Guns in church

[dianaiad]

I have never seen a gun save anyone.

I have also never seen a gun kill anyone.

Anyway, I understand what you’re saying here.

Please. Don’t shoot the guy aiming a gun at me.

And , NO, I would not shoot the guy aiming a gun at a six year old, since I don’t own a gun.

You seem to be clinging to that flesh you’re carrying around as if it’s of ultimate importance.

OK. If you are a true pacifist; that is, you would do nothing to protect your life against aggression, nor would you do anything to protect the life of another from aggression because of your personal, religious or philosophical beliefs, I honor you. That takes incredible faith and courage.

There is actually a story within our religious tradition about a group of VERY warlike and aggressive people who, once they converted to the gospel, gave up all their weapons, and made a covenant with God that they would no longer take up arms, even to protect themselves or their families. Unfortunately, those who did NOT convert had a right good old time attacking and killing them. The people who had sent missionaries to them saw the problem, and moved these people to their own land, and their military protected them. At a later time, the now pacifists saw that enemies were assailing them and their protectors, and offered to break their covenant...and were told no. The young men among them who had NOT made the covenant could go fight, but those who had made the promise must not break it. They sent 2,000 young men to fight...and not one of them was killed.

We honor those who do not fight because of their conviction.

I, however, made no such promise, so yeah; if someone were aiming at you, I'd shoot him. If someone were aiming at my child, I'd shoot him. You can yell at me later, if you wish, but at least you'd be alive to yell at me.

I wouldn't go hunting, but I am NOT a pacifist.

 

[dianaiad]

By the way, where did you obtain that falsity in your head that Jesus advocates murder to protect others?
I hope you didn’t prooftext to support a false belief of YOURS.

Gerry, There is nothing in the NT that forbids protecting yourself or others. And you have an odd idea of the definition of 'murder.'

 

[Audie]

The circus du jour right now is the fact that some evil people murdered some other evil people with guns. In some locations in the media, this is being touted as a good thing. Obviously, anyone who’s only concern in this world is SELF, will join the ‘more weapons of death is better’ bandwagon.

We live in a dysfunctional world. Allowing more evil people more access to weapons of killing is not the answer to make the world better.


By the way, those of you who find pleasure in seeing gun toting church members murdering someone, think about this.

There are millions of people, mostly children DYING of malnutrition annually, and yet your great joy today is knowing that you can carry a murder weapon into a church, to MAYBE allegedly save yourself from the extremely rare chance that you will be involved in an attempted church attack.


This mindset is precisely a result of the abomination of desolation I wrote about yesterday.

You actually think stopping a murderer is
murder. See "abomination" under "deranged mindsets".

"Pleasure...great joy"? If there's something wrong
with someone it's not with all those bad people
you invented.

 

[Audie]

You're close, but not quite. The Jesus that gun-loving Christians see in the Bible looks more like this, than the "hunting" Jesus above. Please note that look of love for his gun he has in those eyes of his? Or is he sussing out his target immigrant to send packing back to Mexico?
View attachment 35941

Hey, God, get your booger hook off the bang switch!!!!!!

 

[Rival]

Papa I know you're going to be upset
'Cause I was always your little girl
But you should know by now
I always carry.
You always taught me how to clean
Your most most favourite submachine.
I may be peace at heart,
But I know where I'm aiming.
The one you taught me all about,
The one you said I could carry out.
We're in an awful mess
And I know what to do, please!
Our guns in church!
Everyone's packing heat!
Our guns in church,
I've been shooting sheep.
But I made up my mind, I'm keeping my uzi, hm
I'm gonna keep my uzi, hm!

 

[dianaiad]

Like a gun, both are tools used to save lives (albeit from very different situations, obviously), but we don't fetishize one like we do the other.



I've never said that those who've used deadly force to defend themselves or others from the same are bad/wrong/"evil", etc. but the high fives and hardons attitude surrounding guns is disturbing; where people stroke their guns (decked out with chintzy "tacticool" gadgetry, of course) while fantasying about and actually hoping for a situation where they can justifiably blow someones brains out in a heroic Hollywood fashion. It's the mentality more so than the gun that I find problematic.

...and you think that the people who stopped those shooters fetishized their guns and were actively looking for an excuse to kill someone?

Got news for you.

I don't own a gun. My son does, however, and his whole purpose, in owning it, is not to 'go hunting' for any excuse to shoot someone. He takes classes, practices, and teaches others about the safety and appropriate use of fire arms. The next to the last thing he wants to do is to take someone else's life. The last thing he wants to do is watch someone else take the life of someone he loves because HE couldn't prevent it.

As to 'high fives...' well, I can understand that. How many shootings, recently, have ended with the people being shot at STOPPING the murderers?

HOW MANY PEOPLE DO YOU THINK WOULD HAVE BEEN KILLED IN THAT CHURCH IF SOMEONE HADN'T SHOT THE ORIGINAL MURDERERS?

Not all that long ago, in a town fairly close to me, a couple of people walked into a meeting, pulled their guns and killed 14 people and injured 22 more...because they couldn't defend themselves.

So yeah, I'll 'highfive' anything that prevents that sort of carnage.

 

[dianaiad]

Sometimes. And sometimes they cost lives.

When aimed at another person, the intent is almost ALWAYS to cost a life.

The question is; if the assailant is shot by the defender, one life is taken....how many lives are saved?

If everybody lived by the rule 'never draw first," there would be no need for this conversation....but as soon as someone 'draws first,' s/he has, IMO, thrown away his right to, er, not get shot.

Exception, of course, for law enforcement.

 

[Father Heathen]

...and you think that the people who stopped those shooters fetishized their guns and were actively looking for an excuse to kill someone?

Nope, never said that.

Got news for you.

I don't own a gun. My son does, however, and his whole purpose, in owning it, is not to 'go hunting' for any excuse to shoot someone. He takes classes, practices, and teaches others about the safety and appropriate use of fire arms. The next to the last thing he wants to do is to take someone else's life. The last thing he wants to do is watch someone else take the life of someone he loves because HE couldn't prevent it.

How is this "news"? I have family members who own guns. I've repeatedly stated that the mentality I'm talking about does not encompass all gun owners.

As to 'high fives...' well, I can understand that. How many shootings, recently, have ended with the people being shot at STOPPING the murderers?

Sure, it should be a relief, but not some celebration like you scored points playing a game.

HOW MANY PEOPLE DO YOU THINK WOULD HAVE BEEN KILLED IN THAT CHURCH IF SOMEONE HADN'T SHOT THE ORIGINAL MURDERERS?

Where did I suggest that they shouldn't have shot him? Your reading comprehension sucks.

Not all that long ago, in a town fairly close to me, a couple of people walked into a meeting, pulled their guns and killed 14 people and injured 22 more...because they couldn't defend themselves.

So yeah, I'll 'highfive' anything that prevents that sort of carnage.

Even if the outcome was the best possible one, a "high-five" attitude comes off as flippant and trivializes a rather serious and somber situation.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

This is, I have to say it, the most tiresome argument in the world. The actual data is out there, available for anybody who wants to see it, and invisible to everyone who'd prefer their personal opinion rather than data.

Just Google any variation you can think of for "gun ownership and violence" along with "United States and other countries."

Here's a particular favourite of mine: more people per capita die in the US by gun violence than die in Canada by most diseases, car accidents and a host of other causes.

 

[Stanyon]

This is, I have to say it, the most tiresome argument in the world. The actual data is out there, available for anybody who wants to see it, and invisible to everyone who'd prefer their personal opinion rather than data.

Just Google any variation you can think of for "gun ownership and violence" along with "United States and other countries."

Here's a particular favourite of mine: more people per capita die in the US by gun violence than die in Canada by most diseases, car accidents and a host of other causes.

View attachment 35945

Police chiefs around the U.S. estimate that ~%60 of all gun violence is gang or drug related, I'm sure there is a lot of overlap.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

You're close, but not quite. The Jesus that gun-loving Christians see in the Bible looks more like this, than the "hunting" Jesus above. Please note that look of love for his gun he has in those eyes of his?

yuck.. I'm surprised they hadn't retranslated the bible to conform to this, so that every instance with a sword and horse would be changed so there would be a gun and tank. Luckily, horses and swords come down to us modern people as also having a symbolic appearance, and it's probably more prudent to think of the bible in terms of the symbolic and metaphoric

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Police chiefs around the U.S. estimate that ~%60 of all gun violence is gang or drug related, I'm sure there is a lot of overlap.

Then they'd be wrong -- the vast majority of gun deaths in the U.S. result from suicide!

 

[Revoltingest]

This is, I have to say it, the most tiresome argument in the world. The actual data is out there, available for anybody who wants to see it, and invisible to everyone who'd prefer their personal opinion rather than data.

I notice that differences are more about values & perspectives.
One can support very different positions with the same data.

Just Google any variation you can think of for "gun ownership and violence" along with "United States and other countries."

Here's a particular favourite of mine: more people per capita die in the US by gun violence than die in Canada by most diseases, car accidents and a host of other causes.

View attachment 35945

Dang....it makes Canuckistan look dangerous.

 

[dianaiad]

By the way, where did you obtain that falsity in your head that Jesus advocates murder to protect others?
I hope you didn’t prooftext to support a false belief of YOURS.

I didn't say that He advocated murder. You have a very odd definition of 'murder.'

 

[Jeremiah Ames]

Gerry, There is nothing in the NT that forbids protecting yourself or others. And you have an odd idea of the definition of 'murder.'

Must be. if I think different than you, I am the odd one.
Thanks for the insight.

 

[dianaiad]

Nope, never said that.



How is this "news"? I have family members who own guns. I've repeatedly stated that the mentality I'm talking about does not encompass all gun owners.

Sure, it should be a relief, but not some celebration like you scored points playing a game.

Where did I suggest that they shouldn't have shot him? Your reading comprehension sucks.



Even if the outcome was the best possible one, a "high-five" attitude comes off as flippant and trivializes a rather serious and somber situation.

Well then, a quiet 'good for you,' from me, to those defenders.

 

[Stevicus]

Guns in church? That's so tame. Here's a church with a nuclear bomb in it.

This is our future.

 

[dianaiad]

Must be. if I think different than you, I am the odd one.
Thanks for the insight.

Of course.

Gerry, if I thought I was wrong about this, I would change my mind about it. Don't you think I'm the 'odd one?"

I mean, of course you do. If you didn't, you'd agree with me and neither one of us would be odd.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Dang....it makes Canuckistan look dangerous.

Check it against your own stats...

 

[Stanyon]

Then they'd be wrong -- the vast majority of gun deaths in the U.S. result from suicide!

I'm pretty sure that they would rule out suicide because it is not murder but that does raise the question that Canada is about the same as the U.S. in suicide so that means more guns does not equal more suicide?