Greetings, Hebrews!

[Deut 13:1]

Okay, well you said my beliefs were "trash" and that they violate "the essence of Judaism," so I was just checking.

Well... You're more then free to prove otherwise.

 

[JonM]

I don't think that's my job. I think it's your responsibility to let me have my beliefs and treat me as an equal, because you and I are of the same blood. That would be true just from human to human, but it's certainly true for two Jews. You've heard what I think of the Torah and Halacha. Many Jews agree with me, many with you, and most are somewhere in between. I am as much a Jew as you are.

I knew I would be a controversial figure here, but I didn't expect people to challenge the validity of my beliefs. I thought people on a forum devoted to religion would understand that religion is a deeply personal thing, regardless of one's degree of observance. Pointing out internal inconsistencies in one's belief system and making ethical arguments against someone is one thing, but asserting that one's mode of faith is "trash" is quite another. A lot of rabbis would not be okay with that, either.

 

[Deut 13:1]

I don't think that's my job. I think it's your responsibility to let me have my beliefs and treat me as an equal, because you and I are of the same blood. That would be true just from human to human, but it's certainly true for two Jews. You've heard what I think of the Torah and Halacha. Many Jews agree with me, many with you, and most are somewhere in between. I am as much a Jew as you are.

I'm not saying you're not a jew, in fact, I said...

Were you born of a Jewish mother? Then you're Jewish. Period. Nor have I claimed yer not Jewish, so don't put words in my mouth.

I knew I would be a controversial figure here, but I didn't expect people to challenge the validity of my beliefs. I thought people on a forum devoted to religion would understand that religion is a deeply personal thing, regardless of one's degree of observance. Pointing out internal inconsistencies in one's belief system and making ethical arguments against someone is one thing, but asserting that one's mode of faith is "trash" is quite another. A lot of rabbis would not be okay with that, either.

You're taking this wayyy to personal. The fact is from what you've said that your relationship w/ G-d is on your terms. I find that concept trash. G-d says to love him by doing his commandments, not by ignoring them but proclaiming yer love over and over.

If you're not able to do all of His commandments, fine, just say so. But arbitarily picking which are valid and which aren't is doing the same thing Christianity is doing. Making the relationship on your terms.

 

[JonM]

You're taking this wayyy to personal. The fact is from what you've said that your relationship w/ G-d is on your terms. I find that concept trash. G-d says to love him by doing his commandments, not by ignoring them but proclaiming yer love over and over.

If you're not able to do all of His commandments, fine, just say so. But arbitarily picking which are valid and which aren't is doing the same thing Christianity is doing. Making the relationship on your terms.

The concept you find to be trash is the heart of my beliefs and the root of my faith. Consider that for a second.

I do not believe that the Torah is the word of God. That is the difference between our faiths. I believe that God is above words, and that His inspiration drove humans to include His divine influence in the historical record they kept. The survival of the Jews across history was improbable, so our ancestors believed that God had to have been responsible for our deliverance. I believe He was, and I believe that His inspiration, represented by the Torah, spurred our people onward in the face of adversity, and that is why the Torah is holy to me, not because it was written by God. Still, I respect your position immensely. It is your belief that Torah is the word of God that sustained our people through millennia of hardship, and it is completely understandable to me why many Jews still believe that. It just so happens that I, as well as most Reconstructionists, do not. We still think the Torah is holy, and we still feel bound by God to be responsible for other people, but we do not believe that the commandments that are just between us and God are necessary. We keep the ones we are moved to keep.

 

[Deut 13:1]

We keep the ones we are moved to keep.

and murder? What if I don't feel like keeping that one today...

 

[JonM]

Here's the thing...

I believe that God does not communicate in words is because all of my encounters with the divine have been wordless. Since all of creation is God's expression, the written word conveys a negligible amount of information compared to, well, the totality of observable existence, or even just the tiny fraction of it that I've experienced. I hear so much more of God from the room full of loving people chanting and singing together than I do from the actual words they're chanting. We could just as easily be humming and I'd still get it.

In the same way, when I do something right, the results feel right, and when I do something wrong, they feel wrong. I derive my morality from my understanding of the impacts of my actions on God's creation, whether my actions make the world better or worse. Accordingly, my inability to always do right results from both my lack of perspective on the impacts of my actions and my relatively low number of repetitions of one action to determine its general impact. Both of these things improve with time and experience. The point is that I bend to God's authority all the time, but only when I see that authority being implemented. I feel that the words in the Torah can't be the exact prescription for right living, because I don't keep kosher (completely, though I'm off the hook with anything involving meat), I frequently work on Saturday, and I don't approve of capital punishment, and the world, God's creation, seems to be better, or at least no worse, for all of that. But I can readily believe that people 6,000 years ago, with drastically less advanced science and a much smaller universe, believed that such commandments must have been from God, because it seemed that good came from following them then. Do you see what I mean? Many of the commandments are obvious to me; I'm aware of what the consequences would be if I killed someone, stole something, or even disrespected my parents, and I see that as God's will that I not do those things. But there just isn't the same impact from not cutting the hair on the sides of my head.

 

[jewscout]

But I can readily believe that people 6,000 years ago, with drastically less advanced science and a much smaller universe, believed that such commandments must have been from God, because it seemed that good came from following them then.

i find this true even today of following mitzvot...or as many as i can

to me the Torah is the word of G-d, because one can look at it through many different angles. It's like it exists on multiple levels and one can appreciate it on any number of levels. to me it is like a diamond where light enters and then it's multifacets fracture the light into a beautiful rainbow. Because it exists on these many levels, IMPO, only a being that exists on a level greater and higher than ourselves could have revealed it.

but then that's just my personal opinion....i could be wrong

 

[JonM]

Because it exists on these many levels, IMPO, only a being that exists on a level greater and higher than ourselves could have revealed it.

That makes sense to me, but I feel that human poets are just as capable of such work, but that may have more to do with the fact that I haven't reached every level on which the Torah operates.

i could be wrong

So could I, my friend. Easily.

 

[jewscout]

That makes sense to me, but I feel that human poets are just as capable of such work, but that may have more to do with the fact that I haven't reached every level on which the Torah operates.

nor have i but, to me anyways, it seems like the knowledge the Torah holds goes on and on...i can't imagine shakespeare doing the same w/ his work, as great as it is held.

 

[JonM]

nor have i but, to me anyways, it seems like the knowledge the Torah holds goes on and on...i can't imagine shakespeare doing the same w/ his work, as great as it is held.

Perhaps if he wrote something as long as the Torah?

Although, I just realized a really major distinction that makes me take back what I said. Poetry is language-specific, and it is the precise wording of a poem, from the sounds to the rhythm to the rhyme, that gives its content multiple layers of significance. Whereas the Torah is written in a language of which I only know a tiny amount, certainly not enough to understand a written page, and it is translated differently by everyone, and its layers of meaning are revealed by the content alone. Normally, I'd say that biased translation was to blame, except that with the Torah, this is still true of the most objective, literal translations available.

Not that my immediate conclusion is that this is evidence of the Torah's divine origin, but it's still remarkable.

 

[Avi]

And where have I put forth an argument based on health? Open your version of the Torah to Exodus 23:19, Exodus 34:26 and Deuteronomy 14:21.

That wasn't for you, Binyamin. It was for Yoni, here.

 

[JonM]

That wasn't for you, Binyamin. It was for Yoni, here.

Health was always just sort of my understanding of why the emphasis was cleanliness in some cases. I may have been thinking too literally. I'm really just speculating on what the underlying motivations for some of the seemingly arbitrary laws, such as the two you mentioned, must have been. Of course, that's because I believe that they were written by people, so you may find that totally blasphemous.

 

[Avi]

Well the Torah describes foods as being tahor and tamai. These terms are never used to describe the actual physical sense of clean or unclean, but rather are used to describe a spiritual or moral state of being. Tamai meaning more accurately "defilement" and tahor as "pure." For this reason, Torah doesn't explicitly state any physical reason why one has to eat according to kashrut, only because it is tahor.

 

[Deut 13:1]

I believe that God does not communicate in words is because all of my encounters with the divine have been wordless. Since all of creation is God's expression, the written word conveys a negligible amount of information compared to, well, the totality of observable existence, or even just the tiny fraction of it that I've experienced. I hear so much more of God from the room full of loving people chanting and singing together than I do from the actual words they're chanting. We could just as easily be humming and I'd still get it.

Yes, it's called a niggun, or however you spell it. There are tons of them.

In the same way, when I do something right, the results feel right, and when I do something wrong, they feel wrong. I derive my morality from my understanding of the impacts of my actions on God's creation, whether my actions make the world better or worse.

So you believe in relative morality. Fine, what if I feel murdering John Doe is what G-d wants me to do today.

I frequently work on Saturday, and I don't approve of capital punishment, and the world, God's creation, seems to be better, or at least no worse, for all of that.

I kind of guessed you were not shomer shabbas,

Yes, and you will be hard-pressed to find one Orthodox Jew who would encourage the death penalty right now.

But I can readily believe that people 6,000 years ago, with drastically less advanced science and a much smaller universe, believed that such commandments must have been from God, because it seemed that good came from following them then. Do you see what I mean?

If it's possible that men made up Mitzvah # x, y, and z, isn't it more then likely that mitzvah g (don't murder), could have and probably was made up?

Many of the commandments are obvious to me; I'm aware of what the consequences would be if I killed someone, stole something, or even disrespected my parents, and I see that as God's will that I not do those things. But there just isn't the same impact from not cutting the hair on the sides of my head.

Be honest, have you ever read what the regulations are...? And the commentary of Rabbinic scholars?

 

[Deut 13:1]

That wasn't for you, Binyamin. It was for Yoni, here.

Apologies.

 

[JonM]

Yes, it's called a niggun, or however you spell it. There are tons of them.

That's not my point. My point is that it's more about the community and the music than the words.

So you believe in relative morality. Fine, what if I feel murdering John Doe is what G-d wants me to do today.

I mean, that's really not what I said. Read it again.

I kind of guessed you were not shomer shabbas,

Not in the traditional sense, no. I almost always do something spiritual to mark the beginning and the end of Shabbat, and I always use my weekends for rest and integration of the events of the week, I just don't follow the rules to the letter. I follow the spirit.

Yes, and you will be hard-pressed to find one Orthodox Jew who would encourage the death penalty right now.

If that's the case, then they are not following the laws in the Torah that call for capital punishment for crimes far less heinous than those that result in the death penalty in the modern American legal system.

If it's possible that men made up Mitzvah # x, y, and z, isn't it more then likely that mitzvah g (don't murder), could have and probably was made up?

I never said "made up." I said:

I can readily believe that people 6,000 years ago, with drastically less advanced science and a much smaller universe, believed that such commandments must have been from God, because it seemed that good came from following them then.

In no way do I believe that the laws of the Torah were made up. I believe that they were the best possible understandings of God's creation available to people of a much simpler time, and now our understanding is better. Our understanding of God's law has improved! We are closer to God! So we have new laws, compiled in modern Reconstructionist commentaries, but mostly just determined by discourse within Reconstructionist communities. For that reason, we are very politically active as a religious group.

Be honest, have you ever read what the regulations are...? And the commentary of Rabbinic scholars?

I can say with utmost honesty that I am more learned about the 613 mitzvot than the majority of Jews I've ever met. That is relative, of course, because most Jews I've met are not very observant, but I did go to religious school at a Traditional synagogue up until I reached Bar Mitzvah age. In fact, I'd say my knowledge of the mitzvot, while detailed, was limited and slanted because of the Orthodox agenda at my synagogue, and for that reason I rejected it, and Judaism altogether, for a long time.

As for the commentary, of course I'm not as well read as you are. I'm eighteen years old. We learned some Mishnah in religious school, and I've thumbed disinterestedly through a Tanakh under the supervision of my old rabbi, but I couldn't really quote anything for you. My knowledge of Talmud is practically the Wikipedia version. I realize that. However, the beliefs I'm defending to you are not just mine. They are the beliefs of an entire order of Jews who have their own rabbinic commentaries. Orthodox Jews may reject them because they're less than 50 years old instead of 5,000, but Reconstructionists see them as equally valid and more applicable to our time.

 

[Avi]

That's not my point. My point is that it's more about the community and the music than the words.

Let me ask you: What is more important to G-d, in your opinion, deeds or "faith" in him?

Not in the traditional sense, no. I almost always do something spiritual to mark the beginning and the end of Shabbat, and I always use my weekends for rest and integration of the events of the week, I just don't follow the rules to the letter. I follow the spirit.

The spirit? The spirit of the shabbat was to rest as G-d did; i.e. ABSTAIN from work. Work, logically can constitute any form of human invention or power over nature, can we accept that? Lets say we do: would it not be spiritually satisfying to remind oneself of the humility one feels before G-d? Not to turn on a light or drive or watch TV? All of which demonstrates how technologically advanced we are; and the power over nature we possess, when we suspend all of this, we give G-d that day to honor him and to the nature he created for us to endure.

Is that not spiritual?

In no way do I believe that the laws of the Torah were made up. I believe that they were the best possible understandings of God's creation available to people of a much simpler time, and now our understanding is better. Our understanding of God's law has improved! We are closer to God! So we have new laws, compiled in modern Reconstructionist commentaries, but mostly just determined by discourse within Reconstructionist communities. For that reason, we are very politically active as a religious group.

Be careful when you say: "Our understanding of G-d's law has improved!" Or, for that matter, we are closer to G-d. A bold statement such as this makes you sound as if your struggle with Torah (for this case, lets just refer to it as a form of religious commandments) is easier now than it was for the ancient Israelites. I believe that symbolizes the covenant and immortality of Jewish brotherhood; the fact that our struggle now is just the same as our ancestors today (I know I am not of the covenant, but for the my sake, and the inevitability, I will refer to your people as my people too).

As for the commentary, of course I'm not as well read as you are. I'm eighteen years old. We learned some Mishnah in religious school, and I've thumbed disinterestedly through a Tanakh under the supervision of my old rabbi, but I couldn't really quote anything for you. My knowledge of Talmud is practically the Wikipedia version. I realize that. However, the beliefs I'm defending to you are not just mine. They are the beliefs of an entire order of Jews who have their own rabbinic commentaries. Orthodox Jews may reject them because they're less than 50 years old instead of 5,000, but Reconstructionists see them as equally valid and more applicable to our time.

Commentary takes hundreds, if not thousands, of years of scrutiny and review to be accepted into the halakha. If we accepted commentary newer than that we would not give those commentaries time to be reviewed by several generations in order to ensure its absolute reverence to Torah. I think it absurd to alter Jewish tradition in such a short time!

 

[Deut 13:1]

That's not my point. My point is that it's more about the community and the music than the words.

Yes, and my point is orthodox judaism also has things that are more important then the words, aka music (although w/out instruments)

Not in the traditional sense, no. I almost always do something spiritual to mark the beginning and the end of Shabbat, and I always use my weekends for rest and integration of the events of the week, I just don't follow the rules to the letter. I follow the spirit.

Would my gentile roommate would be considered Jewish then? He welcomes the Sabbath with a frat party... Not that he even knows it's the Sabbath.

I never said "made up." I said:
In no way do I believe that the laws of the Torah were made up. I believe that they were the best possible understandings of God's creation available to people of a much simpler time, and now our understanding is better. Our understanding of God's law has improved! We are closer to God! So we have new laws, compiled in modern Reconstructionist commentaries, but mostly just determined by discourse within Reconstructionist communities. For that reason, we are very politically active as a religious group.

Explain to me how you become closer by ignoring what G-d says? Oh you have deleted and added new laws, I'm so glad that you and your buddies admit to be liers. Do me the honor and open your Torah up to Deut 4:2 and 13:1-7 and remind me what they say, my memory must be hazy...

I can say with utmost honesty that I am more learned about the 613 mitzvot than the majority of Jews I've ever met. That is relative, of course, because most Jews I've met are not very observant, but I did go to religious school at a Traditional synagogue up until I reached Bar Mitzvah age. In fact, I'd say my knowledge of the mitzvot, while detailed, was limited and slanted because of the Orthodox agenda at my synagogue, and for that reason I rejected it, and Judaism altogether, for a long time.

Good, let's talk about Tefillin then. What in your opinion is Tefillin, and the reason we use it?

As for the commentary, of course I'm not as well read as you are. I'm eighteen years old.

And how old do you think I am???

We learned some Mishnah in religious school, and I've thumbed disinterestedly through a Tanakh under the supervision of my old rabbi, but I couldn't really quote anything for you. My knowledge of Talmud is practically the Wikipedia version. I realize that. However, the beliefs I'm defending to you are not just mine.

Well, at least you know what the terms are. :bounce

They are the beliefs of an entire order of Jews who have their own rabbinic commentaries.

Well, Most of them probably don't even know what the Talmud is. At the school I go to, there are 30 Jews or so, 2 furm including me. I'd venture to say the majority go to service on Rosh Hashana, Yom Kippur, and a few attempt to keep reformed kosher during Pesach, although they are so poorly educated in Judaism they don't realize the plates are not kosher. It's sad more then anything else, they were cheated out of their history as well as a solid education. If they don't want to be observant, fine, but I think they should at least have the educational background to make a educated decision.

Orthodox Jews may reject them because they're less than 50 years old instead of 5,000, but Reconstructionists see them as equally valid and more applicable to our time.

You know, I think I'm going to go write down my own commentary on the verses, maybe change a few things here or there, such as murder, and you know, I always wanted to worship 10 G-ds, not 1, maybe I'll change that too, but because I'm born Jewish by halacha, I think I'll call it The New Reformed-Reconstructionalist Judaism. I bet you I can even get my own forum too!

Do you see how ridiculous this argument sounds when you make the relationship on your terms and not G-d's? I just took it a step further with my sarcasm.

 

[JonM]

Here, I'll respond to both of you at once.

My response to your criticisms is complex, but as far as it concerns me personally, I feel that I must leave lots of room for you to be right. Let me put it this way: for the last few days, what I've been defending is a significant portion of American Jewry that legitimately feels this way. I have felt that your responses have been too condemning for a recognized denomination, with its own seminary, youth programs, and nationwide organization. That is why I have defended them so adamantly, often pulling in resources over which I have no mastery to try and do so.

However, as I take your responses increasingly personally, as I am forced to be more creative and insert more of my own beliefs as you push me further, I have begun to observe major flaws in my way of thinking. It's as if I put up subconscious defenses against every religious teaching against egoism that I have ever heard, accepting them intellectually but preventing them from integrating into my worldview. Only this can account for my failure to realize that, for someone who affirmatively believes in God such as myself (which actually sets me apart from a lot of Reconstructionists I know), truth, knowledge, and authority can only come from outside myself. I half-realized this, so I created an elaborate logical ruse which gave the appearance that my morality was derived from the outside, but it placed the final word with my powers of observation. Had I consistently followed my logic that all creation is God's expression, I would have realized that any hierarchy I constructed for that creation would have been false. It is not within my authority to say that the rest of creation is more significant than the Torah.

With that in mind, the conclusion that I come to is that I don't know, but the fear of not knowing is surely a call to find out. I have to study. Binyamin, if you are my age, I'm sure you could tell me that the rabbis insist that Jews of our age study and surround ourselves with more learned people as much as possible. At my secular schools, and since we left the Traditional synagoguge (which I can safely say would not have been the right place for me), I have not had that opportunity. Next semester, though, I am doing just that.

It is a comfort to know that I am still living out God's will, and that it will simply become easier and more apparent as my life goes on. Perhaps Torah is the way for me, perhaps not. It would be foolish to say for certain, but I know that I am compelled to approach it and find out.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

An excellent post, JonM.