• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Government is too invasive

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
Hello guys. :)
I do want people to convince me that a social State is not a good idea, since I know there are so many Americans who say that "Government should be less invasive" and so on.

By Social State (called welfare state in Anglo-Saxon country), I mean all those things which were created throughout the 20th century, such as pension system, free universal healthcare, state-owned assets such as essential public services and similar.
 

John53

I go leaps and bounds
Premium Member
Hello guys. :)
I do want people to convince me that a social State is not a good idea, since I know there are so many Americans who say that "Government should be less invasive" and so on.

By Social State (called welfare state in Anglo-Saxon country), I mean all those things which were created throughout the 20th century, such as pension system, free universal healthcare, state-owned assets such as essential public services and similar.

What's a better alternative?
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Hello guys. :)
I do want people to convince me that a social State is not a good idea, since I know there are so many Americans who say that "Government should be less invasive" and so on.

By Social State (called welfare state in Anglo-Saxon country), I mean all those things which were created throughout the 20th century, such as pension system, free universal healthcare, state-owned assets such as essential public services and similar.
I believe a Christian should favor a system that advocates much like you say in your 2nd paragraph. Some call it a "nanny state", and I call it basic human compassion that even "uncivilized" hunting & gathering bands have.
 

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
By Social State (called welfare state in Anglo-Saxon country), I mean all those things which were created throughout the 20th century, such as pension system, free universal healthcare, state-owned assets such as essential public services and similar.
I think this is a very good system...best example of humanism, IMO. Who could possibly be against this?:)
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
It's true that some people do take advantage of welfare and social services. I have no idea what the extent is. It exists as a humanitarian service in an economic economy that is very competitive and greedy. These were put into place due to the deadly poverty and health crisis that this tye of economic system creates. Governments have existed since humans gathered in tribes to survive. The bigger the tribe the more expansive role government plays, that is just the way the natural course of behavior goes. It is in the best interest of the entire society that there is minimal poverty and disease. I see the right complain about social services and that they want a more "dog-eat-dog" type of society, and that just won't work. It won't be tolerated. I notice conservatives want less social services but they offer no credible solution to offset the damage it would cause. We see this is a tyical pattern, just like with banning abortion services and now a whole host of crises were caused. This is irresponsible leadership, that causing a social crisis for people and they are forced to find their own solution, and often not able due to poverty.

So want to solve the need for big government? Create a more fair and ethical business society.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Hello guys. :)
I do want people to convince me that a social State is not a good idea, since I know there are so many Americans who say that "Government should be less invasive" and so on.

By Social State (called welfare state in Anglo-Saxon country), I mean all those things which were created throughout the 20th century, such as pension system, free universal healthcare, state-owned assets such as essential public services and similar.

It's a great way to control people and get them to do what you want.

It's why Democrats push these things. They want you dependant on them like a drug dealer with their "clients".

"A little push and you will be smiling".... -Billy Joel-
 

Brickjectivity

wind and rain touch not this brain
Staff member
Premium Member
What we have is pretty good relative to everything that has gone before. A 'Social state' is too ambiguous a term.

By Social State (called welfare state in Anglo-Saxon country), I mean all those things which were created throughout the 20th century, such as pension system, free universal healthcare, state-owned assets such as essential public services and similar.
Internal Revenue Service. Firstly it is not a service. It makes you beg the government for permission to have a job. There are other ways to get revenue than making every citizen submit all of our information to nameless joes in an office somewhere.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Hello guys. :)
I do want people to convince me that a social State is not a good idea, since I know there are so many Americans who say that "Government should be less invasive" and so on.

By Social State (called welfare state in Anglo-Saxon country), I mean all those things which were created throughout the 20th century, such as pension system, free universal healthcare, state-owned assets such as essential public services and similar.

Part of the problem which has taken place in America is that there was an ideological shift towards Reaganomics in the 1980s, in which even Democrats joined in. They promised to get government off people's backs, and they pushed for deregulation, lowering tariffs, busting unions, cutting social programs, lowering taxes.

Yet this also included huge increases in defense spending, as well as a renewed offensive in the War on Drugs, when law enforcement started to become more militarized and aggressive. And of course, our foreign policy and militarism became more aggressive, as if America learned absolutely nothing from the Vietnam War.

So, when people say "government is too invasive," it's not always consistently applied. The right-wingers are perfectly happy for government to kick in doors and invade the homes of people in the lower-class neighborhoods. In their minds, an "invasive" government is one which actually has the power to tax its citizenry. I never could understand the country club Republican obsession over taxes. These are the kinds of people who will think nothing of spending $1 million on a bottle of wine, yet they seemingly resent having to pay even a single dime in taxation.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
P They promised to get government off people's backs, and they pushed for deregulation, lowering tariffs, busting unions, cutting social programs, lowering taxes.
And yet, under Reagan federal regulations blossomed.
Federal Regulatory Growth
And federal tax revenue grew every year also.
Who Really Pays Uncle Sam's Bills?
Federal Tax Revenue by Source, 1934 - 2018 | Tax Foundation

What politicians say is often at odds with what they
actually do. Is it about dishonesty or error? It varies.
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
Part of the problem which has taken place in America is that there was an ideological shift towards Reaganomics in the 1980s, in which even Democrats joined in. They promised to get government off people's backs, and they pushed for deregulation, lowering tariffs, busting unions, cutting social programs, lowering taxes.

Yet this also included huge increases in defense spending, as well as a renewed offensive in the War on Drugs, when law enforcement started to become more militarized and aggressive. And of course, our foreign policy and militarism became more aggressive, as if America learned absolutely nothing from the Vietnam War.

So, when people say "government is too invasive," it's not always consistently applied. The right-wingers are perfectly happy for government to kick in doors and invade the homes of people in the lower-class neighborhoods. In their minds, an "invasive" government is one which actually has the power to tax its citizenry. I never could understand the country club Republican obsession over taxes. These are the kinds of people who will think nothing of spending $1 million on a bottle of wine, yet they seemingly resent having to pay even a single dime in taxation.
Yes...that's what I won't understand. These carefree wealthy (Republican and Conservative) élites think the Government (as they call it) should not waste money on free universal healthcare or similar socialist stuff...but the war budget is limitless. They think that the Government has all the money in the world, if there is a war to fund. Pointless double standards.
And war is like a bottomless pit, the more money you spend on wars, the more the economic losses will be.

Whereas the money spend on public healthcare aims at increasing the overall GDP. Because a public hospital is an asset.
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
It's true that some people do take advantage of welfare and social services. I have no idea what the extent is. It exists as a humanitarian service in an economic economy that is very competitive and greedy. These were put into place due to the deadly poverty and health crisis that this tye of economic system creates. Governments have existed since humans gathered in tribes to survive. The bigger the tribe the more expansive role government plays, that is just the way the natural course of behavior goes. It is in the best interest of the entire society that there is minimal poverty and disease. I see the right complain about social services and that they want a more "dog-eat-dog" type of society, and that just won't work. It won't be tolerated. I notice conservatives want less social services but they offer no credible solution to offset the damage it would cause. We see this is a tyical pattern, just like with banning abortion services and now a whole host of crises were caused. This is irresponsible leadership, that causing a social crisis for people and they are forced to find their own solution, and often not able due to poverty.

So want to solve the need for big government? Create a more fair and ethical business society.

Because the United States are made up of individuals.
And individuals compete with one and another. And are alone. They think separately.
European Nations are made up of communities that feel like one. A community projects anything. How many children the community needs, what kind of jobs need to be created, what kind of services and so on.

A society made up of individuals is chaotic.
A society made up of interconnected communities is organized.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Because the United States are made up of individuals.
And individuals compete with one and another. And are alone. They think separately.
European Nations are made up of communities that feel like one. A community projects anything. How many children the community needs, what kind of jobs need to be created, what kind of services and so on.

A society made up of individuals is chaotic.
A society made up of interconnected communities is organized.
When an individual goes bad, it's a problem.
When an interconnected community goes bad,
terms like "Godwin's Law" get invoked.

BTW, Italy might soon experience the dark
side of favoring community over individuals.
Fears For Rights Under Italy's 'Christian Mother' Meloni
 
Last edited:

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
When an individual goes bad, it's a problem.
When an interconnected community goes bad,
terms like "Godwin's Law" get invoked.

BTW, Italy might experience the dark side of
favoring community over individuals.
Fears For Rights Under Italy's 'Christian Mother' Meloni

From your article :)

Giorgia Meloni, a 45-year-old who has campaigned under the slogan of "God, country and family" and against "woke ideology", is likely to become Italy's first female prime minister if her post-fascist Brothers of Italy party wins the general election on Sunday.

By the way, she says "God, Fatherland and Family", not "country".

I just think Americans wrongly believe fascism is right wing, whereas the Duce was a socialist and an atheist.
So...Meloni is certainly not a socialist, she is a Conservative and 100% loyal to the United States, so that should reassure you.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
From your article :)



By the way, she says "God, Fatherland and Family", not "country".

I just think Americans think fascism is right wing, whereas the Duce was a socialist and an atheist.
So...Meloni is certainly not a socialist, she is a Conservative and 100% loyal to the United States, so that should reassure you.
Thoughts...
- I need no reassurance. But her loyalty might shift
towards Putin, given her & his shared social values.
- Conservatism & socialism aren't mutually exclusive.
- Catholics are about 23% of USA, but 67% of SCOTUS.
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
Thoughts...
- I need no reassurance. But her loyalty might shift
towards Putin, given her & his shared social values.
- Conservatism & socialism aren't mutually exclusive.
- Catholics are about 23% of USA, but 67% of SCOTUS.

Bravo. You are correct. Conservatism and socialism aren't mutually exclusive, and in fact there are so many socialists who are also Conservatives in Italy.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
It's true that some people do take advantage of welfare and social services.


You know.... I hear that all the time as an argument against things like universal health care and welfare programs for the unemployed etc.

And I always wonder what the heck they are talking about.
As if people as a carreer plan just simply stay home and "live the good life" with welfare money collected from taxpayers who do have jobs.

I know, and have known, plenty of people who were unemployed living on welfare, or worse: couldn't work because of health problems and received another type of welfare (which is more money then mere unemployment welfare, with other additional medical help also). I can assure you that none of them live(d) "the good life".

All of them instead were rather poor. Barely had money to go have a beer with friends. Restaurants in general were out of the question due to budget problems. They live in small cheap apartments with plastic furniture. If they can afford a car, it's an old small piece of junk with 150.000 km's on it.


Sure, I can imagine that if you search really really hard, you'll find people who consider it enough and are happy living that way.

But the vast majority of people do not live like that by choice. Especially not in "rich" western nations where the actual standard of living is quite luxurious.

Those who are fine with such a "poor" way of life, are likely people who are used to even worse then that. But they too after a while will notice that they could do even better just by getting a job.

So the logic of such "argument" against welfare programs and alike, escapes me completely.

It exists as a humanitarian service in an economic economy that is very competitive and greedy. These were put into place due to the deadly poverty and health crisis that this tye of economic system creates.

Hmm. Disagree.
Poverty is something that pretty much appears in all societal systems. If anything, I'ld say that the free capitalist system of the secular west has lowered those numbers.

So the way I see it, such programs weren't created to cover the poor that "the system creates". It rather was created to address the poverty that has always existed and which today, in western secular democracies, is at an all time low.


Governments have existed since humans gathered in tribes to survive. The bigger the tribe the more expansive role government plays, that is just the way the natural course of behavior goes. It is in the best interest of the entire society that there is minimal poverty and disease. I see the right complain about social services and that they want a more "dog-eat-dog" type of society, and that just won't work. It won't be tolerated. I notice conservatives want less social services but they offer no credible solution to offset the damage it would cause. We see this is a tyical pattern, just like with banning abortion services and now a whole host of crises were caused. This is irresponsible leadership, that causing a social crisis for people and they are forced to find their own solution, and often not able due to poverty.

Agreed.

So want to solve the need for big government? Create a more fair and ethical business society.


Disagree. I don't think that can be done. Or, at least not to the extent that you'll be able to eliminate poverty. You'll always have poverty. It can go very fast, you know. All it takes is an unfortunate decision or two. Or things totally out of your control. So many things can go wrong when you for example try to build a business. If you're not careful, you might lose everything. You might end up in terrible debt taking you years to pay off.

No amount of "business regulation" or ethical ruling is going to change such circumstances.
Off course one should try, but one should not kid oneselves.

This is why such welfare programs exists. It tries to catch people who fall in business. Or it tries to help people get back on their feet after an unfortunate series of events out of their control, or a few bad decisions.

We are collectively responsible for one another. When as a society we collectively help the unfortunate back on their feet, then the whole of society benefits.
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
Thoughts...
- I need no reassurance. But her loyalty might shift
towards Putin, given her & his shared social values.
.
Putin nationalized the resources of his own country. And I like this expression: his own country.

My people loves the politicians who nationalize and are very allergic to the politicians who privatize.
Instead of nationalizing.

Back to the thread, I think that essential public services are a serious matter and should be under the control of the State.
 
Last edited:
Top