• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Growing Thoughts on a Tree.

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
We only respond like this when we are still attached to drinking old wine. Similarly, we don’t get to know what we’ll find in the chaotic unknown as long as we still consider staying in the counterfeit Garden.

It’s not about a new belief system replacing an old belief system within the domain of rationality. It’s irrationality vs rationality, truthful blindness vs deceptive vision.

Since we have invited death in — which you have effectively described — we have also invited in the resistance to everlasting life. What makes sense to us, the wide road leading to the wide gate, is not the way. Our desire is the way, but not the desires that are filtered through our concealed values. In that situation, we get what we value packaged with a counterfeit fulfilled desire rather than what we truly desire.

One of the things I, for myself at least, consider important, is to shy away from pure mysticism where all the concepts are floating in a chaotic ether so that any word or concept can mean whatever the speaker or writer wants it to mean; and where they can change the meaning if need be.

Even a concept that comes from irrationality must tether itself to a rational argument; or make itself reasonable through a rational argument.

Imo we need to strive to make irrational intuitions and revelations serve the community that functions through rational communication. Private insights, though valuable to the individual, are quite possibly worthless, or worse, in a communal environment.


John
 

Treasure Hunter

Well-Known Member
Even a concept that comes from irrationality must tether itself to a rational argument; or make itself reasonable through a rational argument.
This won’t work for the reason I mentioned previously. There needs to be at least some level of overlapping experience, which while reading your posts I thought there might be. If not, then the speaker needs high status or to communicate the knowledge indirectly through story or art. It’s why Jesus used so many parables and metaphors.
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
I think it's more about control than immortality. I think what we humans want more than anything is control over our own destinies, and unfortunately we think that means we need to be able to control everything and everyone else. Religions talk and talk about self-control, but their intention is to gain control of everyone else.

There's a time coming, some call it the Techno-singularity, or the Techno-rapture, where one nation, or people, arrive at a technological plateau of biblical proportions such that they have so great an advantage over every other nation and people, militarily, economically, and every conceivable way, that they obtain a ubiquitous hegemony that will last for a thousand years if not forever.

All evolution, all war, all striving for technology and information, has been targeted toward the inevitable climax of the Techno-rapture. It's inherent to all evolutionary history. It will occur. And the first living organisms on the planet had that reality hard-wired into their very DNA.

When Jesus called his thoughts, his ideas, his theology, "flesh and blood" (John chapter 6), he was saying that the new covenant he was the progenitor of would was preordained to arrive at the Techno-singularity before all other ideologies, religions, cultures, or ethnicity.

The USA was the first nation that bought into that principle hook, line, and sinker. And it will be the home of the people who arrive at the Techno-singularity and thus achieve ubiquitous hegemony for at least a thousand years.



John
 
Last edited:

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
This won’t work for the reason I mentioned previously. There needs to be at least some level of overlapping experience, which while reading your posts I thought there might be. If not, then the speaker needs high status or to communicate the knowledge indirectly through story or art. It’s why Jesus used so many parables and metaphors.

I would say that Jesus' parables and metaphors were archetypes anchoring the collective unconscious such that by planting them forcefully in the minds of his hearers he was able to transfer them into the collective unconscious of the human race where, because his archetypes are the prototypes distorted in the fall of mankind, they will slowly but surely correct the distortions . . . in the unconscious mind, and the collective unconscious of the race, inevitably, and irrevocably, returning mankind to his original authority over nature, biology, and even cosmology.



John
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
I wasn't ignoring your op

just ranting

but to answer your op........it is written
what was freely given
must in return be ......freely given

I can't say .....what I hold to my own.....AS my own
was paid for
my handiwork is my own creation
and perhaps you can see that.......if you have been here reading my postwork

I really am a rogue theologian
and what my Lord has dealt into my hand.....
no one should claim otherwise

. . . This appears to be an example of the pure mysticism I noted is only useful for the individual, and which is actually dangerous for the community, since it has no communal (objective) criteria for authenticity.

Which doesn't mean it's not true, or valuable, to you. But presented in a subjective, mystical, way, it can only offend those outside of its subjective frame of reference.



John
 

Treasure Hunter

Well-Known Member
I would say that Jesus' parables and metaphors were archetypes anchoring the collective unconscious such that by planting them forcefully in the minds of his hearers he was able to transfer them into the collective unconscious of the human race where, because his archetypes are the prototypes distorted in the fall of mankind, they will slowly but surely correct the distortions . . . in the unconscious mind, and the collective unconscious of the race, inevitably, and irrevocably, returning mankind to his original authority over nature, biology, and even cosmology.



John
Yeah, psycho/spiritual development involves animating the archetypes from the collective unconscious, but it also requires incrementally more conscious intervention. The conscious has to integrate the unconscious within the individual.
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
Yeah, psycho/spiritual development involves animating the archetypes from the collective unconscious, but it also requires incrementally more conscious intervention. The conscious has to integrate the unconscious within the individual.

This is the key point. Imo, the unconscious is the male, and the conscious the female. The illusion is that the conscious mind is the domain of reality. That's the illusion fostering the fallacies associated with the Fall of mankind. Great artists are the earliest form of the spiritual man of the future kingdom in that they, more than most, allow the unconscious to rule over the waking conscious mind:

Men have called me mad; but the question is not yet settled, whether madness is or is not the loftiest of intelligence---whether much that is glorious---whether all that is profound---does not spring from disease of thought---from moods of mind exalted at the expense of the general intellect. They who dream by day are cognizant of many things which escape those who dream only by night. In their gray visions they obtain glimpses of eternity, and thrill, in waking, to find that they have been upon the verge of the great secret.

Edgar Allan Poe (1848/1975, p. 649).​



John
 

Treasure Hunter

Well-Known Member
This is the key point. Imo, the unconscious is the male, and the conscious the female. The illusion is that the conscious mind is the domain of reality. That's the illusion fostering the fallacies associated with the Fall of mankind. Great artists are the earliest form of the spiritual man of the future kingdom in that they, more than most, allow the unconscious to rule over the waking conscious mind:

Men have called me mad; but the question is not yet settled, whether madness is or is not the loftiest of intelligence---whether much that is glorious---whether all that is profound---does not spring from disease of thought---from moods of mind exalted at the expense of the general intellect. They who dream by day are cognizant of many things which escape those who dream only by night. In their gray visions they obtain glimpses of eternity, and thrill, in waking, to find that they have been upon the verge of the great secret.

Edgar Allan Poe (1848/1975, p. 649).​



John
I agree that reality exists in the unconscious and since truth by definition is that which is in accordance with reality, then the highest truths are those that lead us into the chaotic unknown of the unconscious - the Hero’s Journey.

To even consider voluntarily moving in the direction of chaos is a betrayal of our deepest survival instinct, but anything less than that is futile. To move toward the danger is to begin the separation process from the tribe, from the intellect, and from the feminine that raised and comforted us. It is Moses fleeing from Egypt only to toil in the desert. It is the Prodigal Son leaving his father and Adam eating the serpent’s fruit from the Tree of Knowledge. Adam ate the serpent’s fruit. Jesus ate the serpent and became the serpent. If we eat Jesus, then we eat the serpent as he did and become like him. That’s what it means to eat his flesh and drink his blood. If we avoid the serpent, avoid betraying ourselves, and stay in the counterfeit Garden, then we become dead and lost.
 
Last edited:

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
I agree that reality exists in the unconscious and since truth by definition is that which is in accordance with reality, then the highest truths are those that lead us into the chaotic unknown of the unconscious - the Hero’s Journey.

To even consider voluntarily moving in the direction of chaos is a betrayal of our deepest survival instinct, but anything less than that is futile. To move toward the danger is to begin the separation process from the tribe, from the intellect, and from the feminine that raised and comforted us. It is Moses fleeing from Egypt only to toil in the desert. It is the Prodigal Son leaving his father and Adam eating the serpent’s fruit from the Tree of Knowledge. Adam ate the serpent’s fruit. Jesus ate the serpent and became the serpent. If we eat Jesus, then we eat the serpent as he did and become like him. That’s what it means to eat his flesh and drink his blood. If we avoid the serpent, avoid betraying ourselves, and stay in the counterfeit Garden, then we become dead and lost.

Amen. . . No pain no gain.



John
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
. . . This appears to be an example of the pure mysticism I noted is only useful for the individual, and which is actually dangerous for the community, since it has no communal (objective) criteria for authenticity.

Which doesn't mean it's not true, or valuable, to you. But presented in a subjective, mystical, way, it can only offend those outside of its subjective frame of reference.



John
hence the ministry of Jesus
and the manner of which it ended

but having received....should the gift be withheld from others?

and can it be considered a gift?

and He said to His followers......I shall make you fishers of men

when you hear something spoken you have a choice to make
ignore it or consider it
having considered another choice appears
abide or deny

and then later....as we stand among the angelic
denial would be difficult
the hook that was in your ear left a scar
the hook in your lip....left a scar

how can you say you have not heard any such thing?
and if you spoke of it
it crossed over your lip
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
hence the ministry of Jesus
and the manner of which it ended

but having received....should the gift be withheld from others?

and can it be considered a gift?

and He said to His followers......I shall make you fishers of men

when you hear something spoken you have a choice to make
ignore it or consider it
having considered another choice appears
abide or deny

and then later....as we stand among the angelic
denial would be difficult
the hook that was in your ear left a scar
the hook in your lip....left a scar

how can you say you have not heard any such thing?
and if you spoke of it
it crossed over your lip

. . . Ok. The hook is in my lip. Are you going to reel me in and fillet me?



John
 
Top