Good news for the unvaccinated?

[sayak83]

Yes, only with drunk driving. No,I don't agree with it when compared to the vaccination argument.

I'm not sure how to relate it to drunk driving because it already puts unvaccinated in a disadvantage not a default position.

Instead, both all people were at the same level of threat. Vac decreased their chances. Unvaxed did not.

The latter didn't do anything to increase their odds. No drunk driving. We are all on the same playing field.

I am confused.
Do you believe that vaccinated people are statistically less likely to get infected, spread infection, get seriously ill or die from Covid than unvaccinated people.
If yes, then promoting vaccination through outreach, adverts etc. is a public good and the govt. is correct in doing this. It therefore cannot be propaganda.
That is the argument.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I am confused.
Do you believe that vaccinated people are statistically less likely to get infected, spread infection, get seriously ill or die from Covid than unvaccinated people.
If yes, then promoting vaccination through outreach, adverts etc. is a public good and the govt. is correct in doing this. It therefore cannot be propaganda.
That is the argument.

And even more so, does she think that unvaccinated people are more likely to infect others? They are more likely to pass the disease on because they are more likely to get infected in the first place. I would not care nearly as much about Covid if people were only a threat to themselves. It is when one is a threat to others through inaction that they become a problem.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

This is just grasping at straws. The law would not punish someone unless they refused to get a vaccination. Refusing to do something is still an act. For example, I watch sovereign citizen videos. Eventually they often get arrested. They almost always they add new charges by not complying. Not complying is arguably not doing anything, but it is still illegal.

The argument wasn't refusing the vac just not being vaccinated.

How to say.

The weekly COVID test is like taking the breathe test to see If one has symptoms of COVID. The law has evidence-the positive results-and has reason to arrest. The person gets a ticket.

That I don't mind.

But being unvax provides no evidence to warrant the arrest. It's not saying a person has symptoms. It says nothing about the person's health. So if it were brought up in court there'd be no arrest and ticket cause all the cop has is the law (words from experts) but he needs to avoid using it as an excuse to arrest any person unvaxed who didnt break the law.

Now, if they found out the unvax had symptoms she should be treated the same as the vax who has symptoms. They both get tickets.

There's so much involved but your analogy puts the unvax at fault rather than vax and unvax "starting" at a neutral position to build a point for or against.

 

[Subduction Zone]

The argument wasn't refusing the vac just not being vaccinated.

How to say.

The weekly COVID test is like taking the breathe test to see If one has symptoms of COVID. The law has evidence-the positive results-and has reason to arrest. The person gets a ticket.

That I don't mind.

But being unvax provides no evidence to warrant the arrest. It's not saying a person has symptoms. It says nothing about the person's health. So if it were brought up in court there'd be no arrest and ticket cause all the cop has is the law (words from experts) but he needs to avoid using it as an excuse to arrest any person unvaxed.

Now, if they found out the unvax had symptoms she should be treated the same as the vax who has symptoms. They both get tickets.

There's so much involved but your analogy puts the unvax at fault rather than vax and unvax "starting" at a neutral position to build a point for or against.

I disagree. By nit picking one small item in the analogy you do not refute it. No analogy is perfect it is merely a tool to get an idea across. Your version of the analogy is almost pointless.

Until you find a better refutation I am sticking with my analogy.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I am confused.
Do you believe that vaccinated people are statistically less likely to get infected, spread infection, get seriously ill or die from Covid than unvaccinated people.
If yes, then promoting vaccination through outreach, adverts etc. is a public good and the govt. is correct in doing this. It therefore cannot be propaganda.
That is the argument.

Yes. But I'm not talking about statistics at all.

I'm specifically saying US has a history of using propaganda so people can joining a cause, war, pandemic, whatever. Given the urgency, it's throwing everything but the kitchen sink.

I am sure people would know the difference between advertisement and propaganda if the latter didn't support their opinions.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I disagree. By nit picking one small item in the analogy you do not refute it. No analogy is perfect it is merely a tool to get an idea across. Your version of the analogy is almost pointless.

Until you find a better refutation I am sticking with my analogy.

Can you address what's wrong with it...the information in the post.

You don't have to be on a constant state of rebuttal to have a conversation. Waste of energy.

....

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I disagree. By nit picking one small item in the analogy you do not refute it. No analogy is perfect it is merely a tool to get an idea across. Your version of the analogy is almost pointless.

Until you find a better refutation I am sticking with my analogy.

You didn't bring up an analogy so I'm not sure why you're defending (what are you defending?) when the post wasn't addressed to you.

None the less the argument has always been why not wear a seatbelt to follow the law. The idea isn't following the rules for oneself but protect others. You don't protect the passenger by your seatbelt.

The argument has always been getting vaccinated will prevent you from spreading COVID to other people; so, if you're unvaccinated you can spread COVID and put people's lives in danger.

It doesn't work because the argument is not to protect oneself therefore laws but to protect others. It's using the law to determine mandates for unvaccinated but the idea isn't to care for the unvaccinated themselves but the people they say they are putting in danger.

The analogy of the drunk driving was originally for vaccine mandates not being unvaccinated and propaganda (as my comments in this thread).

I'm totally not sure what you're debating because the comment to @sayak83 was about propaganda and history of it used to convince people to fight wars and pandemics (war against the virus) not laws and vaccine mandates.

The same laws are used to protect the innocent from drunk drivers. Yes, people should be willing not to drink and drive so that such laws would not be necessary. The real world is not like that. And yes, everyone that can should be happy to get the vaccine. But the real world is not like that.

Therefore what exactly is this referring to relating to propaganda of pushing the COVID vaccine and even more so the OP that talks highlighting anti-vax poor decisions leading to death (as if death cared about who chose to take the vaccine or not)?

 

[wandering peacefully]

A New US/Japan Variant To Watch

 

[sayak83]

Yes. But I'm not talking about statistics at all.

I'm specifically saying US has a history of using propaganda so people can joining a cause, war, pandemic, whatever. Given the urgency, it's throwing everything but the kitchen sink.

I am sure people would know the difference between advertisement and propaganda if the latter didn't support their opinions.

You are claiming vaccination promotion efforts are propaganda despite the fact that vaccination has been established to decrease cases of serious illness and mortality among the population. I want know why you believe this. These promotions are in public interest after all.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

View attachment 55513

'Funeral home' ad spreads message for the unvaccinated - CNN

"Get vaccinated now" pops up on the site, along with a message that says, "If not, see you soon." The ad agency, BooneOakley, had decided it was time to get serious.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Talking with anti-vaxers reminds me of that sissy guy.

And lately I've been wondering why I haven't jumped off the treadmill.

 

[Revoltingest]

And lately I've been wondering why I haven't jumped off the treadmill.

Endless discussions of the same thing...over & over...they
never accept or understand the epidemiological perspective.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

You are claiming vaccination promotion efforts are propaganda despite the fact that vaccination has been established to decrease cases of serious illness and mortality among the population. I want know why you believe this. These promotions are in public interest after all.

They're definitely not promotions or advertisement. Propaganda is successful, so in that respect they are reaching their goal.

I think more people would see it if it were about something else. They can tell the difference.

The problem with propaganda promotion is that coercion, ultimatums censorship, and using media to one side the vax effort loses some people's trust.

Here are the differences between advertisement and promotion Difference Between Advertisement and Propaganda | Difference Between

Advertisement

This is the use of multimedia methods to promote activities, services or products by use of different avenues, with an aim of persuading potential consumers. It is commonly incorporated in magazines, billboards, newspapers, televisions, and online.

Advertisement purpose is to promote product and services.

The goal is to make money. Marketing.

Propaganda

This is the act of influencing people by changing their attitudes and perceptions regarding the way they view certain products, services and even beliefs. The most common types of propaganda include religious and political propaganda

Propaganda is primarily used for political reasons. It attempts to influence people's ideas, beliefs, emotions, and behaviors so that can be coerced to fight a cause (war/pandemic/etc).

When people's emotions and beliefs are changed to a cause they can't see what's wrong or because it uses fallacies people fall into it. Especially when there are expert claims involved.

The is some techniques involved
https://motioncue.com/types-of-propaganda-techniques-in-advertising/

Table of Contents

The beginning of corporate propaganda
Present-day propaganda in advertising
11 types of propaganda techniques in advertising
1. Testimonial
2. Stereotyping
3. Fear appeals
4. Bandwagon
5. Plain folks
6. Transfer propaganda technique
7. Name-calling
8. Card stacking
9. Glittering generalities
10. Ad nauseam propaganda
11. Appeal to prejudice propaganda

It's a good website if you (all) are interested in reading it.

Advertisement doesn't do these things. It's strictly marketing.

Doctors do not try to get people to use their services, take their meds, and follow their treatments by these methods.

They respect the patients views because the latter views and symptoms are important in the diagnoses. The health of the person is primary to the doctors opinions.

That's not the case with this.

What happens is (picked from above link)

1. Stereotyping
2. Fear appeals: "millions" of people died...as opposed to millions out of billions of people died. The numbers are highlighted to pull people to act

3. Bandwagon

If you're not with us you're against us

All people are getting vaxed why not you

We" can do it (mc Donald slogan)

4. Plain folk:

Biden getting the vax to show he's not above others "on camera."

5. Name calling: covidiot, antivax

Advertisement does Not do this to promote their products.

They would get sued.

I didn't name them all.

**

This has NOTHING to do with/it's NOT about

1. Efficiency of the vax
2. Validity of stats
3.downplaying the pandemic and deaths.
4. Convincing people not to take the vaccine

**

Those opinions are all comes from provaxers regardless who says otherwise. Censorship is usually the result.

Advertisements don't censor. That's why there are product reviews. They Want to hear about their products ineffectiveness to improve it.

Propaganda doesn't have that. They suppress information. You can see it just by googling misinformation.

It DOES have consequences like division, hate, protests.

No one thinks together because propaganda is messing with people's emotions to get the to turn against each other.

-

It's counterproductive. Sadly there's no solution because of the politics.

It doesn't work for a lot of people hence the mandates.

Whether you agree or not is your thing but US history has a track record for this stuff.

Pointing it out isn't a problem if people put aside their emotions.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Yes, this is long but you can read it with an open mind or rebut it. it's pretty interesting to observe. There's no fight here.

 

[sayak83]

They're definitely not promotions or advertisement. Propaganda is successful, so in that respect they are reaching their goal.

I think more people would see it if it were about something else. They can tell the difference.

The problem with propaganda promotion is that coercion, ultimatums censorship, and using media to one side the vax effort loses some people's trust.

Here are the differences between advertisement and promotion Difference Between Advertisement and Propaganda | Difference Between

Advertisement



Advertisement purpose is to promote product and services.

The goal is to make money. Marketing.

Propaganda


Propaganda is primarily used for political reasons. It attempts to influence people's ideas, beliefs, emotions, and behaviors so that can be coerced to fight a cause (war/pandemic/etc).

When people's emotions and beliefs are changed to a cause they can't see what's wrong or because it uses fallacies people fall into it. Especially when there are expert claims involved.

The is some techniques involved
https://motioncue.com/types-of-propaganda-techniques-in-advertising/



It's a good website if you (all) are interested in reading it.

Advertisement doesn't do these things. It's strictly marketing.

Doctors do not try to get people to use their services, take their meds, and follow their treatments by these methods.

They respect the patients views because the latter views and symptoms are important in the diagnoses. The health of the person is primary to the doctors opinions.

That's not the case with this.

What happens is (picked from above link)



I didn't name them all.



This has NOTHING to do with/it's NOT about

1. Efficiency of the vax
2. Validity of stats
3.downplaying the pandemic and deaths.
4. Convincing people not to te the vaccine

Those opinions are all comes from provaxers regardless who says otherwise. Censorship is usually the result.

Advertisements don't censor. That's why there are product reviews. They Want to hear about their products ineffectiveness to improve it.

Propaganda doesn't have that. They suppress information. You can see it just by googling misinformation.

It DOES have consequences like division, hate, protests.

No one thinks together because propaganda is messing with people's emotions to get the to turn against each other.

-

It's counterproductive. Sadly there's no solution because of the politics.

It doesn't work for a lot of people hence the mandates.

Whether you agree or not is your thing but US history has a track record for this stuff.

Pointing it out isn't a problem if people put aside their emotions.

Let's look at the difference in aim from this website

While advertisements aim at attracting public attention to a certain service or product and change consumer preference, propaganda aims at distorting facts and basing them on biased opinions hence is misleading to the target group.

In my view what the govt. and media is doing is advertisement here because only the correct facts regarding the real benefits of vaccination in preventing serious Covid and the significantly higher risks of serious illness and mortality associated with not vaccinating are being presented and no attempt at distortion of these facts is happening.
In contrast, a significant chunk of arguments against vaccinations is in fact false and misleading and hence is propaganda which therefore is correctly being taken down from Facebook and other big public networks.
The point about an ad being only about a commercial purchase is simply not true because a non-profit can run an ad to get donors for a charity, or one can run an ad for a job position or even to look for a romantic date for example. Another, an advert outlining the dangers of smoking (in terms of getting cancer) is an ad and not propaganda as the facts presented are correct. Similarly if govt. wishes to censor ads trying to promote drugs and cigarettes because they affect health, that too seems perfectly legitimate to me.
Hence, you need to tell me exactly why you think that Covid related promotions are propaganda when they are giving accurate information and asking the public to take vaccine for their own well being and health?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Let's look at the difference in aim from this website

While advertisements aim at attracting public attention to a certain service or product and change consumer preference, propaganda aims at distorting facts and basing them on biased opinions hence is misleading to the target group.

In my view what the govt. and media is doing is advertisement here because only the correct facts regarding the real benefits of vaccination in preventing serious Covid and the significantly higher risks of serious illness and mortality associated with not vaccinating are being presented and no attempt at distortion of these facts is happening.
In contrast, a significant chunk of arguments against vaccinations is in fact false and misleading and hence is propaganda which therefore is correctly being taken down from Facebook and other big public networks.
The point about an ad being only about a commercial purchase is simply not true because a non-profit can run an ad to get donors for a charity, or one can run an ad for a job position or even to look for a romantic date for example. Another, an advert outlining the dangers of smoking (in terms of getting cancer) is an ad and not propaganda as the facts presented are correct. Similarly if govt. wishes to censor ads trying to promote drugs and cigarettes because they affect health, that too seems perfectly legitimate to me.
Hence, you need to tell me exactly why you think that Covid related promotions are propaganda when they are giving accurate information and asking the public to take vaccine for their own well being and health?

You can't split apart the definition.

information, especially of a biased or misleading nature, used to promote or publicize a particular political cause or point of view.

If you want to nic pick it says "or"

The purpose is to influence people behaviors and emotions to go along with causes.

It's not negative in nature .

It's highly effective whether people realize it or not.

 

[sayak83]

You can't split apart the definition.

information, especially of a biased or misleading nature, used to promote or publicize a particular political cause or point of view.

If you want to nic pick it says "or"

The purpose is to influence people behaviors and emotions to go along with causes.

It's not negative in nature .

It's highly effective whether people realize it or not.

But the information being promoted is not biased or misleading. That is the point.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Let's look at the difference in aim from this website

While advertisements aim at attracting public attention to a certain service or product and change consumer preference, propaganda aims at distorting facts and basing them on biased opinions hence is misleading to the target group.

In my view what the govt. and media is doing is advertisement here because only the correct facts regarding the real benefits of vaccination in preventing serious Covid and the significantly higher risks of serious illness and mortality associated with not vaccinating are being presented and no attempt at distortion of these facts is happening.
In contrast, a significant chunk of arguments against vaccinations is in fact false and misleading and hence is propaganda which therefore is correctly being taken down from Facebook and other big public networks.
The point about an ad being only about a commercial purchase is simply not true because a non-profit can run an ad to get donors for a charity, or one can run an ad for a job position or even to look for a romantic date for example. Another, an advert outlining the dangers of smoking (in terms of getting cancer) is an ad and not propaganda as the facts presented are correct. Similarly if govt. wishes to censor ads trying to promote drugs and cigarettes because they affect health, that too seems perfectly legitimate to me.
Hence, you need to tell me exactly why you think that Covid related promotions are propaganda when they are giving accurate information and asking the public to take vaccine for their own well being and health?

It's not advertisement because ads are for marketing and companies would be sued if they belittled their possible consumers if they don't buy their product or service.

Propaganda is mostly political in nature.

Why would you feel the gov use propaganda to promote the vaccine as they did with the war?

You think US changes because of a health emergency?

They'd still use methods that's productive on getting people to fight for the cause.

What advertisement you know that put down their consumers and compound the issue by using key words so people can fight with each other?

Ad companies would get sued of they did what the US govn and media are doing now.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

doing is advertisement here because only the correct facts regarding the real benefits of vaccination in preventing serious Covid and the significantly higher risks of serious illness and mortality associated with not vaccinating a

You keep coming to this and I said it has nothing to do with facts.

The facts they are using, they are pushing it through propaganda. It leads to mistrust of the government but only a minority sees it given the urgency of the issue. I mean it would be nice if politicians approach this without propaganda but I dont expect them to change despite the situation.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

But the information being promoted is not biased or misleading. That is the point.

It's biased, yes.

Have you seen anything positive opinions from unvaccinated without media and govern portraying them as "the enemy?"