Gun Control

[Mock Turtle]

I've mentioned this in the past, but in america, we really do have huge sparsely populated areas. I have lived in those places. Just imagine, in wisconsin, you are 50 miles from a police station, and you look outside at night, and it is pitch black for miles. Miles of cornfield in every direction, and so quiet you could hear a pin-drop. That is what we have here

I can well understand the distances issue being quite relevant, and mostly not solvable, so I'll grant that this could be one reason for more gun ownership than might be seen in other countries, but perhaps it also is about the sheer number of guns too, given that the fewer about then villains are less likely to be using them. After all, most countries seem to have those living in more isolated locations but they probably don't feel a need to arm themselves.

But I have a whole different argument as well. And that is, that we live in a country where a civilian is typically elected president. Now, this civilian will rather suddenly have command of a nuclear arsenal. Do you want this person in that position, without having the experience of learning how to understand other tools, that require great responsibility to understand them?

I suspect any leader has to have a team of specialists anyway, and leadership is mostly about organising these so as to carry out any governmental aims, so the leader hardly brings much to the role apart from keeping them all in order - and presenting an appropriate image to the public. Perhaps you are suspicious that America could be like Russia, where they have allowed an authoritarian leader to take over what was supposed to be a democracy, and one Trumpy almost managed this.

 

[metis]

It's easy to make the Bible say what you want if you ignore context.

I didn't and don't ignore the context, and we well know that the early Church didn't either because of their writings. For most of the first two centuries, a Believer could not join the military nor a police force as they couldn't use a weapon.

He encouraged others to take a sword...

The early Jewish sword in Jesus' time was normally about 1 to 1 & 1/2 foot long, and I saw a couple of them in a museum in Jerusalem. They were carried as a utility tool but could be used also as a weapon if push came to shove.

Even though I for decades leaned in the direction of non-violence, I eventually settled in on the Just-War Theory for reasons I can explain if you wish:
Just war theory - Wikipedia

 

[Mock Turtle]

Maybe, but that's beside the point. It's an argument that generally backfires. Foreigners telling Americans that their country sucks is not usually a good way to win friends and influence people.

Well most countries suck at one thing or another such that I certainly don't feel hurt when any criticise the UK in any way, since we have much to be criticised for. And perhaps views from outside might be more honest and less biased - as long as they do fully understand the issues, which I will admit I do not.

Not exactly, although you may be close. Americans have been taught and conditioned to believe that America is the "leader of the free world" and the "arsenal of democracy." Americans are strongly indoctrinated into believing that the rest of the world needs us and that it would be incredibly cruel and callous of Americans to believe in more peaceful, non-interventionist policies. The recent invasion of Ukraine is yet another example of this mentality in motion. Those who have advocated that America not get involved and remain neutral get treated like they're "traitors" and "scum." Even liberals have taken that tack as far as I can tell. It's all rooted in the idea that America is exceptional (which carries the implication of superiority over other nations).

I've seen the same mentality with the Iraq war, Afghanistan, Vietnam - it's the same familiar, recurring pattern over and over. We can't just be an ordinary country. There is a very strong current of opinion that we must be exceptional, that we must be warlike and violent. And the icing on the cake is that we don't do it for ourselves or our own national interests. It's all for the benefit of other nations, so they can enjoy freedom just as we have done. It's just the sacrifice that Americans are expected to make out of unconditional, selfless love for our allies and the free world overall. Some people make fun of it (as I'm doing now), but keep in mind that this is what most Americans are taught from birth. There are many who still believe this, and it's for this reason the voters elect so many warmongers to office.

That cuts to the very core of the thought process that you're challenging here. It may not be directly connected to the issues of domestic gun laws or gun control, but there is still a relationship.

Well the USA's spending on armaments has more or less put them in this role. Not sure what I can add to that.

And as for those other prosperous countries you mention? The same thought process carries the notion that Americans saved all those other countries with our guns. Some Americans might see countries with gun control as weak countries which need America to defend them.

In order to continue our foreign policy and global economic policies, it's absolutely essential that Americans believe that we have this indispensable role in the world. Sure, much of it is a good deal of jingoistic, flag-waving pablum, but it does serve a more nefarious purpose for the Powers That Be in this country. But the trouble now is that their monster is getting out of control.

I don't know why the two seem to be tied though - military might together with personal safety ensured only because of self-defence measures through owning so much personal weaponry. Both in a way seem down to insecurity.

Well, there are changing attitudes in America, so we're definitely not all of one like-mind here. We're confronting the issue, and we've also confronted our past mistakes. But confronting it doesn't necessarily bring about change. We still have racial discrimination in this country, even if it might come in different forms as it did in the past. And slavery was outlawed on paper, but it didn't really end sharecropping or sweatshops or any other such abuses of working people.

I don't know how change is effected when whatever needs changing is so entrenched, and divisive apparently.

 

[Wildswanderer]

That'd be awesome! How well has that message gotten across?

You think that the left would ever allow gun safety classes in school and college?

 

[Wildswanderer]

The early Jewish sword in Jesus' time was normally about 1 to 1 & 1/2 foot long, and I saw a couple of them in a museum in Jerusalem. They were carried as a utility tool but could be used also as a weapon if push came to shove.

Which would make them illegal to carry in most places in the US. Hmm.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

You think that the left would ever allow gun safety classes in school and college?

If you give them a workable compromise they might as at least some Democratic members of Congress.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Which would make them illegal to carry in most places in the US. Hmm.

Well, you can still carry them in Denmark if work related. How is that in the US?

 

[metis]

Which would make them illegal to carry in most places in the US. Hmm.

Not really, but there are some areas whereas that would be true, such as being on a commercial airline.

 

[Wildswanderer]

Well, you can still carry them in Denmark if work related. How is that in the US?

You could carry a big knife in the woods or at your farm job and so on. ... In my state we can technically carry even a hunting knife in a store etc as far as I've been able to determine. The knife laws tend to be kind of vague. It's a state by state thing with some states having restrictions like 3 inches or less.

 

[Wildswanderer]

Not really, but there are some areas whereas that would be true, such as being on a commercial airline.

Some states have blade size restrictions.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Some states have blade size restrictions.

So we went from most to some. Which is it then?

 

[Guitar's Cry]

You think that the left would ever allow gun safety classes in school and college?

We have them in Maine schools. I took a hunter safety class in high school. My college offered it as well, but we also had a lot of conservation law students.

 

[Wildswanderer]

So we went from most to some. Which is it then?

https://knifeup.com/knife-laws/
Here you go... have fun!

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

https://knifeup.com/knife-laws/
Here you go... have fun!

No, you made the claims. You do it.

 

[Stevicus]

Well most countries suck at one thing or another such that I certainly don't feel hurt when any criticise the UK in any way, since we have much to be criticised for. And perhaps views from outside might be more honest and less biased - as long as they do fully understand the issues, which I will admit I do not.

I don't generally mind if people criticize the US government or ruling class, but more often than not, a lot of these critics suck up to the government and reserve their criticisms for the common people. I think they've got it reversed. The common people are fine; it's the ruling class which is ****ed to the core.

Well the USA's spending on armaments has more or less put them in this role. Not sure what I can add to that.

World War II was the main turning point in that regard. For that, I tend to blame Britain and France, since they're the ones who were so obsessive during WW1. I blame them for the creation of both the Soviet Union and Nazi Germany. If they made a pledge to support peace without annexations or indemnities in WW1, it might have saved the Kerensky regime in Russia. If they had kept that pledge during the Versailles conference, then the Nazis would never have gained power in Germany.

So, for as much as European nations lambaste and criticize the U.S., they really don't have much room to talk, in my opinion.

My main beef with the US government and the electorate is how easily they got suckered into it. That's why we spend so much on armaments and why we've taken on the aggressive militaristic role that we have.

I don't know why the two seem to be tied though - military might together with personal safety ensured only because of self-defence measures through owning so much personal weaponry. Both in a way seem down to insecurity.

They're not necessarily tied, but I was just addressing the mindset which leads to the line of thinking which has to be challenged in order to truly deal with the issue of guns.

I don't know how change is effected when whatever needs changing is so entrenched, and divisive apparently.

Change won't happen easily in the United States. When there was the opportunity for America to truly change for the better, the leadership and the voting public wasted that opportunity in favor of instant gratification.

 

[Valjean]

I keep a gun in case I have to shoot a dangerous animal. I guess it is kind of macho. Also if a foreign country were to invade I think I'd defend the country. That makes me feel macho.

How often are you attacked by dangerous animals?
The time Jimmy Carter was attacked by a rabbit

 

[esmith]

How often are you attacked by dangerous animals?
The time Jimmy Carter was attacked by a rabbit

It all depends on where one lives.

 

[Mock Turtle]

I don't generally mind if people criticize the US government or ruling class, but more often than not, a lot of these critics suck up to the government and reserve their criticisms for the common people. I think they've got it reversed. The common people are fine; it's the ruling class which is ****ed to the core.

World War II was the main turning point in that regard. For that, I tend to blame Britain and France, since they're the ones who were so obsessive during WW1. I blame them for the creation of both the Soviet Union and Nazi Germany. If they made a pledge to support peace without annexations or indemnities in WW1, it might have saved the Kerensky regime in Russia. If they had kept that pledge during the Versailles conference, then the Nazis would never have gained power in Germany.

So, for as much as European nations lambaste and criticize the U.S., they really don't have much room to talk, in my opinion.

Can't quibble with that, since the victorious nations (or ones seen as such) often don't look to the future as much as they should, and hence do provoke the type of response seen leading up to WWII. The same could be said about the fall of the USSR, where the glee of so many about this perhaps disregarded what was likely to be happening in the countries affected. Not sure what one can do about this though, apart from us all having a lot more empathy and generosity.

My main beef with the US government and the electorate is how easily they got suckered into it. That's why we spend so much on armaments and why we've taken on the aggressive militaristic role that we have.

Seems many countries are placed into roles that they didn't explicitly plan.

They're not necessarily tied, but I was just addressing the mindset which leads to the line of thinking which has to be challenged in order to truly deal with the issue of guns.

Change won't happen easily in the United States. When there was the opportunity for America to truly change for the better, the leadership and the voting public wasted that opportunity in favor of instant gratification.

I can't see much change unless there is a general movement for change, and perhaps prompted by children, but even there I don't hold out much hope.

 

[Brickjectivity]

How often are you attacked by dangerous animals?
The time Jimmy Carter was attacked by a rabbit

Not often. We have deep forests with a mostly warm climate but are not near to national wildlife preserves. I killed two copperhead snakes that appeared directly on the path to my car, but I used a shovel. Larger animals such as raccoon are about but tend to stay out of sight. We can usually trap them when they become interested in our stuff. There are some wild dogs, wild pig, things like that. I've seen a wildcat that was shot. Rarely there is rumored to be a bear, but I've never seen one. We have lots of wild deer. There are many other creatures but I have never had them surround me and tell me to come out with my hands up.

 

[metis]

Some states have blade size restrictions.

In a democracy, that's their choice. IMO, it is the height of hypocrisy for a state to limit the length of a blade but allow for something like an AR-15.

BTW, public transportation has their own rules.