Guilt and Shame

[The Hammer]

We are all born with a natural capacity to feel emotions in all of their splendor, it's our Gods given ability to help us know what is right and wrong, as well as to empathize with our Earthen fellows (humans and animals). Happiness, Fear, Sadness, even Disgust.

But are we born with the capacity to feel Guilty? Or by extension Shame? Is it learned? Or is it Innate?

Why?

 

[VoidCat]

That's a real good question...I don't know...Ill have to think on it thanks for asking.

 

[VoidCat]

Morality is learned...so maybe guilt is learned?​

 

[halbhh]

We are all born with a natural capacity to feel emotions in all of their splendor, it's our Gods given ability to help us know what is right and wrong, as well as to empathize with our Earthen fellows (humans and animals). Happiness, Fear, Sadness, even Disgust.

But are we born with the capacity to feel Guilty? Or by extension Shame? Is it learned? Or is it Innate?

Why?

2 aspects:
First, both are natural: both of these emotions are innately built in to our brain, or their mechanism that is.
So on the one hand they work both automatically (by hard wired reactions), but on the other hand they can be triggered by learned social training/conditioning. So you have both a natural emotion as it were, but also a learned conditioning to add to that. Both.
Natural reactions between humans are for example actually mediated by facial expression communications that all humans automatically have and react to (though it's only one factor in how you react).

Shame and guilt can work via these.

But also there are socially learned conditioning we all have, individually, about what is right and wrong and acceptable socially that also can trigger shame and guilt also.

Of course, many of these socially learned conditionings are quite reasonable, like feeling guilty for stealing your neighbor's garden hose for example, from the conditioned learning that theft is socially unacceptable.

Infamously though, we can be conditioned to be guilty or ashamed for things that are not really harmful too, such as in a dysfunctional family dynamic.

 

[SigurdReginson]

Hmmm... Good question! It's not exclusively a human emotion.

 

[Altfish]

We are all born with a natural capacity to feel emotions in all of their splendor, it's our Gods given ability to help us know what is right and wrong, as well as to empathize with our Earthen fellows (humans and animals). Happiness, Fear, Sadness, even Disgust.

But are we born with the capacity to feel Guilty? Or by extension Shame? Is it learned? Or is it Innate?

Why?
]

Firstly, I must state that god has nothing to do with our natural capacity to do anything.

As relates to the question, I'm not sure we are. I suspect that we are taught it by our parents and siblings and teachers and friends and others

 

[Vee]

I think some comes from education but there is a sense of right and wrong that's part of us. It might be stronger in some people than others so I'm not sure how that works, but I'm convinced we are born with a sort of moral compass.

 

[The Hammer]

2 aspects:
First, both are natural: both of these emotions are innately built in to our brain, or their mechanism that is.
So on the one hand they work both automatically (by hard wired reactions), but on the other hand they can be triggered by learned social training/conditioning. So you have both a natural emotion as it were, but also a learned conditioning to add to that. Both.
Natural reactions between humans are for example actually mediated by facial expression communications that all humans automatically have and react to (though it's only one factor in how you react).

Shame and guilt can work via these.

But also there are socially learned conditioning we all have, individually, about what is right and wrong and acceptable socially that also can trigger shame and guilt also.

Of course, many of these socially learned conditionings are quite reasonable, like feeling guilty for stealing your neighbor's garden hose for example, from the conditioned learning that theft is socially unacceptable.

Infamously though, we can be conditioned to be guilty or ashamed for things that are not really harmful too, such as in a dysfunctional family dynamic.

I would disagree with the premise that they are hardwired emotions.

When does an infant/toddler display guilt or shame?

I think we are hard wired for Empathy, but not Guilt and Shame; I do agree that Guilt and Shame is a socially conditioned behaviour, that runs off off our natural tendency to be Empathetic towards others and groups we wish to stay a part of.

 

[The Hammer]

Firstly, I must state that god has nothing to do with our natural capacity to do anything.

Gods, not God.

And in your Worldview. Not mine.

Separate topic though.

 

[The Hammer]

Hmmm... Good question! It's not exclusively a human emotion.

But wasn't it learned? A stray feels no guilt that I'm aware of, it only follows it's instincts.

 

[The Hammer]

I think some comes from education but there is a sense of right and wrong that's part of us. It might be stronger in some people than others so I'm not sure how that works, but I'm convinced we are born with a sort of moral compass.

But is that right or wrong, moral compass, guilt and Shame based, or some other emotion? Disgust perhaps? Fear of ostracization? Those are natural emotions IMO.

 

[Altfish]

Gods, not God.

And in your Worldview. Not mine.

Separate topic though.

What about the rest of my post?

 

[halbhh]

I would disagree with the premise that they are hardwired emotions.

When does an infant/toddler display guilt or shame?

I think we are hard wired for Empathy, but not Guilt and Shame; I do agree that Guilt and Shame is a socially conditioned behaviour, that runs off off our natural tendency to be Empathetic towards others and groups we wish to stay a part of.

Ok, I would agree that's a good topic.

e.g.:
Pride and shame are typically not included among the small set of emotions thought to be innate, biologically based, pan-culturally experienced, shared with other primates (possibly due to similar ancestral origins), and identifiable via discrete, universal nonverbal expressions (1). Yet, recent studies suggest that both emotions may meet several of these criteria. Specifically, both are associated with distinct, cross-culturally recognized nonverbal expressions, which resemble the dominance and submission displays shown by nonhuman primates.
The spontaneous expression of pride and shame: Evidence for biologically innate nonverbal displays.

Is there research you know about that more definitely shows or suggests that shame is not also built in as innate mechanism? (shame definitely involves learned conditioning and behavior, but the question is whether it has an underlying innate mechanism also)

As I understand it (admittedly from decades ago when I read a lot about emotions during a time when psychology was very interesting to me), shame is what happens sorta automatically between 2 people when one of them judges the others in some manner (such as being unattractive even, etc.) and looks away. The key (often subsconscious) mechanism for shame (as the automatic innate seeming kind) as I learned back then if I recall is just exactly that: the breaking of contact, a subtle rejection. When a person looks away, and the connection is degraded, and the 2 no longer have that easy eye contact. That's only an indicator in a way, and someone can simply override it of course, as we can override any emotion with effort. This seems to be an automatic built in reaction in that particular way, in addition to and separate from any learned side of shame.

 

[Vee]

But is that right or wrong, moral compass, guilt and Shame based, or some other emotion? Disgust perhaps? Fear of ostracization? Those are natural emotions IMO.

I think once we grow older and our conscience develops, our fear of being put aside by others will help us gain self control and act in a way that our pears find acceptable. Emotions are very complex and some things lead to others, but regardless of outside influence, I'm convinced there is a genetic part as well. There are brothers, even twins, who were brought up the same way, in the same house, and as adults display completely different behaviors and values. If it was only a matter of environment this wouldn't happen. That's why I think it's a mix of genetics and upbringing.
That's just my opinion. I'm not an authority in the matter.

 

[The Hammer]

What about the rest of my post?

As relates to the question, I'm not sure we are. I suspect that we are taught it by our parents and siblings and teachers and friends and others

I would agree with you that it is more learned and taught by those that raise us, other than a primary emotion that we feel innately.

 

[Altfish]

I would agree with you that it is more learned and taught by those that raise us, other than a primary emotion that we feel innately.

No, you asserted in your post that god existed, I stated my opinion of that

 

[The Hammer]

No, you asserted in your post that god existed, I stated my opinion of that

Right, you also asked what of the rest of your post. I quoted and answered. I thought.

 

[Altfish]

Right, you also asked what of the rest of your post. I quoted and answered. I thought.

Indeed you did

 

[ChristineM]

We are all born with a natural capacity to feel emotions in all of their splendor, it's our Gods given ability to help us know what is right and wrong, as well as to empathize with our Earthen fellows (humans and animals). Happiness, Fear, Sadness, even Disgust.

But are we born with the capacity to feel Guilty? Or by extension Shame? Is it learned? Or is it Innate?

Why?

I think its learned through parenting and peer pressure or in some cases, mental illness

No god required

 

[Nakosis]

We are all born with a natural capacity to feel emotions in all of their splendor, it's our Gods given ability to help us know what is right and wrong, as well as to empathize with our Earthen fellows (humans and animals). Happiness, Fear, Sadness, even Disgust.

But are we born with the capacity to feel Guilty? Or by extension Shame? Is it learned? Or is it Innate?

Why?

I'm not into guilt. Decided a while back I'm not going to feel guilty for nothing.

Guilt is mostly a tool to manipulate others. So don't what to be manipulated, don't want to manipulate others.

I do things wrong because I lack the information to do things right. If I had the information on how to do something right then that is what I'd be doing. So not really my fault if I do something wrong. Don't see much point in feeling guilty about lacking information I didn't have and wasn't aware of.