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Graner gets 10 years

Watcher

The Gunslinger
To bad he didn't get more......

ABU GHRAIB SCANDAL

Ringleader in Iraqi Prisoner Abuse Is Sentenced to 10 Years

[size=-1]By KATE ZERNIKE [/size]
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Published: January 16, 2005



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ORT HOOD, Tex., Jan. 15 - The Army reservist found guilty of being the ringleader of the abuse at Abu Ghraib prison was sentenced Saturday afternoon to 10 years in military prison, after telling the jury that he had repeatedly complained about orders to treat detainees harshly but that he had been told to go along - and was praised when he did.

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The reservist, Specialist Charles A. Graner Jr., faced a maximum sentence of 15 years. The jury deliberated for two hours before delivering the sentence, which also reduced his rank to private, the lowest possible, and ordered him dishonorably discharged from the military.

Specialist Graner's case was the first contested court-martial in the abuse scandal that set off international outrage against the American military and led to nine high-level Pentagon investigations into reports of abuse at American detention centers in Iraq, in Afghanistan, and at Guantánamo Bay, Cuba.

"I didn't enjoy anything I did there," Specialist Graner told the jury at the end of three hours of answering questions from his lawyer Saturday morning. "A lot of it was wrong, a lot of it was criminal."

His comments were his first about what happened at the prison and the photographs that became symbols of the abuse scandal - detainees bound and cowering, or naked, hooded and forced into sexually humiliating poses.

"I can see, to a layperson, a lot of things happen in prison that may look wrong," Specialist Graner said as his lawyer displayed the photos on a screen. "A lot of things happen in prison that are wrong. But you can have a use of force that looks bad that can be justified."

Specialist Graner, a 36-year-old former prison guard from Western Pennsylvania, spoke to the jury the morning after it found him guilty on charges of assault, maltreatment, conspiracy, indecent acts and dereliction of duty.

He declined to take an oath that would have allowed him to be questioned by the prosecution and the jury.

The explanations he gave for the photographs and the upbeat e-mail messages he sent home about them were starkly different from the picture prosecutors painted of someone who abused detainees, as one prosecutor said, "for laughs, for sport."

Specialist Graner swiveled his chair nervously, occasionally smiling, laughing and gesturing as he explained his actions. He did not deny that the abuse occurred.

Demonstrating how he hit a detainee, he smacked his fist into his hand so loudly that it jolted the small courtroom. But he insisted that he and other military police soldiers were treating detainees harshly at the behest of military intelligence officers who were eager to get better information from them.

When he complained to a superior, he said, "his advice to me was that if M.I. is asking you to do this, it needs to be done. They're in charge, follow their orders."

The broad smiles and thumbs up he gave as he posed behind piles of bound detainees, he said, came from a kind of gallows humor.

"There was a lot of things that we did that were so screwed up that if you didn't look at them as they were funny, you couldn't deal with them," he said.

Asked to explain a photograph of himself stitching up the face of a detainee he admitted hitting, he said he punched the man after telling him three times in Arabic to stay quiet.

"I told you once, I told you twice, if I had to tell you a third time, you got a slap in the head," Specialist Graner said.

But Specialist Graner insisted that he was not the sadist the prosecutors described. He went into Abu Ghraib, he said, believing that "all we were going to do was feed them, make sure they were alive when I came onto the shift, make sure they were alive when I left the shift."

He contradicted some of what was said in sworn testimony by 23 witnesses earlier in the week. Soldiers said that they were repeatedly told not to take photographs, and that they would have known that orders to hit prisoners or put them in humiliating positions were wrong.

Maj. Michael Holley, the lead prosecutor, urged the jury to deliver the maximum sentence. "The hour for Specialist Graner to be responsible has arrived," he said.

Major Holley asked the jury not to believe Specialist Graner's statements that he had abused detainees to save the lives of American soldiers.

"Do not let him trade on the honor and sacrifice of your brothers," he told the jury of six enlisted soldiers and four officers, all combat veterans.

"If the maximum punishment was ever appropriate for an accused," Major Holley said, "it is this accused."

Specialist Graner's lawyer, Guy Womack, repeated the assertion he made throughout the trial that the military was making his client the fall guy for higher-ranking military intelligence soldiers, several of whom have been implicated but not charged in a Pentagon investigation.

"People have talked about this case as being like a Nuremburg trial," he said, referring to the prosecution of high-ranking Nazis who tried to defend their actions by saying they had followed orders. "There's a difference. In Nuremberg it was generals we were going after. We didn't grab sacrificial E-4s, we were going after the order-givers. Here we're going after the order-takers."

Specialist Graner, who had been free to roam the base here during his trial, left the court building in shackles. Fort Hood officials said he would be transferred to the Bell County Jail until a place for him could be found in a military prison.
 

lousyskater

Member
i understand i was the whole orchestrator of the stuff, but what about the other people that were involved? i haven't seen anything about what's going to happen to them?
 

retrorich

SUPER NOT-A-MOD
Seyorni said:
Scapegoat
The fact that others are also guilty does not lessen his guilt.

I think the whole matter should be thoroughly investigated, and all persons found guilty (up to and including George W. Bush, the U.S. Commander and Chief) should be prosecuted and punished to the full extent of the law.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
"The fact that others are guilty does not lessen his guilt"

I agree, retro. Each of us is individually responsible for our every act. But if a superior has a reasonable expection that an immoral order will be carried out he shares the karma of that order.

I'd like to see the charges extended to all persons responsible.
 

robtex

Veteran Member
lousyskater said:
i understand i was the whole orchestrator of the stuff, but what about the other people that were involved? i haven't seen anything about what's going to happen to them?
L.S., there are 4 others indicted at this time. Graner's trial was the first.
 

Dr. Nosophoros

Active Member
I agree with a few others here, these soldiers are just scapegoats. the higher ups are sacrificing the "little guys" to attempt to satisfy public outrage so it appears they are fixing a "problem".
 

robtex

Veteran Member
Dr. Nosophoros said:
I agree with a few others here, these soldiers are just scapegoats. the higher ups are sacrificing the "little guys" to attempt to satisfy public outrage so it appears they are fixing a "problem".
What are you basing this theory on?
 

Dr. Nosophoros

Active Member
What are you basing this theory on?
More of an educated Guess,

The fact that some of the same types of abuses that are described by Iraqis are similar to the ones described by prior inmates of Guantanomo Bay Cuba, and places in Afghanistan, tells me that if similar tactics are being used in a number of different places where U.S. forces are detaining people, then reasonably, they are working off of the same sheet of music. That is unless we want to believe there is some universal "cosmic conciousness" for torture they are getting these ideas from. "Sub-contractors" have also been in Iraq in security positions, and some of them have been accused of rape and torture- what better way for the government to get away with torture than to hire outside "contractors" and claim it wasn't their fault- it was the "sub-contractors" policies that allowed it to happen. Interestingly enough, many had prior military service.

Rumsfeld (If I remember correctly) was interviewed before the invasion of Iraq and was pushing the idea of the possible use of torture as a legitimate way of getting confessions. I remember distinctly the issue of "putting needles under the fingernails" but there was others. If you have someone at that level of our government speaking openly on national television about the possibility of using torture as a legitimate way of getting confessions, there is no doubt in my mind that it was probably already happening or was planned to have happened.

Adding to that if you look at the recent history of the United States as far as the practice of "rendering" terror suspects to other countries that allow torture to get them to confess to whatever it is they want them to confess to and the fact that in years prior the U.S. supported repressive, torturous governments in Latin America and elsewhere and possibly/probably even trained them in methods of torture, it's not hard to conclude that not only is the United States government willing to turn a blind eye to torture when they feel it might benifit them but have been/are active participants. I feel the dots are there, connecting them is the easy part.

The problem in this case is that someone got caught on film doing it. Since most Americans, and I would guess most civilians in just about any country, frown on torture by government. So we have trials that satisfy the outrage after the discovery and publicity, If it were never publicised- it probably would never have been punished.

I'm not asking you to believe me, in fact I encourage you to research this and draw your own conclusions,
 

retrorich

SUPER NOT-A-MOD
TranceAm said:
With what result?
Do you know Admiral Poindexter, Oliver North? To give a few examples.
A presidential Pardon in a couple of years, and you will see his face on Fox TV as thanks for his "Patriotism" showing how well America is doing in the next war.
That's like saying why investigate or prosecute any criminal because they might be paroled down the road.
 

Faminedynasty

Active Member
Dr. Nosophoros said:
More of an educated Guess,

The fact that some of the same types of abuses that are described by Iraqis are similar to the ones described by prior inmates of Guantanomo Bay Cuba, and places in Afghanistan, tells me that if similar tactics are being used in a number of different places where U.S. forces are detaining people, then reasonably, they are working off of the same sheet of music. That is unless we want to believe there is some universal "cosmic conciousness" for torture they are getting these ideas from. "Sub-contractors" have also been in Iraq in security positions, and some of them have been accused of rape and torture- what better way for the government to get away with torture than to hire outside "contractors" and claim it wasn't their fault- it was the "sub-contractors" policies that allowed it to happen. Interestingly enough, many had prior military service.

Rumsfeld (If I remember correctly) was interviewed before the invasion of Iraq and was pushing the idea of the possible use of torture as a legitimate way of getting confessions. I remember distinctly the issue of "putting needles under the fingernails" but there was others. If you have someone at that level of our government speaking openly on national television about the possibility of using torture as a legitimate way of getting confessions, there is no doubt in my mind that it was probably already happening or was planned to have happened.

Adding to that if you look at the recent history of the United States as far as the practice of "rendering" terror suspects to other countries that allow torture to get them to confess to whatever it is they want them to confess to and the fact that in years prior the U.S. supported repressive, torturous governments in Latin America and elsewhere and possibly/probably even trained them in methods of torture, it's not hard to conclude that not only is the United States government willing to turn a blind eye to torture when they feel it might benifit them but have been/are active participants. I feel the dots are there, connecting them is the easy part.

The problem in this case is that someone got caught on film doing it. Since most Americans, and I would guess most civilians in just about any country, frown on torture by government. So we have trials that satisfy the outrage after the discovery and publicity, If it were never publicised- it probably would never have been punished.

I'm not asking you to believe me, in fact I encourage you to research this and draw your own conclusions,
It’s speculation, but I for one am skeptical that the abuse at Abu Ghraib is just an isolated incident of a few out of control soldiers. Call me paranoid, but I somehow doubt that it is purely coincidental that these horrific abuses came after the administration’s memos justifying torture, and using only the strictest definitions of torture were written. Maybe we’ll know for sure in 40 years. There is no doubt that this soldier deserves every day he’ll do in prison and probably more, but there is much doubt in my mind that all those truly responsible will be brought to justice.

A passage comes to mind:

“For a year Machiavelli was ambassador to Cesare Borgia, conqueror of Rome. He describes one event that is “worthy of note and of imitation by others.” Rome had been disorderly, and Cesare Borgia decided he needed to make the people “Peaceful and obedient to his rule.” Therefore “He appointed Messer Remirro de Orco, a cruel and able man, to whom he gave the fullest authority” and who, in a short time, made Rome “orderly and united.” But Cesare Borgia knew his policies had aroused hatred, so,

“In order to purge the minds of the people and to win them over completely, he resolved to show that if any cruelty had taken place, it was not by his orders, but through the harsh disposition of his minister. And having found the opportunity he had him cut in half and placed one morning in the public square at Cesena with a piece of wood and a blood-stained knife by his side.”

“In recent American history, we have become familiar with the technique of rulers letting subordinates do the dirty work, which they can later disclaim.”

--Howard Zinn, Passionate declarations
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Reminds me of Manuel Noriega of Panama.

The US is a dangerous power to ally yourself with. Try to leave the game and you will be squashed.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Graner is too small of a fish to get his own radio talk show out of this, like Oliver North and G Gordon Liddy did, but what I want to know is will he convert to Christ and start a prison ministry like Chuck Colson?
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The abuses were already common knowledge in high places long before the s**t hit the fan. They'd been reported by concerned persons and even the International Red Cross had lodged a protest.

Nothing happened till the pictures were published.

The administration is not concerned with law, justice or human rights. It's only when some dissident rubs their face in it that they affect any pretense of concern.
 
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