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ME!Uncertaindrummer said:
jgallandt said:
I'm not sure how these verses support the doctrine of the Trinity, provided you are speaking of the Trinity as described in the Nicene and Athanasian Creeds. If anything, it refutes this doctrine. How can the Father, Son and Holy Ghost possibly all be a part of the same substance or essence if the Father (whom you believe, I would suppose, to be a personage of spirit only) spoke from Heaven spoke in reference to His Son, who was obviously a man with flesh and bones who was walking the earth? God is either corporeal or non-corporeal. He is not both at the same time. He is either everywhere at once or physically in one specific location. He isn't both simultaneously. No one -- not even God -- is His own Son and His own Father. The Father, Son and Holy Ghost are distinct personages whose "oneness" is described in the Bible as being in will, purpose, glory and power. Nowhere in the Bible is their "oneness" even vaguely alluded to as being physical in nature, which is what the creeds imply.jgallandt said:
Hi, blueman.blueman said:I don't have any problem believing that there are three Spritual beings of God, God The Father, God The Son and God The Holy Spirit, all with the same power, no one greater than the other and all with the same essence and spiritual characteristics.
SOGFPP said:
Yeh you can count me in on this one Amen
Read just the 1st 14 verses in the Gospel of John. The 1st verse states "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." This here describes the 1st 2 parts of the trinity. It clearly states that Jesus was with God and he WAS God. And why can God not be both? (Corporeal)Katzpur said:
I like that quote, even though I don't believe in God, because I heard once that the translation of 'Word' came from 'logos' which can mean word or logic or- to an extent- truth. The trinity is not three separate things (but you all probably know that), it's just three parts of God. The Father is the creator and protector, the Son is Jesus who saved us and did all the miracles and things, and the Holy Spirit is God in us, our consciousness and conscience.
I agree. Jesus (the Word) was "with God" in the beginning. He also "was God." But being "with" someone certainly implies a relationship. The word means "being together, in the company of, alongside of, close to or near to" It would be impossible to be together, in the company of, or alongside oneself. If the Son and the Father were one single substance, the word "with" would make no sense whatsoever.jgallandt said:
Because "corporeal" means "consisting of material substance, being physical or tangible." He either is or He isn't.
Logos is the Greek word used for "Word" and the overwhelming sense of that in the New Testament is just plain "word". It seems that the "Word" as Christ is a late poetic addition not justied. In one case, Christ uses "logos" and the context does not support him speaking of himself.
Your meaning is confirmed by the exegesis from Bible Gatewayjgallandt said:
So if this is true and not a man made interpreation, it sure does throw out all of the Old Testament. Was God lying to the Jews? Where is the Holy Ghost in all of that? If the "Word" was to mean a personification, that verse would cast doubt on the Holy Spirit as not being part of God.
That's the best cop-out answer I've heard yet.jgallandt said:I respectfully disagree. With God, anything is possible.
In other words, it's all a mystery and since He doesn't really want us to understand anyway, we can throw out all logic and say He has two opposing qualities. (At least you "respectfully" disagreed. What more can we ask of one another?)
I was attempting to be nice. Why should God be limited to our physics and our understanding? God made the rules, but that does not mean he himself is limited to that. You must expand your mind to what is possible for God, not us. And do you not agree that God can do what ever he wishes, without limitations?Katzpur said:That's the best cop-out answer I've heard yet.
