-son misses the point, I think.

I think what I was questioning is that what someone calls persecution, is really not persecution at all. Like that whole manufactured nonsense about a "war on Christmas", and the whole, 'put Christ back into Christmas", and disrespect Jews and Muslims and Hindus, and all others and say "Merry Christmas" instead of happy holidays sort of nonsense.

Do you think saying proselytizing should not be allowed on this forum is Christian persecution? Am I misunderstanding you?

 

[thomas t]

Do you think saying proselytizing should not be allowed on this forum is Christian persecution? Am I misunderstanding you?

we discussed real persecution in the other thread, rest assured.
This site does not allow it, that makes sense, but they don't send me to jail if I don't comply to their rules, that was the point.
There are many countries in which you have to go to jail just for sharing the Bible.

 

[Nakosis]

I hate this war, to be clear.
This being said...

Just to show you the context of it...
Atheists and adherents to other religions are doing the same finding excuses for the persecution of Christians, for example see LINK.
Someone said... when it's annoying what Christians do or what they say they get persecuted and that's just normal (my summary of what this poster was saying). Please note this post was voted up six times, sadly.

I don't care if you share with the willing. What proselytizing is, is trying to convert someone to your belief. This means you are trying to tell a Muslim, a Jew a Pagan or a Buddhist that their beliefs are less valid than yours. Their beliefs, their religion is wrong and yours is right.

I don't think any person has the certainty of belief to go about invalidating someone else's beliefs.

I'm an atheist because that is a personal conclusion I've come to. While it is right for me, I don't expect it to be right for anyone else.

Whatever you choose to believe is fine with me, just don't expect a necessity of anyone else sharing that belief.

 

[Kenny]

The answer is recognizing one's own sins first. As I said before, when I was in the thick of it back then, I went with the flow and assumed we were in the right, being followers of God and the Christian bible, and all that. Do you not see any role of wrongdoing on the part of the Christian Right in all of this? This is somehow on me for being "unloving"?

Yes... you are correct. Look at one's own log first.

Are there unloving Christians... certainly. Is saying "sex with children is wrong" as the Christian right - wrong -- as we push laws for it? I don't think so... yet NAMBLA would disagree. Is it unloving to push that law? I don't think so yet others would disagree.

"This bill would exempt from mandatory registration under the act a person convicted of certain offenses involving minors if the person is not more than 10 years older than the minor and if that offense is the only one requiring the person to register."

Bill Text - SB-145 Sex offenders: registration.

Now... the Christian right is against this position..; but is that unloving? I don't think so. Not being judgmental has nothing to do with judging what is wrong. IMV

A war on culture, is not Grace. I know what that Grace looks like. What I saw in the 80's in everything that I've shared openly with you, was not that Grace. It is that Grace, which kept saying to me, "By their fruits you shall know them." In other words, I knew in my heart, that what they were preaching in the name of God, did not express that Grace.

OK... I'm sure there was... but that was 30 years ago. I hear grace today.

Are you saying my criticism, and condemnation of the hypocrisy of religious leaders, says I am not following Christ? When Jesus lit into the Pharisees, was he sinning too? Maybe you have a pacifist version of Christ in mind here, one who never says anything provocative or challenging, or condemning of abusing others in the name of God?
I would counter here, the same thing to those like Dobson and other war on culture advocates. Follow Christ and show love. Quit trying to force right-wing conservative values down people's throats. Force is not Grace. It's the opposite of Grace. Force imposes. Grace invites.

No, I am not saying that. I am saying that if you are judging religious leaders instead of doing what you said "check you own log first" it could be wrong (depending). I can judge an act of religious leader as being hypocritical without condemning those same leaders and being judgmental about it.

But again, every law is forcing a value down someone else's throat. Being a Christian doesn't mean don't get involved in the government nor does it mean no laws.

Well, yes and no. Truth, with a capital T, is always there, shining like the noonday sun. But if someone is holding a cloud over their own heads, they won't see its Light. Those who aren't hiding from that Light will see the Truth clearly, and all the lies are exposed. But not to those in darkness. They are confused as to what that truth is, because they are in darkness.

And the most dangerous of those is those who hide fear and ignorance behind the name of Truth. That becomes self-deception at that point, the "near enemy" of faith, lies masquerading as truth. They think they have Truth, but deny it's Light. "By their fruits you shall know them".

This is why I've come to say that it does not matter how, or what someone believes, or even practices. If you bear spiritual fruit, you are following God. If you don't, you aren't, regardless of your religious devotions. Jesus taught this in scripture, didn't he? "For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother."

I'm not sure exactly what you said here.

I'm not talking about simply having differences of views. I'm talking about the intolerance of right wing conservative Christians in this country who declared war against a secular, pluralistic culture, and tried to impose their value structures upon others, through manipulations and lies and distortions of truth.

I mentioned Dobson. Let me give you an example of that in what I just mentioned. From Wiki on him: Focus on the Family - Wikipedia

Misrepresentation of research[edit]

James Dobson cited the research of Kyle Pruett and Carol Gilligan in a Time Magazine guest article in the service of a claim that two women cannot raise a child; upon finding out that her work had been used in this way, Gilligan wrote a letter to Dobson asking him to apologize and to cease and desist from citing her work, describing herself as "mortified to learn that you had distorted my work...Not only did you take my research out of context, you did so without my knowledge to support discriminatory goals that I do not agree with...there is nothing in my research that would lead you to draw the stated conclusions you did in the Time article."[59][60][61] Pruett wrote a similar letter, in which he said that Dobson "cherry-picked a phrase to shore up highly (in my view) discriminatory purposes. This practice is condemned in real science, common though it may be in pseudo-science circles. There is nothing in my longitudinal research or any of my writings to support such conclusions," and asked that FOTF not cite him again without permission.[62]

After Elizabeth Saewyc's research on teen suicide was used by Focus on the Family to promote conversion therapy she said that "the research has been hijacked for somebody's political purposes or ideological purposes and that's worrisome", and that research in fact linked the suicide rate among LGBT teens to harassment, discrimination, and closeting.[63] Other scientists who have criticized Focus on the Family for misrepresenting their findings include Robert Spitzer,[64] Gary Remafedi,[62] and Angela Phillips.[64]
This is just a couple examples of many one can find. Again, back to my personal experience with that world, it is rife with intellectual and spiritual dishonesty. Lies and distortions in order to push an agenda that is ill founded and prejudice against others in this society, is not the fruits of Christian love or Truth. How can it be when it is steeped in dishonesty?

"By their fruits you shall know them", came up in my mind when I was looking at all of this at that time.

So, you think that because he has a Biblical position it is forcing down someone's throat? Why would the opposite not be true? If the law says they can, isn't it forcing down someone else's throat that point of view?

what I am saying is that regardless of the position, any law forces one view on someone else. It is hardly a hypocritical position to hold a position while loving a person you disagree with. I didn't see where Dobson said "Hate those two women!". Simply holding a viewpoint that is in his right to have.

Side point, there are just as many studies saying a husband/wife makes it better for children as does two of the same sex. So I think it is still up in the air.

As Christians try to impose their beliefs and values upon others of different beliefs and values, how does that relate to helping the downtrodden and hurting? Do you see that as "saving them" from themselves through force? "It's for their own good," sort of self-justification? Helping the suffering is one thing, judging them as evil and trying to pass laws to prevent them from holding or expressing their own set of beliefs and values, is not Christian love in action.

Can we at least agree on this?

And here is what I am trying to say. I believe that alcoholism is wrong. We have laws on how much alcohol you can have while you drive forcing one persons view on another down their throats all in the name of "It is for their own good and the good of others".

But the law doesn't mean that I am judging an alcoholic. We help alcoholics. The principle is consistent in any area.

Laws for public safety do not in any way shape of form, have anything to do with imposing religious beliefs and values of one group, upon all other groups against what they teach and believe. Laws like speed limits, everyone, Christian, Hindu, Muslim, gay, straight, bi, believer and unbeliever alike all can get behind.

Christians getting to legislate Christian prayer at the beginning of school, disregarding and disrespecting other belief systems, is not like speed limit laws. That's manipulating the legal system for a Christian-only agenda. That's imposing their beliefs and values upon others. It's manipulation. It's dishonest. It's unloving. It's unChristian, IMHO.

OK... but we don't do that any more. the opposite would be just as true. Preventing people to pray at school is imposing a person's belief on another.

 

[metis]

A child can pray in school almost anytime (s)he wants, plus they legally can have prayer groups meet in school before or after school is over if there are also other activities allowed. However, school staff cannot religious programs in a public school because of separation of church & state regulations..