Jollybear
Hey
So kings having there names on stone is evidence no aliens or gods or spirits or angels or whatever name you wish to use, appeared to the egyptians?
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Great pyramids of egypt
- Thread starter Jollybear
- Start date
So kings having there names on stone is evidence no aliens or gods or spirits or angels or whatever name you wish to use, appeared to the egyptians?
Prometheus85
Active Member
Are u going to provide an explanation on why you suggest it’s a good possibility aliens played a role in building the pyramids or nah?
Jollybear
Hey
Actually, no, im not because i dont care if aliens built it, i do care whether or not aliens or gods appeared to the egyptians.
(And Pharaoh said: O chiefs no God do I know for you but myself. Then O Haman ignite for me upon the clay and make a lofty edifice for me. I may be able to mount up to the God of Moses, and I deeply think he is a liar) 28:39 Noble Quran
The world can not figure out how these pyramids were built? How the Pharaohs managed to mobilize these heavy rocks into high towers. But Quran point out in the above verse on the tongue of Pharaoh who instructed the foreman Haman to burn moulds of clay in certain way,where upon the clay changes to hard rocks. The name Haman was not reported in any scripture except Quran and was found as well! Etched in Hieroglyph, the language of ancient Egyptians.
The world can not figure out how these pyramids were built? How the Pharaohs managed to mobilize these heavy rocks into high towers. But Quran point out in the above verse on the tongue of Pharaoh who instructed the foreman Haman to burn moulds of clay in certain way,where upon the clay changes to hard rocks. The name Haman was not reported in any scripture except Quran and was found as well! Etched in Hieroglyph, the language of ancient Egyptians.
gnostic
The Lost One
To answer your 1st and 2nd questions, as brief as possible, the answers are -
- “yes”, it has religious purpose,
- “yes” to it has political purpose,
- and “yes” to having a technological purpose.
The pyramids were built for kings, so of course, it is political, but probably not the way you think.
The pyramid is not the court or throne room or palace, it is not where the king issue their rules/laws or commands. It is not where they do day-to-day business.
It is, of course, a tomb, not the palace. It is political, in the sense, like the palace, as a visual symbol of their wealth and power.
Where as the palace is symbol of the king’s power in life, the pyramid is a symbol of the king’s power in death.
Technologically, the pyramid is basically a tomb, and that of the pyramid of Khufu - which we called the Great Pyramid of Giza - is the greatest engineering feat of the 3rd millennium BCE Bronze Age.
The Great Pyramid is the greatest in term in size, BUT not the earliest built. Khufu was the second ruler of the 4th dynasty (reign 2589 - 2566 BCE), but the oldest pyramid is the tomb of Djoser of the 3rd dynasty (reign c 2686 - 2667 or 2658 BCE).
Djoser’s tomb in Saqqara necropolis, is popularly known today as the Step Pyramid, was said to be designed and built by the famous architect, Imhotep.
Several other rulers had their own pyramids before Khufu, as did his father, Sneferu (reign 2613 - 2589 BCE), the founder of the 4th dynasty. These earlier pyramids showed improvements made since Djoser in Saqqara and before Khufu started constructing his own at Giza, demonstrating progress.
As to the religious aspect to the Old Kingdom dynasties (3rd, 4th, 5th & 6th), you would have to understand the myth as to why these pyramids were constructed.
Before the Osiris cult (including Isis and Horus, as the Holy Trinity) became predominant religion relating to the afterlife and resurrection from the Middle Kingdom to the Hellenistic Ptolemaic dynasty, the cult of Re (Ra) and Horus was especially associated with the pyramids of the Old Kingdom, and the Ra cult rose to prominent in I͗wnw (later Heliopolis, or known in Bible Genesis as On) with the reign of Djoser.
The only information about the myths of Re (or Ra) and Horus in the Old Kingdom period come from hieroglyphs on the walls of the pyramids of the 5th dynasty ruler (Unas) and 6th dynasty kings (Teti, Pepin I, and Pepin II), known collectively today as the Pyramid Texts.
The Pyramid Texts (PT) is sort of like Middle Kingdom Coffin Text (CT) and the New Kingdom (and Late Kingdom) Book Of The Dead (BotD), containing myths and spells to resurrect the dead, except the PT are only reserved for resurrection of kings.
In the PT, the pyramid is a symbol of the first mound that rose out of the primordial water, known as Nun, created by Ra, hence the first land was where I͗wnw (Heliopolis) was located, the city of the sun god (Re, Atum, Horus).
The pyramid wasn’t just a representation of the first mound, but also the ladder, which the sky god Horus climb to ascend to the heaven.
As each ruler was given a Horus name (such names exist since the Predynastic period, for rulers of the Upper Egypt and rulers of the Lower Egypt), because a king was supposedly the living incarnation of Horus, the falcon-headed god the sky.
So when the king died, and entombed in his pyramid, the pyramid served as the ladder or stairway for the king to ascend, and become a crewman of Re’s Solar Barque (a boat) that Re sailed across the sky.
The Solar Barque is like the sun itself, in which Re give sunlight to Egypt each new day.
At night, the boat go into the Netherworld, where Re and his companions fight off monsters and demons, including Apep (Apophis), whom Re beheaded each new night.
The deceased kings who managed to resurrect and join Re's crew, would assist in the nightly battle.
Sources:
Faulkner, R. O., The Ancient Egyptian Pyramid Texts, Oxford University Press, 1969
Budge, E. A. Wallis, Legends Of The Gods: The Egyptian Texts, Hieroglyphic Texts and Translations, Dover (rev. 1994)
There is another religious purpose for building the pyramid.Budge, E. A. Wallis, Legends Of The Gods: The Egyptian Texts, Hieroglyphic Texts and Translations, Dover (rev. 1994)
- The Legend of the Creation (the actual title to the papyrus is the "Book of overthrowing Apep, the Enemy of Ra, the Enemy of Un-Nefer"). This contained the myth of creation of the primeval mound and the first humans. About Re’ boat and the war against Apep (Apophis) is omitted in this translation, but can be found in Budge’s book (see below)
- Book of overthrowing Apep, the Enemy of Ra
As you know, when the king died, his body mummified and kept in the sarcophagus in one of the chambers. In another chamber, should be a life-size image of the pharaoh, like a statue, or even figurine, (known as "ka statue") where the soul, known as ka, reside in, while the pharaoh's spirit, called ankh, joined Re in his Solar Barque. The ka statue is kept in a separate chamber, called serdab.
As long as the ka statue remain intact, and undamaged, the king's spirit will live forever. Destroy the ka statue, you would destroy his ka (soul), therefore destroying the spirit (ankh).
gnostic
The Lost One
Before Sneferu, Khufu's father and founder of the 4th dynasty, built his Red Pyramid in Dahshur, all previous pyramids were step-pyramids, like the 1st pyramid built by Djoser (founder of the 3rd dynasty), not true pyramid in shape.
The Red Pyramid was the 1st true pyramid shaped tomb, as are those in Giza (Khufu, Khafre and Menkaure).
Before Djoser and Imhotep had the Step Pyramid built, rulers of earlier dynasties, built mastaba-type tomb. A mastaba look like this:
This particular mastaba, was built in Saqqara in the 4th dynasty, the same dynasty as that of Khufu, but it was lot more common in the earlier dynasties (eg 1st & 2nd dynasties), and even earlier, during the late pre-dynastic period (3500 - 3100 BCE).
Now imagine, in the 3rd dynasty. Imhotep changed tomb-building by stacking 5 mastaba, one on top of the other, with each newer mastaba smaller than the one below, you get a step-type pyramid, like that of Djoser's Step Pyramid shown below:
It is simply technological progress to go from mastaba to step pyramid, and from step pyramid to true pyramid.
There are no aliens, angels or fairies involved in pyramid-building. I think it is nuts or delusional to think something other than human builders building the pyramids with some human ingenuity.
The Red Pyramid was the 1st true pyramid shaped tomb, as are those in Giza (Khufu, Khafre and Menkaure).
Before Djoser and Imhotep had the Step Pyramid built, rulers of earlier dynasties, built mastaba-type tomb. A mastaba look like this:
This particular mastaba, was built in Saqqara in the 4th dynasty, the same dynasty as that of Khufu, but it was lot more common in the earlier dynasties (eg 1st & 2nd dynasties), and even earlier, during the late pre-dynastic period (3500 - 3100 BCE).
Now imagine, in the 3rd dynasty. Imhotep changed tomb-building by stacking 5 mastaba, one on top of the other, with each newer mastaba smaller than the one below, you get a step-type pyramid, like that of Djoser's Step Pyramid shown below:
It is simply technological progress to go from mastaba to step pyramid, and from step pyramid to true pyramid.
There are no aliens, angels or fairies involved in pyramid-building. I think it is nuts or delusional to think something other than human builders building the pyramids with some human ingenuity.
I believe the first pyramid, or its core was for storaging grain as Joseph advised. Joseph was probably known as Imhotep in Egypt.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyramid_of_Djoser
Jews wanted to carry their death ancestor to their home land and that is why they probably embalm their dead people and prepared them for journey. And the bodies were probably kept in pyramid(s) so that they would remain in good conditions (dry). And later it became habit also for Egyptians. And pyramids got new purposes.
gnostic
The Lost One
Sorry, 1213, but you are merely guessing about Joseph.
Djoser and Imhotep are not contemporaries to Joseph, that if Joseph and Jacob even existed. (Jacob and Joseph are mythological figures, while Djoser and Imhotep are historical figures.)
But if we were to assume that the Bible is true (which is certainly not), it still doesn't make Djoser and Joseph contemporaries. There is a gap of at least 1000 years between Joseph and Djoser.
Here is my maths of the timeline, starting with King Solomon.
According to 1 Kings 6:1, there is 480 years between Moses' leading Israelites out of Egypt (c 1447 BCE) and the 4th year of Solomon's reign (c 970 - c 930 BCE) when the king began building his Temple (c 967 BCE).
And according to Exodus 12:40-41, there is 430 years between Exodus 12. What that mean the lives of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and Joseph would have live within the 430 years time, from when Moses began leading the Israelites out of Egypt.
The 430 years (from Exodus 12:40-41) would put in 1877 BCE, the time Abraham left Haran at age 75 (Genesis 12:4). And there is 215 years between Abraham leaving Haran and Jacob and his family arriving in Egypt. This mean Jacob arrived in Egypt about 1662 BCE.
Jacob in Egypt in 1662 BCE, would mean that Djoser predated Joseph in Egypt by about 1000 years. Note Djoser's reign in Egypt was c 2686 - 2667 or 2658 BCE.
So in short, Djoser and Joseph are not contemporaries. Do the math yourself, work out the timeline of Genesis, Exodus 12:40-41 and 1 Kings 6:1.
Sorry, it is possible that your math is wrong. And because there are lot of similarities that fit to Joseph, I think reason wins this round and your math loses.
I disagree with your assessment. And it would seem people measure and experience "reason" differently. For example, to me your post is unreasonable, and analogous to you going "na na na i'm not listening, you lose."
It is possible his math is wrong: But if you're not actually going to bother explaining to us how, it would make your comment seem like guessing at best, and wishful thinking at the least.
Twilight Hue
Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
There are monuments to a person's massive ego and pride.
Well it's a subject of mystery and Intrigue I would say realistically the pyramids were built upon on Blood Sweat and Tears and lives of other people.
gnostic
The Lost One
Then please, show me your maths on the timeline. It shouldn't be so hard.
gnostic
The Lost One
In the Old Kingdom period (c 2686 - 2181 BCE, dynasties 3, 4, 5 and 6), the Heliopolitian cult of sun god, who go by the name Re (Ra), Atum and Khepri.
We don't have a perfect understanding of their religions, because some would view these 3 names of 3 different sun gods, but others say that it is just one god with 3 different names or 3 different aspects.
For instance, as one sun god, he is the beetle-head Khepri as the morning sun, as Re at noon, and as Atum, the evening sun before sunset.
I have already listed my sources in my first reply to you. And I have already told you the myths about Re's creation and accepting kings as crewmen in his solar boat (or Solar Barque). The boat is used to traverse the sky, as the sun. At night, he travelled in the Netherworld (or the world of the dead), he and his battle and slay monsters and demons, including Apep or Apophis, the serpent or snake demon.
During this Old Kingdom period, only the kings are allowed to be resurrected and join Re in his boat.
After the Old Kingdom, the afterlife shifted away from Re, to Osiris, the Lord of the Netherworld, who act as judge.
Unlike Re's old religion, Osiris cult was opened to all people, including merchants, farmers and fishermen.
There are some images of Osiris, judging the dead, with his sisters (Isis and Nephthys) by his side, Anubis weighing the soul (ba) on the scale against the feather of Ma'at, and the scribe-god Thoth recording if the ba weigh more than the feather of Ma'at (guilty of sins), or if ba lighter than the feather (innocent) or if the scale is balanced (innocent).
A innocent outcome ensure the deceased are resurrected and enter the Field of Reeds, a heaven-like paradise. But if the ba (soul) is guilty, the soul get eaten by Ammit ("The Devourer", the part crocodile, part lion and part hippo creature), and the person's spirit is sent to Tuat or Duat, the Egyptian version of hell or Tartarus.
Below is the image of such Judgement:
Unfortunately, I have nothing to prove any timelines. It is not possible to show when Biblical things happened, or when Djoser existed, or that he even existed really.
You said:
“Note Djoser's reign in Egypt was c 2686 - 2667 or 2658 BCE.”
And that is one part of the math that is difficult. It is possible that those years are wrong. It is really difficult to really know when those things happened and if Joseph fits to the description of Djoser well, I believe he was probably same person and the years are wrong. I think fitting description is stronger evidence than the years that are given without good evidence.
Milton Platt
Well-Known Member
We do know that they were tombs, and that they were built both to immortalize and show reverence to Pharaohs. I base these statements on the work that has been done by archaeologists over the last couple of centuries. There are lots of unanswered questions because of the lack of records, but that knowledge is expanded every year.
gnostic
The Lost One
You are making things, when you connect Joseph to Djoser and his pyramid.
Seriously you don't understand how modern historians and archaeologists work to verify what is history and what isn't history.
I don't you have a concept of what consist of archaeological evidence is.
And lastly, you don't even understand your own bible's timeline.
Like, I said at the start of my reply, you are making false claim about Joseph, when you provide no evidences, nor even logic, to back up your claim.
When I ask you to provide me some maths to your claim, you dismiss it, by waving my reasonable request, of simply backing up your own assertion, which was when you wrote this:
The pyramids are not used as storehouse for grains in case of droughts and famines.
They are tombs for their kings (and sometimes for queens, like the 3 satellite pyramids next to the pyramid of Menkaure at Giza), especially in the Old Kingdom period (c 2686 - 2181 BCE, which composed of 4 dynasties - 3rd, 4th, 5th & 6th).
Usually in that period, when the Egyptians built a pyramid for their king, they often build a mortuary temple nearby. Sometimes you would find inscription that named whose pyramid it was built for, either in the pyramid itself, or in the mortuary temple, or both, or it is inscribed on stone stele.
Sometimes, the pyramid the king's sarcophagus will still exist, but sometimes they are taken or destroyed by grave looters. If the sarcophagus is still found in the pyramid, then clearly that evidence it is not a storehouse. And sometimes the ka statues remain in the ka chamber, or serdab.
And have YOU EVER visit and being inside any of these pyramids before, 1213?
They have VERY FEW chambers and very narrow corridors. If it was grain storehouse, 1213, it would not store much grain, especially if Genesis story about Joseph and 7 years of famine are true, the Step Pyramid of Djoser, could not possibly feed whole population of Egyptians, nor Jacob's family.
In the 3rd, 4th and much of 5th dynasties, there were very little hieroglyphs in the pyramids, but starting with Unas the last king of the 5th dynasty, and in the 5th dynasty with pyramids of Teti, Pepi I and Pepi II, their chambers were filled with hieroglyphs that not only contained some myths, but also numerous spells (eg resurrection spells) that supposed to assist the kings to in the afterlife, and to protect the kings from demons and monsters.
These hieroglyphs on the walls became known today as the Pyramid Texts, and are the forerunners of later texts in the Middle Kingdom period (known as Coffin Texts) and the New Kingdom and later (the Book(s) of the Dead).
If these chambers were served as storehouse of grains, as you have claimed, then why would these pyramids contain spells for resurrection? Did they want to resurrect some grains of wheat?
Your idea that Joseph stored grain in Djoser's is downright absurd.
As I stated, the chambers are too small, to store enough grains to keep people of Egypt from starving for 7 years. The chambers within Djoser's pyramid couldn't store enough food for a couple of months let alone for 7 years.
Plus, the Step Pyramid is located in Saqqara, which contained a number of pyramids in the area. Like Giza and Dahahur, these places are not cities for people, but served as necropolis for the dead.
You do know what a necropolis is, 1213, don't you?
It is pretty much like cemetery, except they were located near Egypt's capital at that time, Memphis. During the Middle Kingdom period, the capital was moved to Thebes, and during the New Kingdom, the tombs of pharaohs were located near Thebes, known as the Valley of the Kings, a new necropolis.
You shouldn't make absurd claims, 1213, that you cannot backup. It is only make you look ignorant, or worse, dishonest.
Actually, I don’t have to make things in this. But you are correct, I have not given much information. I don’t believe any information would change your mind, that is why it is kind of pointless, but if you are interested, I recommend you to read The Exodus case by Dr. Lennart Möller. I think he has collected nicely the evidence. Also, if I would copy it to here, it would take too much space.
If you are not able to get the book, some words for search could be The Joseph stone, interesting connection to Bible story. But there is lots of other similarities also. The book tells also nicely about the interesting details of the Saqqara pyramid, which makes me think the Joseph story is true. But you don’t have to believe me. It is nice if you really study the subject before making judgment.
I agree, they have been used later as tombs. I just think the first pyramid was for the grain originally. and then later it may have been used as storage for the dead Jewish people, before carrying them to their homeland. For that reason, Joseph had to embalm people. For Egyptians it looked like some nice ritual and then they copied it and it became habit for them and perhaps religion. And then later the phenomenon became even larger. And interestingly, Joseph made it possible, because of him they could sell grain and become rich and then they could spend it to vain landmarks.
I have different information.
But this may give you some additional information:
http://www.cps.org.rs/Innerpeace/Creation/pyramids.html
gnostic
The Lost One
But the pyramid of Djoser was always a tomb, and it was first built, ever.
As I stated, the chambers are too small to store grains, to feed entire population.
Before the pyramid, the mastabas served as tombs for the rulers of the earlier dynasties, and the pyramid evolved from and based on the mastabas-type tomb, by stacking one mastaba on top of another.
The mastabas even have the same interior designs as the later pyramids.
And Saqqara had even served as necropolis, even before the first dynasty, where even older mastabas existed. By the Second Intermediate Period, the number of pyramid reduced, and the king Kingdom period, they stopped making pyramids for kings, and the necropolis was moved to Valley of the Kings, near Thebes.
As to Jacob and his family migrating to Egypt, they supposedly lived in Goshen, which is the eastern parts of the Nile, which is no where near any of the pyramid necropolis (Saqqara and Dahshur).
You still don’t know what you are talking about.
And as to Dr Lennart Möller, I seriously doubt he ever been inside any pyramid, let alone in Egypt, he is clearly an imbecile, who is neither an archaeologist, nor a historian, and have been heavily criticised for this book you are promoting. Clearly, Möller doesn’t understand that the Egyptians have progress from building mastabas to building pyramids as a natural progress of tomb building.
Möller should stick with medicine, because his The Exodus Case just show little he know about Egyptian cultures.
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Jollybear
Hey
What about this though?
http://etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/section1/tr112.htm
"My son, wake up from your bed! Please apply the skill deriving from your wisdom and create a substitute (?) for the gods so that they can be freed from their toil!"
24-37At the word of his mother Namma, Enki rose up from his bed. In Hal-an-kug, his room for pondering, he slapped his thigh in annoyance. The wise and intelligent one, the prudent, ...... of skills, the fashioner of the design of everything brought to life birth-goddesses (?). Enkireached out his arm over them and turned his attention to them. And after Enki, the fashioner of designs by himself, had pondered the matter, he said to his mother Namma: "My mother, the creature you planned will really come into existence. Impose on him the work of carrying baskets. You should knead clay from the top of the abzu; the birth-goddesses (?) will nip off the clay and you shall bring the form into existence. Let Ninmah act as your assistant; and let Ninimma, Cu-zi-ana, Ninmada, Ninbarag, Ninmug, ...... and Ninguna stand by as you give birth. My mother, after you have decreed his fate, let Ninmah impose on him the work of carrying baskets."
6 lines fragmentary
44-51Enki ...... brought joy to their heart. He set a feast for his mother Namma and for Ninmah. All the princely birth-goddesses (?) ...... ate delicate reed (?) and bread. An, Enlil, and the lord Nudimmud roasted holy kids. All the senior gods praised him: "O lord of wide understanding, who is as wise as you? Enki, the great lord, who can equal your actions? Like a corporeal father, you are the one who has the me of deciding destinies, in fact you are the me."
52-55Enki and Ninmah drank beer, their hearts became elated, and then Ninmahsaid to Enki: "Man's body can be either good or bad and whether I make a fate good or bad depends on my will."
56-61Enki answered Ninmah: "I will counterbalance whatever fate -- good or bad -- you happen to decide." Ninmah took clay from the top of the abzu in her hand and she fashioned from it first a man who could not bend his outstretched weak hands. Enki looked at the man who could not bend his outstretched weak hands, and decreed his fate: he appointed him as a servant of the king.
62-65Second, she fashioned one who turned back (?) the light, a man with constantly opened eyes (?). Enki looked at the one who turned back (?) the light, the man with constantly opened eyes (?), and decreed his fate allotting to it the musical arts, making him as the chief ...... in the king's presence.
66-68Third, she fashioned one with both feet broken, one with paralysed feet. Enkilooked at the one with both feet broken, the one with paralysed feet and ...... him for the work of ...... and the silversmith and ....... ( 1 ms. has instead: She fashioned one, a third one, born as an idiot. Enki looked at this one, the one born as an idiot, and decreed his fate: he appointed him as a servant of the king.)
69-71Fourth, she fashioned one who could not hold back his urine. Enki looked at the one who could not hold back his urine and bathed him in enchanted water and drove out the namtar demon from his body.
72-74Fifth, she fashioned a woman who could not give birth. Enki looked at the woman who could not give birth, and decreed her fate: he made (?) her belong to the queen's household. ( 1 ms. has instead:...... as a weaver, fashioned her to belong to the queen's household.)
75-78Sixth, she fashioned one with neither penis nor vagina on its body. Enki looked at the one with neither penis nor vagina on its body and give it the name "Nibrueunuch (?)", and decreed as its fate to stand before the king.
79-82Ninmah threw the pinched-off clay from her hand on the ground and a great silence fell. The great lord Enki said to Ninmah: "I have decreed the fates of your creatures and given them their daily bread. Come, now I will fashion somebody for you, and you must decree the fate of the newborn one!"
83-91Enki devised a shape with head, ...... and mouth in its middle, and said to Ninmah: "Pour ejaculated semen into a woman's womb, and the woman will give birth to the semen of her womb." Ninmahstood by for the newborn ....... and the woman brought forth ...... in the midst ....... In return (?), this was Umul: its head was afflicted, its place of ...... was afflicted, its eyes were afflicted, its neck was afflicted. It could hardly breathe, its ribs were shaky, its lungs were afflicted, its heart was afflicted, its bowels were afflicted. With its hand and its lolling head it could not not put bread into its mouth; its spine and head were dislocated. The weak hips and the shaky feet could not carry (?) it on the field -- Enki fashioned it in this way.
92-101Enki said to Ninmah: "For your creatures I have decreed a fate, I have given them their daily bread. Now, you should decree a fate for my creature, give him his daily bread too." Ninmah looked at Umul and turned to him. She went nearer to Umul asked him questions but he could not speak. She offered him bread to eat but he could not reach out for it. He could not lie on ......., he could not ....... Standing up he could not sit down, could not lie down, he could not ...... a house, he could not eat bread. Ninmah answered Enki: "The man you have fashioned is neither alive nor dead. He cannot support himself (?)."
102-111Enki answered Ninmah: "I decreed a fate for the first man with the weak hands, I gave him bread. I decreed a fate for the man who turned back (?) the light, I gave him bread. I decreed a fate for the man with broken, paralysed feet, I gave him bread. I decreed a fate for the man who could not hold back his urine, I gave him bread. I decreed a fate for the woman who could not give birth, I gave her bread. I decreed the fate for the one with neither penis nor vagina on its body, I gave it bread. My sister"
The "toil" of the gods looks like they wer building stuff. Then they made man out of clay.