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Grace - License to Sin?

rrobs

Well-Known Member
The devil makes liberal use of shame, guilt, and self condemnation in his relentless effort of spiritually incapacitating every son or daughter of God he can get his hands on. He’s been doing it for 6,000 years, ever since the day he made Adam and Eve aware of their heretofore unnoticed nakedness. There is a good reason he’s relied on our feelings of not measuring up; it works. It works extremely well. He can do that by making the believer think they have to follow law, that grace only goes so far, that it can not be relied upon as the only foundation of our walk with God. It is thought that somehow grace must be tempered by law, that it is sort of a hybrid walk, some grace and some law. Unfortunately that is what far too many Christians have been taught and therefore that is what the believe and endeavor to do.

But, the law is actually the power source, the enabler, of the devil's efforts.

Rom 7:11,

For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew [me].​

Occasion ἀφορμή aphorme (a-for-mee') n.

1. a starting-point.

2. (figuratively) an opportunity.

Without the law sin has no power. The stop sign on the corner provides the impetus for receiving that "failure to stop" ticket. The policeman can hardly accuse you of that if there was no stop sign. Sin is just like that. Where there is no law, there is no sin.

Rom 4:15,

Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, [there is] no transgression.​

In order to make someone worthy to be called His child, God, through the death and resurrection of His only begotten son, simply substituted grace for law. That way none of His children could be condemned like the unrepentant person. Does that mean we won't commit sins? No. No doubt all Christians continue to commit sins, but God simple overlooks them. He doesn't add them to some ledger with which he keeps track of our behavior after we get born again.

Rom 5:13,

For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.​

The word imputed means a ledger entry, just like the financial reports all businesses keep to judge their health. This verse says sin is not entered into the ledger. That stands to reason since there is no ledger God keeps for those who have confessed Jesus as Lord and believe God raised him from the dead (Rom 10:9-10). Such an individual is judged righteous the moment they do that (Rom 4:11) and they will remain so until the end. Christ took the ledger out of the way, enabling us to have perfect fellowship with him and with his father.

1Cor 1:8,

Who (Jesus) shall also confirm you unto the end, [that ye may be] blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.​

What is it that will keep us blameless? Our success in following law? No! Jesus Christ will do that!

Few Christians have a problem with getting saved by grace, but too many think that after getting saved they must follow the law in order to stay in God's favor. That is nothing new. The Galatians thought that very thing some 4,000 years ago.

Gal 3:1-3,

1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?​

Verse 3 is crystal clear. It is a rhetorical question which is of course answered in the negative. No, we are absolutely not made perfect by cajoling our flesh into somehow following the law of commandments. We began our Christian life by grace and we will grow up the same way. That will be true until the Lord returns to gather us up together in the clouds. We are made perfect the same way we got born again, by grace.

Am I saying that we can sin as much as we want since we are under grace? That is an often asked question. The short answer is, sure, if that's what someone wants to do. However, as it turns out, few actually subscribe to that way of walking. I've never met anyone like that, but I suppose they could be out there. The reality is that once a child of God really understands grace, committing sins is the last thing they want to do. Grace is the only way to take the power of sin, i.e. the law, and throw it away as far as the east is from the west. Paul was asked that very question. You can read his answer in Romans, chapter 7.

There is no need to be afraid of grace. Instead you should become afraid the moment you say to yourself something like, "OK. From now on I'm going to stop that sin that bothers me so much. I'll use every ounce of strength that lies within me to do that. I'll make this flesh conform to the righteousness of God if it's the last thing I do!"

You will commit acts of sin, no matter how hard you try. It's better to stop trying and to put your mind on what God has done for you, not on what you can do for God. John Kennedy had it backwards!

Do believe God? Then you should have no trouble moving on after you tell that lie, drink that whiskey, look at that scantly clad young woman, or whatever it is that you do on a somewhat regular basis.

1John 1:9,

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.​

How long does it take to say to God, "I messed up again father. But thank you so much for forgiving me and for cleansing me from the penalty of my actions?" It shouldn't take but a second or two. After that, forget about it and move ahead praising God for His mercy and grace. It sure beats stewing day after day about your inability to stop whatever sin it is that so easily besets you. The more you think of God's grace, the more closely you will walk the walk that Jesus walked. It may be counter intuitive, but isn't that so very typical of God?

Isa 55:9,

For [as] the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.​
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Am I saying that we can sin as much as we want since we are under grace? That is an often asked question. The short answer is, sure, if that's what someone wants to do.
I've got to disagree with you there. If you "want" to sin at all, you're on the wrong track entirely.

You will commit acts of sin, no matter how hard you try. It's better to stop trying and to put your mind on what God has done for you, not on what you can do for God.
I don't see it as an either/or kind of thing. It's absolutely essential that we recognize the part that grace plays in our lives, but God doesn't just want you to come back to Him; He wants you to come back to Him a better person than you started out.

How long does it take to say to God, "I messed up again father. But thank you so much for forgiving me and for cleansing me from the penalty of my actions?" It shouldn't take but a second or two. After that, forget about it and move ahead praising God for His mercy and grace. It sure beats stewing day after day about your inability to stop whatever sin it is that so easily besets you.
I agree, up to a point. Once we've acknowledged that we have once again, for the upteenth time, committed a sin, and asked God to once again, for the upteenth time, to forgive us, He doesn't want us to wallow forever more in our guilt. But -- and this is critical! -- He wants us to feel genuine remorse for what we've done wrong and make a sincere commitment to try to do better in the future. I can't imagine that, "I'm sorry, but thanks for forgiving me" would mean much to Him unless He knew that we truly intend to repent of the sin.
 

rrobs

Well-Known Member
I've got to disagree with you there. If you "want" to sin at all, you're on the wrong track entirely.
I've not seen in the scriptures where God placed conditions on which sins He forgives and which He doesn't. Nor do I see any sin we can commit that will change God's mind about not imputing those sins to us. The motivation for that sin is irrelevant.

Jas 2:10,

For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one [point], he is guilty of all.
If we are following law all it takes is one misstep and it's all over. I think it's fair to say we all brake some law, therefore all law every day. So whether it's intentional or not the result is the same; death! That is precisely why Jesus bore our sins on the cross, all of them. God's not stupid. He knew darn well every sin you would commit after the new birth. If He wanted to hold any of them against you, He wouldn't have asked Jesus to die the horrible death he did. He's a God of grace, not law!

I don't see it as an either/or kind of thing. It's absolutely essential that we recognize the part that grace plays in our lives, but God doesn't just want you to come back to Him; He wants you to come back to Him a better person than you started out.
Of course God wants us to be a better person. That's precisely why He gave us grace. He understands that law will not make us one whit better. It just makes us more afraid of the future. How many sins do I get before it's too late? Well, that's an interesting question to ponder.
I agree, up to a point. Once we've acknowledged that we have once again, for the upteenth time, committed a sin, and asked God to once again, for the upteenth time, to forgive us, He doesn't want us to wallow forever more in our guilt. But -- and this is critical! -- He wants us to feel genuine remorse for what we've done wrong and make a sincere commitment to try to do better in the future. I can't imagine that, "I'm sorry, but thanks for forgiving me" would mean much to Him unless He knew that we truly intend to repent of the sin.
I know it's hard to imagine. That's why I quoted the verse about God's ways being not our ways. We like to think we can become a better Christian by reigning in the flesh. God thinks differently.

John 6:63,

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life.
We read the words and then promptly discard them, not believing what Jesus said. It's as though we say, "Yes Jesus. I hear what you are saying. That's probably true for most people, but I'm different. I can stop sinning anytime I want to. There is some good in my flesh. I just need to work it out. But thanks for the advice! Maybe next time I'll listen"

Law deals with the flesh. Grace deals with the spirit. It is the spirit, not grace, that quickens us, not a constant monitoring of our fleshly behavior. Paul told us to keep our thoughts on things above, not on things on the earth. Where does your flesh dwell? On the earth, so keep your mind off of your flesh. Instead put your mind on God and what He has done for you in sending His only begotten son. It's a minute by minute walk. You have to think about something every second and you can only think one thought at a time. We can think about ourselves, our behavior, or God and Jesus' behavior in cleansing us from all sin and giving us eternal life. I can't imagine choosing the first choice over the second if I want to walk more Christlike.

I think it's fair to say we both agree that we want to walk more Christlike. The question is how to do that? I know it sounds right to think that the more you control your flesh, the more Christlike you will become. That stop doing this, or start doing that will fit the bill. But it won't! Those things are all based on law (you have to have a list of dos and don'ts) and therefore give the devil an open door to keep you less than what God wants you to be. It's not about doing. It's about believing. The more you believe simple verses like John 6:63 without any reservations, the more Christlike you will become. When you read about grace, stop and ask yourself it you really believe what it says without any ifs, ands, or buts.

The Galatians were trying to walk the hybrid grace/law route and God was as clear as clear can be in telling them to stop doing that. He went so far as to call them fools. Hey, they deserved it! The law only works wrath. Nothing is made better by law.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
I've got to disagree with you there. If you "want" to sin at all, you're on the wrong track entirely.
I've not seen in the scriptures where God placed conditions on which sins He forgives and which He doesn't. Nor do I see any sin we can commit that will change God's mind about not imputing those sins to us. The motivation for that sin is irrelevant.
It was certainly not my intent to "categorize" sins. I was merely stating, and I stand by my position, that we must "want" to be obedient in order for grace to be operative in our lives. Anyone who willfully sins, simply because he figures he can go to God afterwards and say, "I'm sorry, but I know I'm forgiven" doesn't truly understand what grace even is! Grace enables us to be better people than we could be on our own, but it most definitely isn't a "Get out of jail free" card.
 

rrobs

Well-Known Member
It was certainly not my intent to "categorize" sins. I was merely stating, and I stand by my position, that we must "want" to be obedient in order for grace to be operative in our lives. Anyone who willfully sins, simply because he figures he can go to God afterwards and say, "I'm sorry, but I know I'm forgiven" doesn't truly understand what grace even is! Grace enables us to be better people than we could be on our own, but it most definitely isn't a "Get out of jail free" card.
Granted, there is nowhere the scriptures say that grace is a "get out of jail free" card. But they do say it is a "get out of death free."

1 John 1:9 places no limits on how many times we can go to God and admit we sin. He will forgive us every single time. That is the epitome of grace. It's a very simple concept, easily understood once it is believed without reservation.

Grace becomes non-understandable so long as it is mixed with just a wee bit of law.

How are we made "perfect?" I refer you to Galatians chapter 3.

Take care...
 
The devil makes liberal use of shame, guilt, and self condemnation in his relentless effort of spiritually incapacitating every son or daughter of God he can get his hands on. He’s been doing it for 6,000 years, ever since the day he made Adam and Eve aware of their heretofore unnoticed nakedness. There is a good reason he’s relied on our feelings of not measuring up; it works.

But even if before becoming a Christian you learn to not let those 'guilts' get in your way, then you become 'freer' right?

Jeremiah 17:9 "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?"


From where might this 'guilt' arise out of?


Question: Do you not like 'guilt' whatsoever for anything? is any form of 'guilt' bad if it is even alluded to being 'felt'? A life of complete freedom with absolutely no 'guilt' for anything the person might want to partake in, as in 'free choice'?

Then where might the 'conscience' be?


Noone enjoys being 'offended'. Neither the 'free doers', nor the 'faithful'. Children are children. Adults are adults. CPS is CPS.

Child Protective Services (CPS) is the name of a governmental agency in many states of the United States responsible for providing child protection, which includes responding to reports of child abuse or neglect. Some states use other names, often attempting to reflect more family-centered (as opposed to child-centered) practices, such as "Department of Children & Family Services" (DCFS). CPS is also known by the name of "Department of Social Services" (DSS) or simply "Social Services".

Federal
U.S. federal laws that govern CPS agencies include:


Child Protective Services - Wikipedia


The United Kingdom has a comprehensive child welfare system under which local authorities have duties and responsibilities towards children in need in their area.

This covers provision of advice and services, accommodation and care of children who become uncared for, and also the capacity to initiate proceedings for the removal of children from their parents care/care proceedings. The criteria for the latter is 'significant harm' which covers physical, sexual and emotional abuse and neglect.


PILLOWTALK
Zayn Malik
Ooh
Climb on board
We'll go slow and high tempo
Light and dark
Hold me hard and mellow
I'm seeing the pain, seeing the pleasure
Nobody but you, 'body but me
'Body but us, bodies together
I love to hold you close, tonight and always
I love to wake up next to you
I love to hold you close, tonight and always
I love to wake up next to you
So we'll **** off the neighbours
In the place that feels the tears
The place to lose your fears
Yeah, reckless behavior
A place that is so pure, so dirty and raw
In the bed all day, bed all day, bed all day
****ing in and fighting on
It's our paradise and it's our war zone
It's our paradise and it's our war zone
Pillow talk
My enemy, my ally
Prisoners
Then we're free, it's a thin line
I'm seeing the pain, seeing the pleasure
Nobody but you, 'body but me
'Body but us, bodies together
I love to hold you close, tonight and always
I love to wake up next to you
So we'll **** off the neighbours
In the place that feels the tears
The place to lose your fears
Yeah, reckless behavior
A place that is so pure, so dirty and raw
In the bed all day, bed all day, bed all day
****ing and fighting on
It's our paradise and it's our war zone
It's our paradise and it's our war zone
Paradise (paradise), paradise, (paradise)
War zone (war zone), war zone (war zone)
Paradise (paradise), paradise, (paradise)
War zone (war zone), war zone (war zone)
So we'll **** off the neighbours
In the place that feels the tears
The place to lose your fears
Yeah, reckless behavior
A place that is so pure, so dirty and raw
In the bed all day, bed all day, bed all day
****ing and fighting on
It's our paradise and it's our war zone
It's our paradise and it's our war zone
Songwriters: Anthony Hannides / Michael Hannides / Zayn Malik / Joe Garrett / Levi Lennox
PILLOWTALK lyrics © Sony/ATV Music Publishing LLC, Kobalt Music Publishing Ltd., ST Music LLC, BMG Rights Management


Yes, God cares.


A life with no 'guilt' to personal 'choices'. Is that 'guilt' really a bad thing?
 
Last edited:

rrobs

Well-Known Member
But even if before becoming a Christian you learn to not let those 'guilts' get in your way, then you become 'freer' right?

Jeremiah 17:9 "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?"


From where might this 'guilt' arise out of?


Question: Do you not like 'guilt' whatsoever for anything? is any form of 'guilt' bad if it is even alluded to being 'felt'? A life of complete freedom with absolutely no 'guilt' for anything the person might want to partake in, as in 'free choice'?

Then where might the 'conscience' be?


Noone enjoys being 'offended'. Neither the 'free doers', nor the 'faithful'. Children are children. Adults are adults. CPS is CPS.

Child Protective Services (CPS) is the name of a governmental agency in many states of the United States responsible for providing child protection, which includes responding to reports of child abuse or neglect. Some states use other names, often attempting to reflect more family-centered (as opposed to child-centered) practices, such as "Department of Children & Family Services" (DCFS). CPS is also known by the name of "Department of Social Services" (DSS) or simply "Social Services".

Federal
U.S. federal laws that govern CPS agencies include:


Child Protective Services - Wikipedia


The United Kingdom has a comprehensive child welfare system under which local authorities have duties and responsibilities towards children in need in their area.

This covers provision of advice and services, accommodation and care of children who become uncared for, and also the capacity to initiate proceedings for the removal of children from their parents care/care proceedings. The criteria for the latter is 'significant harm' which covers physical, sexual and emotional abuse and neglect.


PILLOWTALK
Zayn Malik
Ooh
Climb on board
We'll go slow and high tempo
Light and dark
Hold me hard and mellow
I'm seeing the pain, seeing the pleasure
Nobody but you, 'body but me
'Body but us, bodies together
I love to hold you close, tonight and always
I love to wake up next to you
I love to hold you close, tonight and always
I love to wake up next to you
So we'll **** off the neighbours
In the place that feels the tears
The place to lose your fears
Yeah, reckless behavior
A place that is so pure, so dirty and raw
In the bed all day, bed all day, bed all day
****ing in and fighting on
It's our paradise and it's our war zone
It's our paradise and it's our war zone
Pillow talk
My enemy, my ally
Prisoners
Then we're free, it's a thin line
I'm seeing the pain, seeing the pleasure
Nobody but you, 'body but me
'Body but us, bodies together
I love to hold you close, tonight and always
I love to wake up next to you
So we'll **** off the neighbours
In the place that feels the tears
The place to lose your fears
Yeah, reckless behavior
A place that is so pure, so dirty and raw
In the bed all day, bed all day, bed all day
****ing and fighting on
It's our paradise and it's our war zone
It's our paradise and it's our war zone
Paradise (paradise), paradise, (paradise)
War zone (war zone), war zone (war zone)
Paradise (paradise), paradise, (paradise)
War zone (war zone), war zone (war zone)
So we'll **** off the neighbours
In the place that feels the tears
The place to lose your fears
Yeah, reckless behavior
A place that is so pure, so dirty and raw
In the bed all day, bed all day, bed all day
****ing and fighting on
It's our paradise and it's our war zone
It's our paradise and it's our war zone
Songwriters: Anthony Hannides / Michael Hannides / Zayn Malik / Joe Garrett / Levi Lennox
PILLOWTALK lyrics © Sony/ATV Music Publishing LLC, Kobalt Music Publishing Ltd., ST Music LLC, BMG Rights Management


Yes, God cares.


A life with no 'guilt' to personal 'choices'. Is that 'guilt' really a bad thing?
I wouldn't see any place for guilt to the born again Christian who understands they are as righteous as God. Like I said, when we do sin, which we will, instead of stewing in guilt, just confess that sin and God will forgive you and cleanse you from all unrighteousness. I suppose there would be a brief period of guilt until you confess it, but guilt certainly shouldn't dominate in the life of any Christian.

I know Christians who spend day after day feeling guilty about some sin or another. That can only be because they don't really believe God when He clearly said their sins are forgiven. If you believe God that He has forgiven you by the work of His dear son, it's be awfully hard to have a "bad day." It's not a very good witness to walk around full of condemnation, that's for sure.
 
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