Growing pains, bad influences and rebellion

[SomeRandom]

So a few years ago I fell in with the so called "anti SJW" crowd. I have since left that corner of the internet due to it's toxicity and I guess for lack of a better term, "grew up."
But why did I fall for their hyperbolic rhetoric, especially since I learnt how to spot and combat obvious rhetoric (ironically from the very people who later embraced the alt right and then were similarly burnt. Thundy why bro, just why?) Apart from me just being my usual dumb self, of course.

I bring this up in the feminist section because I think it does point to some frustration and anxiety from millennial fledgling would be feminists (or at least allies) experiencing restlessness in the movement. Experiencing a sort of disillusionment with the cause and confusion at the discussions. I think it's important to understand why kids can fall into such crowds because in essence other groups are offering something that is lacking. At least from the perspective of said kids. But why?
Feminists often splinter off and disagree with their elders, that's normal.
But what about the anti side is enticing for today's generation of otherwise liberal minded kids?

I guess for me at least, it was a combination of a few things. Not always getting pragmatic solutions from my older feminist brethren, therefore lacking the mentor-esque facet younger me was trying to find within the movement, I guess. Being on the outside of American politics (seriously, both your sides are crazy extreme) therefore not completely understanding the context to what I was encountering and chaffing under the moral policing that I often encounter from the left. (From both countries, for what it's worth. Right wing rhetoric is easier to mock because it's crazy and delusional. But Left wing rhetoric sounds like a bunch of helicopter parents banded together and decided to go to Parliament/Congress to give lectures that would make even Helen Lovejoy call them overprotective. Being a gamer, this is an easy way to instantly lose me, even if I end up agreeing with you.)
Being quite desensitized to online trolling. And a few bouts of sickness, rendering me bored, angry and surfing YouTube/forums far more often than normal. Add to that a bad temper, a dose of naivety and to be fair some examples of feminism that looks a bit out there to outsiders and you have the makings of someone wanting to rebel against a cause, for lack of a better term.

Sure, in hindsight, the movement was toxic, was making me toxic and really was just the other side of the extreme.
A lot of us did end up disowning both the Anti SJWs and the SJWs.
So is this just a case of an embarrassed middle ground millennial whining because they got suckered into an obvious toxic environment? Most likely.
But there does seem to be a disconnect between younger feminists and the bad PR they want to distance themselves from at all costs. And the movement itself. I'm just not smart enough to articulate exactly why, though.

 

[Ellen Brown]

So a few years ago I fell in with the so called "anti SJW" crowd. I have since left that corner of the internet due to it's toxicity and I guess for lack of a better term, "grew up."
But why did I fall for their hyperbolic rhetoric, especially since I learnt how to spot and combat obvious rhetoric (ironically from the very people who later embraced the alt right and then were similarly burnt. Thundy why bro, just why?) Apart from me just being my usual dumb self, of course.

I bring this up in the feminist section because I think it does point to some frustration and anxiety from millennial fledgling would be feminists (or at least allies) experiencing restlessness in the movement. Experiencing a sort of disillusionment with the cause and confusion at the discussions. I think it's important to understand why kids can fall into such crowds because in essence other groups are offering something that is lacking. At least from the perspective of said kids. But why?
Feminists often splinter off and disagree with their elders, that's normal.
But what about the anti side is enticing for today's generation of otherwise liberal minded kids?

I guess for me at least, it was a combination of a few things. Not always getting pragmatic solutions from my older feminist brethren, therefore lacking the mentor-esque facet younger me was trying to find within the movement, I guess. Being on the outside of American politics (seriously, both your sides are crazy extreme) therefore not completely understanding the context to what I was encountering and chaffing under the moral policing that I often encounter from the left. (From both countries, for what it's worth. Right wing rhetoric is easier to mock because it's crazy and delusional. But Left wing rhetoric sounds like a bunch of helicopter parents banded together and decided to go to Parliament/Congress to give lectures that would make even Helen Lovejoy call them overprotective. Being a gamer, this is an easy way to instantly lose me, even if I end up agreeing with you.)
Being quite desensitized to online trolling. And a few bouts of sickness, rendering me bored, angry and surfing YouTube/forums far more often than normal. Add to that a bad temper, a dose of naivety and to be fair some examples of feminism that looks a bit out there to outsiders and you have the makings of someone wanting to rebel against a cause, for lack of a better term.

Sure, in hindsight, the movement was toxic, was making me toxic and really was just the other side of the extreme.
A lot of us did end up disowning both the Anti SJWs and the SJWs.
So is this just a case of an embarrassed middle ground millennial whining because they got suckered into an obvious toxic environment? Most likely.
But there does seem to be a disconnect between younger feminists and the bad PR they want to distance themselves from at all costs. And the movement itself. I'm just not smart enough to articulate exactly why, though.

SJW. Are you speaking of "Social Justice Warriors"? I'd never heard the term before today.

 

[SomeRandom]

SJW. Are you speaking of "Social Justice Warriors"? I'd never heard the term before today.

Yes.

 

[Ellen Brown]

Yes.

I'm 72 and don't know a thing about what are to me, very weird groups. Where I live, in Portland, Oregon, there were a half dozen groups being really obnoxious about the ICE situation. As it happens I live right next door to that building, and in principle, object to children and parents being separated. The demonstrations against that started off on target but they quickly make a block long trash dump, and allowed their group to slew wildly off target.

I can't even begin to name the rest of the groups and I sincerely hope that they'll just get off the drugs and grow up.

For me, the Trump mindset has caused most of this.

 

[SomeRandom]

I'm 72 and don't know a thing about what are to me, very weird groups. Where I live, in Portland, Oregon, there were a half dozen groups being really obnoxious about the ICE situation. As it happens I live right next door to that building, and in principle, object to children and parents being separated. The demonstrations against that started off on target but they quickly make a block long trash dump, and allowed their group to slew wildly off target.

I can't even begin to name the rest of the groups and I sincerely hope that they'll just get off the drugs and grow up.

For me, the Trump mindset has caused most of this.

Okay now I’m the one out of the loop. What ICE situation? And what does Trump have to do with it?

 

[Ellen Brown]

Okay now I’m the one out of the loop. What ICE situation? And what does Trump have to do with it?

Oh, I see you are from Australia, so that whole ruction may not have touched you.

 

[SomeRandom]

Oh, I see you are from Australia, so that whole ruction may not have touched you.

Indeed

 

[PureX]

So a few years ago I fell in with the so called "anti SJW" crowd. I have since left that corner of the internet due to it's toxicity and I guess for lack of a better term, "grew up."
But why did I fall for their hyperbolic rhetoric, especially since I learnt how to spot and combat obvious rhetoric (ironically from the very people who later embraced the alt right and then were similarly burnt. Thundy why bro, just why?) Apart from me just being my usual dumb self, of course.

I bring this up in the feminist section because I think it does point to some frustration and anxiety from millennial fledgling would be feminists (or at least allies) experiencing restlessness in the movement. Experiencing a sort of disillusionment with the cause and confusion at the discussions. I think it's important to understand why kids can fall into such crowds because in essence other groups are offering something that is lacking. At least from the perspective of said kids. But why?
Feminists often splinter off and disagree with their elders, that's normal.
But what about the anti side is enticing for today's generation of otherwise liberal minded kids?

I guess for me at least, it was a combination of a few things. Not always getting pragmatic solutions from my older feminist brethren, therefore lacking the mentor-esque facet younger me was trying to find within the movement, I guess. Being on the outside of American politics (seriously, both your sides are crazy extreme) therefore not completely understanding the context to what I was encountering and chaffing under the moral policing that I often encounter from the left. (From both countries, for what it's worth. Right wing rhetoric is easier to mock because it's crazy and delusional. But Left wing rhetoric sounds like a bunch of helicopter parents banded together and decided to go to Parliament/Congress to give lectures that would make even Helen Lovejoy call them overprotective. Being a gamer, this is an easy way to instantly lose me, even if I end up agreeing with you.)
Being quite desensitized to online trolling. And a few bouts of sickness, rendering me bored, angry and surfing YouTube/forums far more often than normal. Add to that a bad temper, a dose of naivety and to be fair some examples of feminism that looks a bit out there to outsiders and you have the makings of someone wanting to rebel against a cause, for lack of a better term.

Sure, in hindsight, the movement was toxic, was making me toxic and really was just the other side of the extreme.
A lot of us did end up disowning both the Anti SJWs and the SJWs.
So is this just a case of an embarrassed middle ground millennial whining because they got suckered into an obvious toxic environment? Most likely.
But there does seem to be a disconnect between younger feminists and the bad PR they want to distance themselves from at all costs. And the movement itself. I'm just not smart enough to articulate exactly why, though.

I think the problem lies in allowing groups of other people and their causes to define your ideals for you. Once you have clearly identified the 'goals' you aspire to, you can use those groups to that end, rather than them using you, to theirs. Stop being such a lemming, and you won't get 'suckered' so easily. But that means you have to put in your own work, defining your own ideals, and figuring out how to move in that direction.

Good luck.

 

[SomeRandom]

I think the problem lies in allowing groups of other people and their causes to define your ideals for you. Once you have clearly identified the 'goals' you aspire to, you can use those groups to that end, rather than them using you, to theirs. Stop being such a lemming, and you won't get 'suckered' so easily. But that means you have to put in your own work, defining your own ideals, and figuring out how to move in that direction.

Good luck.

Whilst that is certainly solid advice, I'm talking about essentially growing up on the internet. When you're in your adolescence, it's very easy to strongly identify with things like causes or even fandoms. Hell I'd even argue that people identify with their fandoms well into adulthood.
I simply want to point out that causes like feminism or what have you need to be aware of today's world and not ostensibly dismiss young people like I feel they do. It's very easy to dismiss a naive teenager, but that teenager is still a person. Perhaps in need of some guidance. I think some of the oldies can accidentally miss that, causing said teen who could be a potential ally, to look for other sources. Perhaps even in the wrong places, so to speak.
I'm not trying to troll or just have a whinge, but I think it would be good to look at the especially divisive nature of politics and identities that has arisen as of late (especially among young people) and address it.

 

[PureX]

Whilst that is certainly solid advice, I'm talking about essentially growing up on the internet. When you're in your adolescence, it's very easy to strongly identify with things like causes or even fandoms. Hell I'd even argue that people identify with their fandoms well into adulthood.
I simply want to point out that causes like feminism or what have you need to be aware of today's world and not ostensibly dismiss young people like I feel they do. It's very easy to dismiss a naive teenager, but that teenager is still a person. Perhaps in need of some guidance. I think some of the oldies can accidentally miss that, causing said teen who could be a potential ally, to look for other sources. Perhaps even in the wrong places, so to speak.
I'm not trying to troll or just have a whinge, but I think it would be good to look at the especially divisive nature of politics and identities that has arisen as of late (especially among young people) and address it.

The internet is just a big sea of information (and misinformation) about life. It is NOT life, itself. The information can be helpful (if you can distinguish it from the misinformation) but ultimately the real answers will have to be found in real life. The advice I would give to young people is to be skeptical, be dubious, of everything. Even your own 'ideals'. With time and experience the truth will eventually make itself recognizable, and until then we're all going to be wrong a whole lot of the time, and being wrong has consequences.

 

[stellaluna]

Even those of us who didn't "grow up online" formed strong attachments to communities, ideas, people, and things. We still found parts of our identities by joining groups of like-minded individuals. There is good advice to be had already: defining your own goals (and beliefs) and not mistaking all information as solid information.

Among the younger people I personally know, there is an expectation that you Google something, read a webpage, and now you know all there is to know--or at least enough. In fact, I would encourage anyone under the age of...35 maybe?...to do some deep digging into history and feminist theory. This will require getting off the internet and getting into your local library. I promise it will be worth it as you figure out what you believe and where you fit in the overall movement.

 

[Jim]

I bring this up in the feminist section because I think it does point to some frustration and anxiety from millennial fledgling would be feminists (or at least allies) experiencing restlessness in the movement. Experiencing a sort of disillusionment with the cause and confusion at the discussions. I think it's important to understand why kids can fall into such crowds because in essence other groups are offering something that is lacking. At least from the perspective of said kids.

I simply want to point out that causes like feminism or what have you need to be aware of today's world and not ostensibly dismiss young people like I feel they do. It's very easy to dismiss a naive teenager, but that teenager is still a person. Perhaps in need of some guidance. I think some of the oldies can accidentally miss that, causing said teen who could be a potential ally, to look for other sources. Perhaps even in the wrong places, so to speak.

I'm not trying to troll or just have a whinge, but I think it would be good to look at the especially divisive nature of politics and identities that has arisen as of late (especially among young people) and address it.

I’d like to see if I understand what your point is. You think that people promoting feminism might be losing potential allies because of our attitudes and behavior towards young people who disagree with us or disapprove of things we say and do? You think that if we understand better why some people are attracted to factions opposed to us, it will help us communicate better, so we won’t lose as many potential allies?

(Edited to add the following)
I’m wondering now if you’re hoping, yourself, for some feminists to understand your objections to feminism or some kinds of feminism. I might be able to help you with that, but not in a feminist forum.

 

[SomeRandom]

I’d like to see if I understand what your point is. You think that people promoting feminism might be losing potential allies because of our attitudes and behavior towards young people who disagree with us or disapprove of things we say and do? You think that if we understand better why some people are attracted to factions opposed to us, it will help us communicate better, so we won’t lose as many potential allies?

(Edited to add the following)
I’m wondering now if you’re hoping, yourself, for some feminists to understand your objections to feminism or some kinds of feminism. I might be able to help you with that, but not in a feminist forum.

I think as with all things, understanding is more powerful than condemnation.
I was a pretty average, liberal but lazy feminist in my younger days. Ran in many progressive circles. It was mostly the YA book scene in all honesty. But we were young, eager to please and armed with social media and enthusiasm. We all sought to “fight the good fight.” I began to become dissillusioned with the more fervent aspects of “call out culture.”
The various hashtags and community led mini protests calling out sexist comments wherever we could. Even egged on by older more trusted members of the community. Comments made by professionals and laymen that were “scandalous.” Or needed to be counteracted against.

I remember an incident on YouTube years ago, when an old white guy (heh) made a flippant comment about how he didn’t think Young ladies who had perfect makeup were “real readers.” Referring to the obvious squeaky clean production values and pristine “camera makeup” of many popular young BookTubers at the time. People went nuts. They hounded his social media, I think a few even called his work to try to punish him. The hashtag movement #fakereadergirls was actually around a little before this video. Afterwards, it became this a huge issue, at least for that community. With everyone pretty much telling people to rebuke this obvious sexist individual. I got curious and went to the offending video. I disagreed with his opinion, but he seemed like a decent enough guy. Watched his other stuff and realised they had entirely misjudged him and were trying to enact some weird witch trial. I have no doubt that if he had said something a little more scandalous they might have succeeded in getting him fired. Which kind of scares me.

So I went searching for the “other side” and they made just as many good points. At least at first. I tried to remain neutral but it slowly become something a screaming match. Gamergate happened, people drew lines in the sand and both sides used their own rhetoric and demonised the other.
Perhaps because I had built an automatic defense mechanism as a gamer I started to align myself against what I saw as just another slinging match targeting gamers yet again led by third wave feminist critics.

It wasn’t the people who were (rightly, to be fair) calling me out for some of my positions that changed my mind. That’s just self fulfilling prophesy. It was the more neutral and calm responses that made me examine the flaws in “my side.”
Because that forced me to calm down, which I guess in turn forced me to think more rationally. It’s easy to get lost in the righteousness in your cause.

I think I disagree more with call out culture and using shame tactics to demonise younger potential allies for not being “woke” enough, more than anything else. I saw it happening in the bookworm communities, I saw it happening in many fandoms and especially among gamers. I even saw it in some universities! People would play oppression olympics, whether they meant to or not. Or go out of their way to prove how progressive they were, seemingly encouraged to by older members. But especially for youngsters who are trying to be socially conscious and fit in with their political ideological group, that can either demoralise them or even turn them towards other avenues.
Perhaps it’s gotten better since I left those corners, it was a while ago. Although judging by some videos made by disgruntled fans still in those communities recently, maybe it lingers.
I’m not saying this is representative of feminism today, of course. But there is sometimes this culture of “towing the party line or else you are our enemy” in certain circles.

As for hoping for some feminists to understand my objections. I think I have to reexamine whatever objections I thought I had. I think I need to properly look at feminism, it’s positions and arguments. Because it was always framed to me in certain lights (anti SJW rhetoric and perhaps an inaccurate but well meaning interesectional explanations.)

 

[Jim]

As for hoping for some feminists to understand my objections. I think I have to reexamine whatever objections I thought I had. I think I need to properly look at feminism, it’s positions and arguments. Because it was always framed to me in certain lights (anti SJW rhetoric and perhaps an inaccurate but well meaning interesectional explanations.)

I’m still not sure if you’re looking for someone to discuss this with, or you just want to get some things off your chest. If you’re looking for someone to discuss this with, I’m volunteering for that, but not in a feminist forum.

 

[SomeRandom]

I’m still not sure if you’re looking for someone to discuss this with, or you just want to get some things off your chest. If you’re looking for someone to discuss this with, I’m volunteering for that, but not in a feminist forum.

Perhaps a little of both. This was mostly a rant to get rid of some of my previous toxicity. A cleansing if you will.