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Featured Gravity and the Expanding Universe

Discussion in 'Evolution Vs. Creationism' started by rrobs, Nov 25, 2020.

  1. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    Make something up, believe really hard, once in power use authority to war on those that disagree with you.
     
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  2. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon shunyadragon
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    What Does the Bible Say About Geocentrism? Besides many references describing the earth is fixed and doe not move. It describes the sun, moon and other heavenly bodies rotating around the earth.

    Psalm 104:5 ESV / 47 helpful votes
    He set the earth on its foundations, so that it should never be moved.

    Psalm 93:1 ESV / 38 helpful votes
    The Lord reigns; he is robed in majesty; the Lord is robed; he has put on strength as his belt. Yes, the world is established; it shall never be moved.

    Ecclesiastes 1:5 ESV / 24 helpful votes
    The sun rises, and the sun goes down, and hastens to the place where it rises.

    Psalm 96:10 ESV / 24 helpful votes
    Say among the nations, “The Lord reigns! Yes, the world is established; it shall never be moved; he will judge the peoples with equity.”

    1 Chronicles 16:30 ESV / 23 helpful votes
    Tremble before him, all the earth; yes, the world is established; it shall never be moved.

    Genesis 1:1-31 ESV / 17 helpful votes
    In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters. And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. And God saw that the light was good. And God separated the light from the darkness. God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, the first day. ...

    Job 26:7 ESV / 16 helpful votes
    He stretches out the north over the void and hangs the earth on nothing.

    Joshua 10:12 ESV / 15 helpful votes
    At that time Joshua spoke to the Lord in the day when the Lord gave the Amorites over to the sons of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel, “Sun, stand still at Gibeon, and moon, in the Valley of Aijalon.”

    Psalm 19:4-6 ESV / 14 helpful votes
    Their voice goes out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them he has set a tent for the sun, which comes out like a bridegroom leaving his chamber, and, like a strong man, runs its course with joy. Its rising is from the end of the heavens, and its circuit to the end of them, and there is nothing hidden from its heat.

    1 Samuel 2:8 ESV / 14 helpful votes
    He raises up the poor from the dust; he lifts the needy from the ash heap to make them sit with princes and inherit a seat of honor. For the pillars of the earth are the Lord's, and on them he has set the world.

    Job 9:7 ESV / 13 helpful votes
    Who commands the sun, and it does not rise; who seals up the stars;

    Habakkuk 3:11 ESV / 11 helpful votes
    The sun and moon stood still in their place at the light of your arrows as they sped, at the flash of your glittering spear.

    Isaiah 40:22 ESV / 11 helpful votes
    It is he who sits above the circle of the earth, and its inhabitants are like grasshoppers; who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, and spreads them like a tent to dwell in;

    More to follow , , ,
     
    #382 shunyadragon, Nov 29, 2020
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2020
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  3. Polymath257

    Polymath257 Think & Care
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    But the Earth *doesn't* hang. It moves in an orbit. The idea that is was 'hanging' was derived from the Greek ideas and they were NOT correct.

    Not correct. it doesn't hang at all. And they were using the ideas developed by the Greeks (and brought in by Alexander the Great).

    Nope. The Isaiah quote describes the *sky* being stretched out like a tent. That is an old idea that says the sky is a 'firmament' stretched out above the flat Earth on which the stars are placed.

    This smacks of reinterpreting texts to fit the modern discoveries of science as opposed to actually reading the texts and interpreting them in the context of the times in which they were written. The earlier texts viewed the Earth as flat with a 'firmament' sky above it, pillars underneath, and surrounded by water. The later texts, which were written after the introduction of Greek ideas, had a spherical Earth hanging in nothingness.

    Neither picture is accurate, though.
     
  4. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Yes, the Earth abides forever - Ecclesiastes 1:4 B - remains forever - Psalms 104:5
    That does Not make the Earth the center of of the Universe.
    What won't remain are the wicked - Psalms 104:35; Psalms 92:7
    Even Abraham, without a telescope, could look up and see a google plex of stars knowing Earth was Not the center - Genesis 22:17
     
  5. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Ancients taught Earth was supported by elephants, etc. whereas the Bible is clear that nothing ( elephants, etc. ) holds up the Earth.
    There is Nothing tangible resting under Earth to support it., thus Earth hangs upon nothing ( holding it up such as elephants,etc. )
     
  6. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon shunyadragon
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    The highlighted was specific as well as many descriptive citations that describe the earth as the center and the sun and moon go around the earth as here . . .

    2 Pet 1:19 “We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:”

    Geocentric: the day star does the rising.

    You cannot explain away this:

    Ecclesiastes 1:5 ESV / 24 helpful votes
    The sun rises, and the sun goes down, and hastens to the place where it rises.
     
  7. Polymath257

    Polymath257 Think & Care
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    Actually, the Bible has the Earth held up by pillars in the early writings. The Job quote is from much later, well after it was understood that the Earth is spherical.

    No, it does NOT hang. It moves. You wouldn't say that a ball in the air is hanging after being thrown.
     
  8. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon shunyadragon
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    Genesis 22:17 does not support your assertion. It simply refers to the vast number of stars that circled the earth,
     
  9. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Be your own guru

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    Evidence of apostasy in Islam, according to Reliance of the Traveller, a 14th-century manual of the Shafi'i school of jurisprudence (Fiqh), includes:

    (b) intention to commit unbelief, even if one hesitates to do so;
    (c) speak words that imply unbelief such as "Allah is the third of three" or "I am Allah";
    (d) revile, question, wonder, doubt, mock or deny the existence of God or Prophet of Islam or that the Prophet was sent by God;
    (e) revile, deny, or mock any verse of the Quran, or the religion of Islam;
    (f) to deny the obligatory character of something considered obligatory by Ijma (consensus of Muslims);
    (g) believe that things in themselves or by their nature have cause independent of the will of God;

    But is it any use to discuss things with you?
    Apostasy in Islam - Wikipedia
    The first quote is from RigVeda, the second from BhagawadGita.
     
  10. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
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    Not sure which version of the bible you use but the link you provided goes to

    Lift up your eyes on high, and behold who hath created these things, that bringeth out their host by number: he calleth them all by names by the greatness of his might, for that he is strong in power; not one faileth.

    Nothing about energy or mass
    I also guess that energy was not understood when the bible was written
     
  11. ecco

    ecco Veteran Member

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    This regards science only insofar as logic is part of science. If you do not understand basic logic, then I cannot explain anything to you.

    All three "gods" cannot be the ONE TRUE GOD. What is so complicated?





    Not right no matter how much you ask "right please". Asking "right please" does not make things right.

    Science dismisses all things supernatural - that includes all gods.
     
  12. ecco

    ecco Veteran Member

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    I read that post. He is entitled to his opinion.





    ETA I just read his explanation. It seems we are mostly in agreement.
     
    #392 ecco, Nov 30, 2020
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2020
  13. ecco

    ecco Veteran Member

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    Science, specifically logic, can be used to provide evidence to show that Shiva, Allah, and the Judeo/Christian God, as described by their adherents, cannot all be the one true god.

    Science, specifically geology, can prove that the entire earth was not flooded during the existence of homo sapiens.
     
  14. ecco

    ecco Veteran Member

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    Any writing that claims the moon is a source of light is based on ignorance.

    Any writing that claims venus is a star is based on ignorance.
     
  15. Regiomontanus

    Regiomontanus retired astronomer

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    Sure our ancestors were wrong about those things, though we have to be fair. I mean, how would you have interpreted those things?

    By the way, I bet most people back then were more in tune with the rhythms of nature, patterns in night sky, etc., than most people in the west today are.
     
  16. gnostic

    gnostic The Lost One

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    But the Bible still describe the sun being in motion, not the earth, because the authors believe that sun rise from the eastern horizon, move across the sky before setting in the western horizon.

    In Genesis 1, the 4th day of creation, god created the sun, moon and stars...

    ...there are so many things wrong with this depiction.

    For one, the “dome” (NRSV translation), “expanse” (NASB), “vault” (NIV) or firmament (KJV) was created on the 2nd day, which is supposedly is the “sky”:

    But the reality is that the sun, moon and stars are not located within the limitations of this dome/vault/expanse/firmament. This same dome or vault is where birds created on the 5th day can fly:

    Birds and sun in the same dome?

    How is that in any way possible?

    Genesis 1:20 also say that the lights mark the day (between light and darkness, between day and night), but also marked the year, and the seasons.

    But the reality is that days, seasons and years, are controlled by the motion of the sun (eg motion of the sun according to the observer’s view of the sky), but on the Earth’s own motions, such as the rotation of the Earth on its axis that tilt about, and on the orbit of the Earth around the Sun, and its distances to the sun (radius) that are based on elliptical orbit.

    Since the orbit is elliptical, the radius varied, with the longest radius being aphelion, the shortest being perihelion. The difference between aphelion and perihelion is about 5 million km.

    The authors of the OT & NT wouldn’t know all this, because the Hebrew and Christian authors still believed in the Babylonian astronomy that based on the geocentric motion (the sun moving across the sky, while the Earth remained stationary and fixed.)

    And like Polymath257 said, the Earth is the one in motion, eg rotating on its axis and orbiting around the Sun; the Earth don’t just hang there, as you cited in Job 26:7, stationary and in fixed position.

    That’s not just inaccurate, it is wrong.

    And in Joshua 10, during the battle against the Amorites, God stopped the sun and moon, long enough for the Israelite army to completely defeat the Amorites. After that (after their victory) the sun continue it course through the sky.

    That’s another indication that the authors of Joshua believed in geocentric motion of the sun across the sky, instead of Earth orbiting around the Sun (heliocentric motion).

    All of the biblical claims about the Earth and Sun are wrong (eg in Genesis, Joshua, Job, Psalms, etc), based on outdated geocentric model that began with Bronze Age Babylonian astronomy (as well as repeated in the Egyptian astronomy).

    As I stated in earlier post of mine, heliocentric model was first proposed by Hellenistic astronomer, Aristarchus of Samos, who not only described a spherical Earth, but also about the Earth orbiting the Sun - the heliocentric model.

    But the heliocentric model was unpopular for 1-and-a-half thousand of years, before it had being revived by Nicolaus Copernicus (mid-16th century), discovered by Galileo, revised the planetary orbits being elliptical by Johannes Kepler (Copernicus’ orbits were circular), and the forces governing the orbital motion identified as gravity by Isaac Newton.
     
  17. Cooky

    Cooky Veteran Member

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    That's an interesting concept. I appreciate that.
     
  18. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon shunyadragon
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    That is well understood by most, except fundamentalist believers who still cling to a degree of believing in a literal interpretation of the Bible particularly the Pentateuch. Polls over the years have consistently indicated that between 40% and 50%+ of the Christians in the USA believe in some version of a literal Bible, reject a natural evolution, climate change, and many do not believe in the COVID-19 pandemic.
     
  19. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    I appreciate what you mentioned ^ above ^ as it helps keep me on my toes, so to speak.

    To me it takes great ' energy ' in order to have greatness in 'might ' (strength) and strong in 'power'.
    So, God provided and supplied the needed ' might ' and ' power ' to create the things mentioned.
    I generally use the King James version (Not the newest KJV) just as to establish common ground.
    I see in the Hebrew Bible at Isaiah 40:26 it says : abundance of His ' power ' and vigor of His ' strength '. ( both are energy )
    So, when God sends forth His spirit things are created - Psalms 104:30 - Hebrew uses the word His ' breath ' which harmonizes with Psalms 33:6.
    Thus, God's 'spirit and breath' go hand in hand with God's great power and mighty strength.
    It took abundant dynamic energy to create the visible material realm, or in other words, abundant dynamic great power and mighty strength.
    True the word energy is Not used, but certainly to me energy is a synonym word we can use to convey such power and might.
    To me this harmonizes with Isaiah 45:18.
    Would you say that matter and energy is the source of the same thing ______________
     
  20. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    I find the moon is a source of ' reflected sun's light ' .
    Please notice at Genesis 1:16-18 because the moon's light was 'made' to do something.
    The sun would rule by day, and the stars and moon by night.
    Kind of like an adult might have a child be ' made ' to do something, like made to sit in a chair.
     
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