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Gorsuch enables the execution of Ledell Lee

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
This is not emotional based.
Actually it is. Capital punishment is more costly and does not work as a deterrent, and sometimes the life of an innocent is put to a wrongful end.
You're still mixing up these definitions.
No, I'm not. "Justice" is a concept that is not weighted by emotions. Revenge is personally motivated: Justice is impersonal consequences.
The victims of crimes can still want their perpetrators to go to prison more as a result of emotions than logic... It could be that they want the criminal to do life when the law suggests a maximum of 10 years...
Justice and the law is not designed to let the victim decide the punishment. That alone would violate the very foundations of trying to keep those involved in making court decisions disinterested from the case.
Again, this is all relative. You're just playing with semantics. Can we now move on?
I'm not playing with semantics, you are trying to make a point that has no argument further than "this how I think it ought to be."
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
That isn't natural, though.


What isn't ?

They're behind bars dealing with prison life while regardless if they are killed or not I'm still piecing my life back together. Regardless, there is still healing and recovery, regardless the outcome will be the same, and regardless you can't move on with you're own life if you live in the past.

It's not about moving on, it's about justice.
 

Lyndon

"Peace is the answer" quote: GOD, 2014
Premium Member
yeah, a lot of justice involved in putting an innocent man to death!!
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
It's not about moving on, it's about justice.
A victim has to move on regardless of justice being administered or not. Often enough, crimes go unpunished with no one facing the consequences over it. Nevertheless, the victim must move on.
 

suncowiam

Well-Known Member
Actually it is. Capital punishment is more costly and does not work as a deterrent, and sometimes the life of an innocent is put to a wrongful end.

No, I'm not. "Justice" is a concept that is not weighted by emotions. Revenge is personally motivated: Justice is impersonal consequences.

Justice and the law is not designed to let the victim decide the punishment. That alone would violate the very foundations of trying to keep those involved in making court decisions disinterested from the case.

I'm not playing with semantics, you are trying to make a point that has no argument further than "this how I think it ought to be."

Well, if you want to argue with the law, then you're on the wrong side as the law was decided. :)

You're telling me the supreme court and the process from the lower court to the higher courts were emotionally based? That they were all out for blood? That you're more rationally and ethically trained to decide this?

Simple answer is NOPE, you're not. You again are using your terms as you see fit, but they're not correctly being used. In your eyes, you only see capital punishment as only vengeance but that is where your argument fails. It's punishment. Vengeance in context is assumed from a personal standpoint, but when you have a whole court system with judges and jury that were not tainted by the crime, then one should understand that it was not decided in vengeance.

If the victim purposely carried out the killing of the criminal, then I'll agree with you that in that context it would be vengeance.

I think we'll just repeat ourselves like the last time. You'll just cherry pick your arguments and throw the rest away that doesn't suit you...

And remember, because you tend to forget, I did say that we can all objectively agree that a criminal must be punished. But how we punish them is subjective. You might as well throw "this I think it ought to be" sling at yourself.

Seriously, are we done yet?
 
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suncowiam

Well-Known Member
yeah, a lot of justice involved in putting an innocent man to death!!

But we're not discussing that...

No one here will argue with you to put an innocent man to death.

No one here will argue with you to also put an innocent man in jail for life, but that happens too.

Why even leave chance for a mistake to force a person in jail if we can't assume a verdict to be correct?

It's all relative, hence, subjective. Right?
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
A victim has to move on regardless of justice being administered or not. Often enough, crimes go unpunished with no one facing the consequences over it. Nevertheless, the victim must move on.

A perfect example of red herring.
We are talking about justice, not about whether a victim must move on. That's beside the point.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
But we're not discussing that...

No one here will argue with you to put an innocent man to death.

No one here will argue with you to also put an innocent man in jail for life, but that happens too.

Why even leave chance for a mistake to force a person in jail if we can't assume a verdict to be correct?

It's all relative, hence, subjective. Right?

I think it depends on the level of certainty and what a court might accept as "proof beyond a reasonable doubt." The Innocence Project and other such advocacy groups cast doubt on whether or not verdicts should be assumed to be correct.

I recall an excerpt from Vincent Bugliosi's book Outrage where he talks about public perceptions about judges:

A word about judges.

The American public have an understandably negative view of politicians, public opinions show, and an equally negative view of lawyers. Conventional logic would seem to dictate that since a judge is normally both a politician and a lawyer, people would have a markedly low opinion of them. But on the contrary, the mere investiture of a twenty-five-dollar black cotton robe elevates the denigrated lawyer-politician to a position of considerable honor and respect in our society, as if the garment itself miraculously imbues the person with qualities not previously possessed. As an example, judges have, for the most part, remained off-limits to the creators of popular entertainment, being depicted on screens large and small as learned men and women of statue and solemnity who are as impartial as sunlight. This depiction ignores reality.

As to the political aspects of judges, the appointment of judgeships by governors (or the President in federal courts) has always been part and parcel of the political spoils or patronage system. For example, 97 percent of President Reagan’s appointees to the federal branch were Republicans. Thus, in the overwhelming majority of cases there is an umbilical cord between the appointment and politics. Either the appointee has personally labored long and hard in the political vineyards, or he is a favored friend of one who has, oftentimes a generous financial supporter of the party in power. As Roy Mersky, professor at the University of Texas Law School, says, “To be appointed a judge, to a great extent is a result of one’s political activity.” Consequently, lawyers entering courtrooms are frequently confronted with the specter of a new judge they’ve never heard of and know absolutely nothing about. The judge may never have distinguished himself in the legal profession, but a cursory investigation almost invariably reveals a political connection. (Of course, just because there is a political connection does not mean that the judge is not otherwise competent and qualified to sit on the bench. Many times he is.) Incredibly, and unfortunately, the political connection holds true all the way up to the U.S. Supreme Court, where, for instance, the last three Chief Justices–Earl Warren, Warren E. Burger, and, to a lesser extent, William Rehnquist–like so many of their predecessors in history, have all been creatures of politics.

Although there are many exceptions, by and large the bench boasts undistinguished lawyers whose principal qualification for the most important position in our legal system is the all-important political connection. Rarely, for instance, will a governor seek out a reknown but apolitical legal scholar, such as a highly regarded law school professor, and proffer a judgeship.

It has been my experience and, I daresay, the experience of most veteran trial lawyers that the typical judge either has no or very scant trial experience as a lawyer, or is pompous and dictatorial on the bench, or worst of all, is clearly partial to one side or the other in a lawsuit. Sometimes the judge displays all three infirmities.

There is some truth to what he says, especially in that the general public tends to look poorly upon politicians and bureaucrats, but have them wear a badge or a black robe, then suddenly that attitude switches to one of immense awe, respect, and deference. Questioning a verdict they render is tantamount to questioning their honor, which is simply not done. A lot of people become offended if others show disrespect or question the honor of judges and police officers; it's almost like burning the American flag.
 

suncowiam

Well-Known Member
I think it depends on the level of certainty and what a court might accept as "proof beyond a reasonable doubt." The Innocence Project and other such advocacy groups cast doubt on whether or not verdicts should be assumed to be correct.

I recall an excerpt from Vincent Bugliosi's book Outrage where he talks about public perceptions about judges:



There is some truth to what he says, especially in that the general public tends to look poorly upon politicians and bureaucrats, but have them wear a badge or a black robe, then suddenly that attitude switches to one of immense awe, respect, and deference. Questioning a verdict they render is tantamount to questioning their honor, which is simply not done. A lot of people become offended if others show disrespect or question the honor of judges and police officers; it's almost like burning the American flag.

I acknowledge that there are flaws with the court system, but that is completely beyond me to even discuss.

I don't know of a system that will result in 100% certainty. Every time I hear a story of an innocent person released from jail after decades of incarceration, my stomach just feels like turning inside out.
 

suncowiam

Well-Known Member
I don't use the quote format because your comments are so ill informed, they don't stand repeating, case in point!!

Hey, aren't you Christian?

Care to clarify this verse?

New International Version
"Whoever sheds human blood, by humans shall their blood be shed; for in the image of God has God made mankind.

New Living Translation
If anyone takes a human life, that person's life will also be taken by human hands. For God made human beings in his own image.

Genesis 9:6 "Whoever sheds human blood, by humans shall their blood be shed; for in the image of God has God made mankind.

Not that I need the Bible to support this for me, but I actually agree with it.

As a Christian man, what do you think?
 

Lyndon

"Peace is the answer" quote: GOD, 2014
Premium Member
I think its a load of rubbish, like much of the Bible. Especially the OT.
 
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