When you look at the evidence (dimensions/building of ark, geography & topography of the earth, etc.), it has already been concluded by experts that Noah's ark, the flood, the survival of humanity and the animal kingdom is fact. Given the tremendous impact the flood had on Noah and his family, no doubt Noah told his descendants about the flood and each successive generation continued to do the same. After the people/languages were scattered at the Tower of Babel, those people carried the legend about the flood with them, each adding/changing a little bit, but all with the same core truth of a flood of proportional magnitude. Noah's ark is not a myth, but the those stories that follow do contain some myth.
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Greek Mythology - Noah's Ark
- Thread starter skills101
- Start date
No, nothing of the kind has been "concluded by experts". Pick up any standard text on geology and look up the "Global Flood". Point to the expert that talks of the Koala exodus from the environs of Mount Ararat to Australia. Your "experts" are nothing, and can be nothing, beyond a tired fundamentalist fringe embarrassing themself with their tiresome campaign against the advances of science.Ernestine said:
The Voice of Reason
Doctor of Thinkology
Linwood,
Why would he/she bother reading the prior 4 pages of posts? He/she already knows that anyone that doesn't agree with him/her is wrong, and will be going to hell. You and Deut both have enough life under your belt to know that Ernestine is not going to listen to logic, use his/her mind rationally, or try learn anything. He/she is simply here to tell the rest of us that we are lost, he/she knows what God wants, and will do all of this in an effort to "save our souls".
My prediction - Ernestine will stay with us just long enough to prostelytize, be challenged to defend his/her positions, get embarrased by people that can think, and then disappear into the ether from whence he/she came.
Of course, Ernestine could respond to both of the above posts with some facts, cite some legitimate experts, and convince us all of the error of our ways - but I'd bet against it.
TVOR
Why would he/she bother reading the prior 4 pages of posts? He/she already knows that anyone that doesn't agree with him/her is wrong, and will be going to hell. You and Deut both have enough life under your belt to know that Ernestine is not going to listen to logic, use his/her mind rationally, or try learn anything. He/she is simply here to tell the rest of us that we are lost, he/she knows what God wants, and will do all of this in an effort to "save our souls".
My prediction - Ernestine will stay with us just long enough to prostelytize, be challenged to defend his/her positions, get embarrased by people that can think, and then disappear into the ether from whence he/she came.
Of course, Ernestine could respond to both of the above posts with some facts, cite some legitimate experts, and convince us all of the error of our ways - but I'd bet against it.
TVOR
What's so impossible about Noah's story? Scholars believe tht the ancient cubit was 18 inches in length. Given that assumption the ark would have been 450 feet long, 75 feet wide and 45 feet high. The ark had 3 decks with a total floor space of 101,250 sq. feet. The decks provided a height equal to a 4-story building. Naval architects have noted that the biblical dimensions of the ark are startling different from those found in ancient mythological accounts of a flood (e.g. Epic of Gilgamesh). Architects note that the width to length ratio of Noah's ark was 6 to 1, providing excellent stability for a ship. They estimate that with those dimiensions it would be almost impossible to overturn despite massive waves or high seas. The total capacity of the ark was equivalent to 569 modern railroad stock cars. Although there are more than a million species found on earth, the vast majority are capable of living in water. Scholars estimate that there are only 18,000 species of land animals alive today--it is obvious that the ark could have easily held two of each species with still enough space for living and storing adequate amounts of food and water. Noah didn't gather the animals into the ark himself. The scriptures say, "There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, AS GOD HAD COMMANDED". Prior to Noah's flood it had not rained on earth, however waters were stored in the firmament that encircled the earth. Those are the waters that were released. If you were to imagine the earth as a smooth sphere, water would cover the entire surface of the earth to a depth of two miles. Scientists have located seashells, fish fossils, etc. far from existing river, lakes or seas that show that massive seas once covered large portions of the globe.
linwood
Well-Known Member
Ernestine,
None of what you`ve stated is "obvious".
In fact it`s been pretty seriously refuted in this thread.
I`m not about to go over everything I`ve already been over so if you`d like to fire this debate back up pick a topic and lets go.
I`ll pick one for you if you like.
I`ve already stated how it wasn`t possible.
Refute please and we`ll go from there.
Or perhaps you`d like to cite your source for your last comment?
None of what you`ve stated is "obvious".
In fact it`s been pretty seriously refuted in this thread.
I`m not about to go over everything I`ve already been over so if you`d like to fire this debate back up pick a topic and lets go.
I`ll pick one for you if you like.
You will have to explain to me HOW it is obvious the ark was large enough to fit all the creatures with no problems that the Bible states it must have.
I`ve already stated how it wasn`t possible.
Refute please and we`ll go from there.
Or perhaps you`d like to cite your source for your last comment?
It might be a good idea.
harold e. rice
Member
Comparing the stories
The Chaldean Flood Tablets from the city of Ur in what is now Southern Iraq, describe how the Bablylonian God Ea had decided to eliminate humans and other land animals with a great flood which was to become "the end of all flesh". He selected Ut-Napishtim, to build an ark to save a few humans, and samples of other animals.
The Babylonian text "The Epic of Galgamesh" and the Hebrew story are essentially identical with about 20 major points in common. In both cases:
#The Genesis story describes how mankind had become obnoxious to God; they were hopelessly sinful and wicked. In the Babylonian story, they were too numerous and noisy.
#The Gods (or God) decided to send a worldwide flood. This would drown men, women, children, babies and infants, as well as eliminate all of the land animals and birds.
#The Gods (or God) knew of one righteous man, Ut-Napishtim or Noah.
#
The Gods (or God) ordered the hero to build a multi-story wooden ark (called a chest or box in the original Hebrew).
#The hero initially complained about the assignment to build the boat
#
The ark would be sealed with pitch.
#
The ark would have with many internal compartments
#
It would have a single door
#
It would have at least one window.
#The ark was built and loaded with the hero, a few other humans, and samples from all species of other land animals.
#A great rain covered the land with water.
#The mountains were initially covered with water.
#The ark landed on a mountain in the Middle East.
#The hero sent out birds at regular intervals to find if any dry land was in the vicinity.
#The first two birds returned to the ark. The third bird apparently found dry land because it did not return.
#The hero and his family left the ark, ritually killed an animal, offered it as a sacrifice.
#God (or the Gods in the Epic of Gilgamesh) smelled the roasted meat of the sacrifice.
#The hero was blessed.
#The Babylonian gods seemed genuinely sorry for the genocide that they had created. The God of Noah appears to have regretted his actions as well, because he promised never to do it again.
The were a number of differences between the two stories:
#
Noah received his instructions directly from Jehovah; Ut-Napishtim received them indirectly during a dream.
#
Noah's ark was 3 stories high and rectangular in shape. Two estimated dimensions are 547 x 91 ft. and 450 x 75 ft. The Babylonian ark was 6 stories high and square.
#Ut-Napishtim invited additional people on board: a pilot and some skilled workmen.
#Noah's ark landed on Mt. Ararat; Ut-Napishtim'sat on Mt. Nisir; these locations are both in the Middle East, and are located few hundred miles apart
In the Bible, some of the water emerged from beneath the earth. And the rains from above lasted for 40 days and nights. A 40 day interval often symbolized a period of judgment in the Hebrew Scriptures. In the Babylonian account, the water came only in the form of rain, and lasted only 6 days.
#Noah released a raven once and a dove twice; Ut-Napishtim released three birds: a dove, swallow and raven.
The book of Genesis was first written down around 2,700 years ago.
The story of Ut-Napishtim was written down on tablets at least 2 thousand years before Genesis. The evidence is located in the Museums in London England.
The Chaldean Flood Tablets from the city of Ur in what is now Southern Iraq, describe how the Bablylonian God Ea had decided to eliminate humans and other land animals with a great flood which was to become "the end of all flesh". He selected Ut-Napishtim, to build an ark to save a few humans, and samples of other animals.
The Babylonian text "The Epic of Galgamesh" and the Hebrew story are essentially identical with about 20 major points in common. In both cases:
#The Genesis story describes how mankind had become obnoxious to God; they were hopelessly sinful and wicked. In the Babylonian story, they were too numerous and noisy.
#The Gods (or God) decided to send a worldwide flood. This would drown men, women, children, babies and infants, as well as eliminate all of the land animals and birds.
#The Gods (or God) knew of one righteous man, Ut-Napishtim or Noah.
#
The Gods (or God) ordered the hero to build a multi-story wooden ark (called a chest or box in the original Hebrew).
#The hero initially complained about the assignment to build the boat
#
The ark would be sealed with pitch.
#
The ark would have with many internal compartments
#
It would have a single door
#
It would have at least one window.
#The ark was built and loaded with the hero, a few other humans, and samples from all species of other land animals.
#A great rain covered the land with water.
#The mountains were initially covered with water.
#The ark landed on a mountain in the Middle East.
#The hero sent out birds at regular intervals to find if any dry land was in the vicinity.
#The first two birds returned to the ark. The third bird apparently found dry land because it did not return.
#The hero and his family left the ark, ritually killed an animal, offered it as a sacrifice.
#God (or the Gods in the Epic of Gilgamesh) smelled the roasted meat of the sacrifice.
#The hero was blessed.
#The Babylonian gods seemed genuinely sorry for the genocide that they had created. The God of Noah appears to have regretted his actions as well, because he promised never to do it again.
The were a number of differences between the two stories:
#
Noah received his instructions directly from Jehovah; Ut-Napishtim received them indirectly during a dream.
#
Noah's ark was 3 stories high and rectangular in shape. Two estimated dimensions are 547 x 91 ft. and 450 x 75 ft. The Babylonian ark was 6 stories high and square.
#Ut-Napishtim invited additional people on board: a pilot and some skilled workmen.
#Noah's ark landed on Mt. Ararat; Ut-Napishtim'sat on Mt. Nisir; these locations are both in the Middle East, and are located few hundred miles apart
In the Bible, some of the water emerged from beneath the earth. And the rains from above lasted for 40 days and nights. A 40 day interval often symbolized a period of judgment in the Hebrew Scriptures. In the Babylonian account, the water came only in the form of rain, and lasted only 6 days.
#Noah released a raven once and a dove twice; Ut-Napishtim released three birds: a dove, swallow and raven.
The book of Genesis was first written down around 2,700 years ago.
The story of Ut-Napishtim was written down on tablets at least 2 thousand years before Genesis. The evidence is located in the Museums in London England.
harold e. rice
Member
There are two difference stories in Genesis concerning the number of animals Noah was to load on the allege Ark.
Ge 6:19
And of every living thing of all flesh, two of every sort shalt thou bring into the ark, to keep them alive with thee; they shall be male and female.
Ge 7:2
Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.
If he was told to take the animals in two by two as in Ge 6:19 this would have defeated his purpose for saving the animals. Why??? It states that once on dry land Noah sacrificed one of each animal to God destroying one of the mates. Ge 8:20 And Noah builded an altar unto the LORD; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar.
In Ge 7:2 it says that he was to take two of all the unclean animals into the Ark. The unclean animals were not decided upon until Moses came on scene in Leviticus.
Who ever the redactors of Genesis were couldnt merge these two different stories together so they just left them separate and it definitely wasnt Moses. Moses, if he ever lived would have been died around the time the Old Testament was written down.
Ge 6:19
And of every living thing of all flesh, two of every sort shalt thou bring into the ark, to keep them alive with thee; they shall be male and female.
Ge 7:2
Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.
If he was told to take the animals in two by two as in Ge 6:19 this would have defeated his purpose for saving the animals. Why??? It states that once on dry land Noah sacrificed one of each animal to God destroying one of the mates. Ge 8:20 And Noah builded an altar unto the LORD; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar.
In Ge 7:2 it says that he was to take two of all the unclean animals into the Ark. The unclean animals were not decided upon until Moses came on scene in Leviticus.
Who ever the redactors of Genesis were couldnt merge these two different stories together so they just left them separate and it definitely wasnt Moses. Moses, if he ever lived would have been died around the time the Old Testament was written down.
harold e. rice
Member
The words of Ernestine: After the people/languages were scattered at the Tower of Babel, those people carried the legend about the flood with them, each adding/changing a little bit, but all with the same core truth of a flood of proportional magnitude. Noah's ark is not a myth, but the those stories that follow do contain some myth.
There are two different tales about the language of the people before the flood. One states that the people were grouped according to their tongues and the other says that the world had one language.
Ge 10:5 By these were the isles of the Gentiles divided in their lands; every one after his tongue, after their families, in their nations.
Ge 10:20
These are the sons of Ham, after their families, after their tongues, in their countries, and in their nations.
Ge 10:31
These are the sons of Shem, after their families, after their tongues, in their lands, after their nations.
Ge 10:32
These are the families of the sons of Noah, after their generations, in their nations: and by these were the nations divided in the earth after the flood.
Vs.
Ge 11:1 And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech.
The towel of Babel was also copied from the Sumerians in the land of Sumer which is the accepted birthplace of civilization. The Sumerians built many Ziggurats (Towels) thousands of years before the Hebrews scribes put their stories on paper. So of these towels were as tall as 300 feet and if God was mad then, why is he not mad today.
We have many building that are over 900 feet tall.
The airplanes fly thousands of feet above the earth.
There are hundreds of satellites in the sky.
The Hubbell Telescope is in the sky.
There is a space station in the sky.
The astronauts have gone to the moon and circled the earth in their shuttles.
Why has God not gotten angry and destroyed the entire earth a second time?
There are two different tales about the language of the people before the flood. One states that the people were grouped according to their tongues and the other says that the world had one language.
Ge 10:5 By these were the isles of the Gentiles divided in their lands; every one after his tongue, after their families, in their nations.
Ge 10:20
These are the sons of Ham, after their families, after their tongues, in their countries, and in their nations.
Ge 10:31
These are the sons of Shem, after their families, after their tongues, in their lands, after their nations.
Ge 10:32
These are the families of the sons of Noah, after their generations, in their nations: and by these were the nations divided in the earth after the flood.
Vs.
Ge 11:1 And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech.
The towel of Babel was also copied from the Sumerians in the land of Sumer which is the accepted birthplace of civilization. The Sumerians built many Ziggurats (Towels) thousands of years before the Hebrews scribes put their stories on paper. So of these towels were as tall as 300 feet and if God was mad then, why is he not mad today.
We have many building that are over 900 feet tall.
The airplanes fly thousands of feet above the earth.
There are hundreds of satellites in the sky.
The Hubbell Telescope is in the sky.
There is a space station in the sky.
The astronauts have gone to the moon and circled the earth in their shuttles.
Why has God not gotten angry and destroyed the entire earth a second time?
Linus
Well-Known Member
The truth of Noah, is just that...truth. Genesis wasn't written until many years after the events therein actually happened. Truth is truth, no matter when or where you find it or what it is.
What, I think, harold is trying to say is that things happened in a certain order:
1. The actual, Biblical account of the flood occurs
2. Myths and different stories about the flood (how it happened, who was involved, etc.) develop over time
3.The Gilgamesh Epic (and other tellings of the flood) is recorded
4. Some time after, God reveals the true Genesis account to Moses.
5. Moses writes it down.
I hope that clarifies a little
What, I think, harold is trying to say is that things happened in a certain order:
1. The actual, Biblical account of the flood occurs
2. Myths and different stories about the flood (how it happened, who was involved, etc.) develop over time
3.The Gilgamesh Epic (and other tellings of the flood) is recorded
4. Some time after, God reveals the true Genesis account to Moses.
5. Moses writes it down.
I hope that clarifies a little
When was this flood, Linus?Linus said:
Finnyhaha
Member
I know this topic is long since dead, but I have a few things I want to say. First off, for someone claiming to know a lot about the Bible, this
Secondly... nah, thats about it. I don't feel like getting into it.
Is not a very smart thing to say. Anyone who has read the Torah/Old Testament/Whatever-you-want-to-call-it would realize that the "cat" is an unclean animal, seeing as it neither chews the cud nor has split hooves, and thus would not have been taken onto the ark in sets of 7.
Secondly... nah, thats about it. I don't feel like getting into it.
Danilo T. Aungon
New Member
Moses grew up as prince of Egypt, hegot kind of education a royal prince needed to govern the people. So, upon returning to promise land Moses educate the Israelite based on what he learned from Egypt. He narrated a story pattern to other stories he read before. He wrote Genesis, Exodus, Numbers Deutronomy. He ruled all Esraelite Tribes by laws and promulgations