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Hands up who believes in the Trinity!

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by ThisShouldMakeSense, Jun 24, 2005.

  1. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    Oh, man! What a low blow! Comparing someone to a Mormon is just about as vicious a thing as you could possibly do! :biglaugh:

    I'm not going to attempt to speak on behalf of the Jehovah's Witnesses. I'd prefer to let one of them do that for themselves. However, Mormons do believe that Jesus is "God." They just don't believe that He is His own Father or His own Son. Our quarrel with the doctrine of the Trinity is that it attempts to clarify the way in which the Father and the Son are "one," and do so by incorporating non-scriptural terminology such as the use of the word "substance." I believe that the Father and the Son are "one"; I just don't believe they are of one substance. None of the scriptures you've mentioned imply that they are. (Or if they do, you certainly haven't explained how.)

    Kathryn
     
  2. blueman

    blueman God's Warrior

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    Hi Katzpur. God's essence is He is all-knowing, all-powerful, omnipresent and omnipotent, full of love, grace, mercy,longsuffering, gentleness, patience, faithful, just, goodness. The Father, Son and The Holy Spirit all share these attributes. :)
     
  3. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    I'll go along with that. So, do you see the words "essence" and "substance" as being synonymous?

    The reason I'm asking is that I'm trying to get a handle on what Trinitarians really believe about God, and most of my arguments against this doctrine go back to the use of the words "essence" and "substance." If we are speaking of nothing more than God's non-physical attributes (his love, grace, knowledge, power, etc.), then I'm okay with the use of the word "essence" being used to describe the Father, Son and Holy Ghost.

    However, I wonder if that's how the writers of the Creeds were actually using these words. At the time the Nicene Creed was being formulated, one of the big issues was whether the Father and the Son were "homoousios" (of the same substance) or "homoousia" (of like substance). To me, it sounds as if they were arguing the physical makeup of the Father and the Son. What do you think?
     
  4. Hirohito18200

    Hirohito18200 Member

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    From what I know of the history behind the creeds, in the case of the Nicean they were dealing mostly with the divine nature. The physical nature would be an issue with the Gnostics and Manachians *sp* but this was not as important yet. The creeds written around the time of the Ablingensees *sp* would deal more with the physical because they were amore Gnostic herecy.

    It's quite possible I don't know something lol, this is only my understanding:D
     
  5. Ronald

    Ronald Well-Known Member

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    I understand the scripture very well! The only thing that scripture to do with my question is your inferance! So if you were not infering anything then you just wanted to change the subject and leave the question ananswered.
    I've had Christian bait and switch so often it is sickening, just returned from the hospital, I want to get better so, please either answer or keep your bait and switch.
    You are entirely welcome to the compliment.
     
  6. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    The point was that Jesus is more concerned with how his message affects our lives... not if we are "perfect" in our doctrine. The disiples did not exert near as much energy on "doctrine" as they did on serving those around them. It's the difference between talking the talk and walking the walk.

    BTW, what was your question??? I seem to have missed it.

    And please... get better!
     
    • Like Like x 1
  7. chuck010342

    chuck010342 Active Member

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    I"ll be waiting. Let me know when your back
     
  8. chuck010342

    chuck010342 Active Member

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    thanks for your support.
     
  9. chuck010342

    chuck010342 Active Member

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    Hello Glasgowchick, The NWT is what the JW's use for their bible translation. The Greek says the same thing. the definition of " I am" is to be, to exist, to happen, to be present, according to my Greek lexicon.


    the passage in question could read

    Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I was.

    Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I exist

    Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I happen

    Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am present


    Now you have to remeber that Jesus was speaking to a Jewish audience, some greeks would of been at the temple when Jesus said this. Now accordign to the Jewish mindset the words "I AM" means only one thing. The name of God

    Exodus 3:14
    God said to Moses, "I am who I am . This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.' "

    Moses asked God what is your name? God said I AM WHO I AM "I am has sent me to you" According to the jews the name for God is I AM.

    Abraham is seen as the father of the jewish nation. so who exsisted before Abraham? God did and Jesus is reffering to God by said "I am"
     
  10. chuck010342

    chuck010342 Active Member

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    LOL

    You hold to the bible + the book of mormon. the bible says " I and the father are one"

    and then the Jews wanted to stone him because he made a claim to be God.

    The doctrine of the Trinity is a way to clairfy what The father, the Son and the Holy spirit and all God. One in three persons.

    God the father is worshipped and God the son is worshipped. It would seem that they are both one in the same.
     
  11. ThisShouldMakeSense

    ThisShouldMakeSense Active Member

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    [QUOTE=chuck010342]
    "Before Abraham was I am"
    "I and the father are one"
    "Nobody gets thru the father execpt thru me"

    please explain how those verses don't show that Jesus is God.[/QUOTE]


    Hi, i'm back in now, so here goes...

    On your scripture "Before Abraham was I am".

    As glascowchick already pointed out, some other translations put the text more in harmony with the context. ie, like this:
    Jesus answered, "The truth is, I existed before Abraham was even born!"

    also: ‘Jesus answered, `I tell you the truth. I already was before Abraham was born.'
    So, you see, as i've said before, it's very important to consider the context surrounding certain verses. if you think about what the Jews were asking him, you'll see that it was a question about age, not identity. Jesus’ reply dealt with his age, and the length of his existence. He was simply stating that he was in existence before Abraham, which is true, (being the firstborn of creation, created by God) and is not a reference to what God said to Moses.

    Also on your point of God's name. I AM is not his name, but more description of what he becomes. if you read the very next verse, it tells you 'God also said to Moses, "Say this to the Israelites: Yahweh, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you. This is My name forever; this is how I am to be remembered in every generation.'
    Cross reference this with Hosea 12:5
    Yahweh is the God of Hosts; Yahweh is His name. and cross reference that with Psalm 83:18 'May they know that You alone— whose name is Yahweh—
    are the Most High over all the earth.'

    Tie that in with Jesus words at John 17:6 'I have made Your name known to the people You have given Me from the world. They were Yours but You gave them to Me. They have obeyed Your Word.'

    Now to the next scripture quoted
    "I and the father are one"

    Once again, context! Is it in harmony with other scriptures? For instance at John 17:21, 22, Jesus prayed regarding his followers: ‘My prayer for all of them is that they will be one, just as you and I are one, Father--that just as you are in me and I am in you, so they will be in us, and the world will believe you sent me.
    What does that say to you? And the next verse says "I have given them the glory you gave me, so that they may be one, as we are'

    He used the same Greek word (hen) for "one" in all these instances. Obviously, Jesus’ disciples do not all become part of the Trinity. But they do share a oneness of purpose with the Father and the Son, the same sort of oneness that unites God and Christ.
    As a side point Genesis 2:24 says 'Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife; and they shall be one flesh.'
    We know that by saying that, he didn't mean that they would literally become one and that same person, but that they would be united in purpose and thought, as a team.

    and now finally 'Nobody gets thru the father execpt thru me' John 14:6


    This reminds me of what Jesus said on the sermon on the mount. Jesus compares the way to life to a road that a person enters through a gate. He said it wouldn't be easy: ‘Enter in through the narrow gate, for wide the gate and broad the way that leads to destruction, and many are they who enter in through it.
    For narrow the gate and straitened the way that leads to life, and they are few who find it.' Mathew 7:13,14
    Do you see what he's saying? there is only one road, or way, leading to life and that it will require careful attention on our part to avoid straying from that way to life? So then what is this only way to everlasting life?

    Well, Jesus has an important role in connection to that way.
    Paul said: "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." (Romans 6:23) Jesus showed that the only way to everlasting life is through him, so in that sense he could say: "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.’

    So it's very important that we accept Jesus’ role in making everlasting life possible.





     
  12. glasgowchick

    glasgowchick Gives Glory to God !!!

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    Hi, i'm back in now, so here goes...

    On your scripture "Before Abraham was I am".

    As glascowchick already pointed out, some other translations put the text more in harmony with the context. ie, like this:
    Jesus answered, "The truth is, I existed before Abraham was even born!"

    also: ‘Jesus answered, `I tell you the truth. I already was before Abraham was born.'
    So, you see, as i've said before, it's very important to consider the context surrounding certain verses. if you think about what the Jews were asking him, you'll see that it was a question about age, not identity. Jesus’ reply dealt with his age, and the length of his existence. He was simply stating that he was in existence before Abraham, which is true, (being the firstborn of creation, created by God) and is not a reference to what God said to Moses.

    Also on your point of God's name. I AM is not his name, but more description of what he becomes. if you read the very next verse, it tells you 'God also said to Moses, "Say this to the Israelites: Yahweh, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you. This is My name forever; this is how I am to be remembered in every generation.'
    Cross reference this with Hosea 12:5
    Yahweh is the God of Hosts; Yahweh is His name. and cross reference that with Psalm 83:18 'May they know that You alone— whose name is Yahweh—
    are the Most High over all the earth.'

    Tie that in with Jesus words at John 17:6 'I have made Your name known to the people You have given Me from the world. They were Yours but You gave them to Me. They have obeyed Your Word.'

    Now to the next scripture quoted
    "I and the father are one"

    Once again, context! Is it in harmony with other scriptures? For instance at John 17:21, 22, Jesus prayed regarding his followers: ‘My prayer for all of them is that they will be one, just as you and I are one, Father--that just as you are in me and I am in you, so they will be in us, and the world will believe you sent me.
    What does that say to you? And the next verse says "I have given them the glory you gave me, so that they may be one, as we are'

    He used the same Greek word (hen) for "one" in all these instances. Obviously, Jesus’ disciples do not all become part of the Trinity. But they do share a oneness of purpose with the Father and the Son, the same sort of oneness that unites God and Christ.
    As a side point Genesis 2:24 says 'Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife; and they shall be one flesh.'
    We know that by saying that, he didn't mean that they would literally become one and that same person, but that they would be united in purpose and thought, as a team.

    and now finally 'Nobody gets thru the father execpt thru me' John 14:6


    This reminds me of what Jesus said on the sermon on the mount. Jesus compares the way to life to a road that a person enters through a gate. He said it wouldn't be easy: ‘Enter in through the narrow gate, for wide the gate and broad the way that leads to destruction, and many are they who enter in through it.
    For narrow the gate and straitened the way that leads to life, and they are few who find it.' Mathew 7:13,14
    Do you see what he's saying? there is only one road, or way, leading to life and that it will require careful attention on our part to avoid straying from that way to life? So then what is this only way to everlasting life?

    Well, Jesus has an important role in connection to that way.
    Paul said: "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." (Romans 6:23) Jesus showed that the only way to everlasting life is through him, so in that sense he could say: "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.’

    So it's very important that we accept Jesus’ role in making everlasting life possible.





    [/QUOTE]

    Hi TSMS...I see you have attempted to give how you see those Scriptures reading but I don't feel they have answered the question on how those Scriptures proving Jesus is not God...

    Well thats a true statement but how does that prove Jesus is Not God ?
    Well even if that is so, Still doesnt prove he is not God.. [Jesus is Eternal ] As I have said none of what you have written proves he is not God, It only proves you have explained your concept of what Scriptures mean..Yes Jesus prayed for unity, Yes a man and wife become one flesh but how do those Scriptures prove he is not God. Im sorry but I am kind of puzzled with your answers.. :confused: I shall go and re-read your replies and if anything comes clearer I will be sure to let you know...thanks
     
  13. ThisShouldMakeSense

    ThisShouldMakeSense Active Member

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    Just as much as it doesn't prove he's God either.
    and if you want to think that that's my view on it, fine, it is. However, i could say the same to you. prove to me, show me a scripture where Jesus, categorically, says I am God. I thought so, you can't. In fact, that's why he's called God's son. That is why the Jews wanted to get him for blasphemy. Calling himself God's son. And nowhere will you see him called God the Son either. :jiggy:
    In that it explains what he means. Saying he is one with God, doesn't mean he is God. What part of that doen't you understand? :help:
     
  14. glasgowchick

    glasgowchick Gives Glory to God !!!

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    Why do you think Jesus is created..First born does not always mean first born Child, The Greek word used is Proto-tokos There is a different Greek word that Specifically means means First created "Proto-Tiktos Psalms 89:20,27 David was not first born Also who was Joseph's first born? See Gen 41:50-52 Gen 48:1-20 Psalms 89:20 and Jeramiah 31:7-9..



    Hi, i'm back in now, so here goes...

    On your scripture "Before Abraham was I am".

    As glascowchick already pointed out, some other translations put the text more in harmony with the context. ie, like this:
    Jesus answered, "The truth is, I existed before Abraham was even born!"

    also: ‘Jesus answered, `I tell you the truth. I already was before Abraham was born.'
    So, you see, as i've said before, it's very important to consider the context surrounding certain verses. if you think about what the Jews were asking him, you'll see that it was a question about age, not identity. Jesus’ reply dealt with his age, and the length of his existence. He was simply stating that he was in existence before Abraham, which is true, (being the firstborn of creation, created by God) and is not a reference to what God said to Moses.

    Also on your point of God's name. I AM is not his name, but more description of what he becomes. if you read the very next verse, it tells you 'God also said to Moses, "Say this to the Israelites: Yahweh, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you. This is My name forever; this is how I am to be remembered in every generation.'
    Cross reference this with Hosea 12:5
    Yahweh is the God of Hosts; Yahweh is His name. and cross reference that with Psalm 83:18 'May they know that You alone— whose name is Yahweh—
    are the Most High over all the earth.'

    Tie that in with Jesus words at John 17:6 'I have made Your name known to the people You have given Me from the world. They were Yours but You gave them to Me. They have obeyed Your Word.'

    Now to the next scripture quoted
    "I and the father are one"

    Once again, context! Is it in harmony with other scriptures? For instance at John 17:21, 22, Jesus prayed regarding his followers: ‘My prayer for all of them is that they will be one, just as you and I are one, Father--that just as you are in me and I am in you, so they will be in us, and the world will believe you sent me.
    What does that say to you? And the next verse says "I have given them the glory you gave me, so that they may be one, as we are'

    He used the same Greek word (hen) for "one" in all these instances. Obviously, Jesus’ disciples do not all become part of the Trinity. But they do share a oneness of purpose with the Father and the Son, the same sort of oneness that unites God and Christ.
    As a side point Genesis 2:24 says 'Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife; and they shall be one flesh.'
    We know that by saying that, he didn't mean that they would literally become one and that same person, but that they would be united in purpose and thought, as a team.

    and now finally 'Nobody gets thru the father execpt thru me' John 14:6


    This reminds me of what Jesus said on the sermon on the mount. Jesus compares the way to life to a road that a person enters through a gate. He said it wouldn't be easy: ‘Enter in through the narrow gate, for wide the gate and broad the way that leads to destruction, and many are they who enter in through it.
    For narrow the gate and straitened the way that leads to life, and they are few who find it.' Mathew 7:13,14
    Do you see what he's saying? there is only one road, or way, leading to life and that it will require careful attention on our part to avoid straying from that way to life? So then what is this only way to everlasting life?

    Well, Jesus has an important role in connection to that way.
    Paul said: "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." (Romans 6:23) Jesus showed that the only way to everlasting life is through him, so in that sense he could say: "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.’

    So it's very important that we accept Jesus’ role in making everlasting life possible.





    [/QUOTE]
     
  15. ThisShouldMakeSense

    ThisShouldMakeSense Active Member

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    Revelation 3:14 (English Standard Version)

    "And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: 'The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God's creation.

    Bob's your uncle.:) the first thing he created it says...ie firstborn...as in the first born in a family...ie Son of God....
    Also, remeber the plagues on the egytians? the firstborn's died. that is the eldest child in the family...
     
  16. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    When I read the "beginning of all creation" I think of him being the genesis of it all: the one who inspired or started it.
     
  17. glasgowchick

    glasgowchick Gives Glory to God !!!

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    So then would it be reasonable to say it could work either way going by your statement?
    maybe not but the Jews understood that Jesus was making himself equal with God in John 5:8 Also in John 10 :28-33 the Jews said " you make yourself God". John 10:36 " I am Gods Son" is a claim to a unique relationship with God".
    Never said you could.
    Never said I didn't understand it Just meant I didn't understand why you would use that verse to show Jesus is not God when the verse is the clearest statement of Jesus divinity He ever made, Jesus and the Father are not the same person but they are one in essence and nature, Thus Jesus is not merely a good teacher-He is God His Claim to be God was unmistakable. The religious leaders wanted to Kill him because their laws said that ANYONE claiming to be God should die, nothing could persuade them that Jesus Claim was true..So again I will ask if Jesus is not God Who do we serve Jehovah Alone.. Mathew 4:10 " Then Jesus said to him Go away satan for it is Jehovah your God you must worship and it is to him you must render sacred service OROR God and Jesus James 1:1 James a slave of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ. OROR Jesus Romans 1:1 Paul a slave of Jesus. 2 Cor 5:15 Live for him who died for us Galations 1:10 Christs Slave Phil 1:1 Paul and Timothy slaves of Jesus Col3:24 Slave for the master Jesus Christ Jude 1 Jude a slave of Jesus Christ.Also who has witnesses,, Jehovah Isa 43:10 " you are my witnesses" say's Jehovah, Isa 44:6-8 " You are my witnesses OR Jesus ACTS 1:8 " You will be witnesses of me" Acts 13:31 Who are now His witnesses, Acts 8 35: Philliped witnessed about Jesus. :jiggy:
     
  18. ThisShouldMakeSense

    ThisShouldMakeSense Active Member

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    Yes, but is that what the scriptures say? God created him, and used him to create everything else after that. He was God's masterworker.
    Colossians 1:16 (New Living Translation)
    16Christ is the one through whom God created everything in heaven and earth. He made the things we can see and the things we can't see--kings, kingdoms, rulers, and authorities. Everything has been created through him and for him.
     
  19. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    That's precisely what I said.
     
  20. ThisShouldMakeSense

    ThisShouldMakeSense Active Member

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    Nope, as i was simply using your logic.

    which says: 8Jesus said to him, "Rise, take up your bed and walk." mmm...yes, i can see how he's saying he's God :bonk:

    That's right, the Jew's did....

    I used it cos he says he is God's Son. if you said, 'i am my mother's daughter', will any one ever, ever, ever, who is not crazy, think that you are your mum!?!?!?

    mmmm....that's why he said 'I am Gos'd Son' then....

    Being a slave of someone isn't the same of worshipping them, i think you'll find. Don't forget too, that it was Jesus, who was called the faithful witness. He wittnesed about Jehovah. He said he has made Jehovah's name manifest to them. He asked in the Lord's prayer that his father's name, Jehovah, be hallowed, or sanctified or set above all others. So as Jehovah's witness, he instructed his diciples to continue to walk in his footsteps and continue to preach to the nations about his father's kingdom in which he will rule at the right side of God.
     
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