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Good news for the unvaccinated?

Discussion in 'COVID-19' started by Subduction Zone, Sep 20, 2021.

  1. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Shrugs. I tried.

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    I know you guys disagree with me given I'm unvaxed but this isn't an opinion. US govn has always used some form of politics. Whether the info is true or not because of the how no one can discuss it. There's no need to censor misinformation if the didn't use propaganda tools to get people to vaccinate. Adults can think on their own.

    It's not a vax/unvsx thing. I only see that brought up with vaxed. It's just something I disagree with and just puzzled how vaxed can't see it unless they discredit any facts unvax say.
     
  2. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Subway Stalinist
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    If you don't like that approach, how do you think we should try to persuade people to get vaccinated?
     
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  3. sayak83

    sayak83 Well-Known Member
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    I believe misinformation that harms people should be censored and information that helps people should be promoted. Since vaccines save people's lives I see nothing wrong in the govt. promoting it through door to door, ad campaigns etc. It's public service 101.
     
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  4. Mock Turtle

    Mock Turtle Silent Generation - so don't expect much
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    But why bother with all the media, since there often is a spin put on most things. I know we can't necessarily trust what any government says, but in the case of vaccines, even ones produced very rapidly, it makes more sense to trust the experts. It seems to me that many trust religions over science and with far less evidence.
     
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  5. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    Yes, and if antivaxxers only harmed themselves I would oppose such censorship. But I have yet to see an antivaxxer that can deal with the fact that they are a threat to others.

    I think my drunk driving analogy works very well. A drunk driver is both a threat to himself and to others. If one was only a threat to himself the current laws could not be justified. I need to look at the statistics since vaccinations were widely available. Antivaxxers may be a bigger threat than drunk drivers.
     
  6. sayak83

    sayak83 Well-Known Member
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    Any information which when believed poses a grave risk to the health and well being of a person should be censored. For example if we have posts claiming that cyanide consumption is good for health, such posts need to be taken down in my opinion.
     
  7. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Shrugs. I tried.

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    It doesn't matter who says it. It's a historical facts that propaganda is used to promote causes.

    I just disagree with it. I don't know where you're from but it's totally political in nature.

    It's a fact. You're making it a antivax thing and it's not.
     
  8. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Shrugs. I tried.

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    I'm not sure. They see education isn't working and people not taking the vax they are accused of making the wrong decisions. It's just not productive. If anything provaxxers are making people antivax.

    But if you agree with the propaganda all I said was I disagree with it. Not everyone is pulled in by things like that.
     
  9. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Shrugs. I tried.

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    How did you came to the conclusion it's misinformation that keeps people from not taking the vax?

    I know the US government repeats it and experts follow suite. Repeating the same thing people start to believe it.

    Unless there is proof how do you know?

    Wouldn't it be by person to person basis?
     
  10. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Shrugs. I tried.

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    For example there are people on RF who believe mercury is in vaccines. Another believes vaccines change your DNA. While my coworker believes there are chips and they are watching us.

    So, yes, there is misinformation but it doesn't apply to everyone. Misinformation mantra is highly effective but not true for all people. It's not a good argument.
     
  11. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Shrugs. I tried.

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    Yeah. Gets on my nerves really. It's somewhat like religious indoctrinations and things like that. I think people would see it if it were say a sales product.

    It does a lot of harm. But people justify it with we are saving people's lives so it's worth the hate.

    My original comment was propaganda but I can't remember what it referred to before this convo.
     
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  12. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    You are over generalizing. Yes, propaganda has been used to promote causes. That does not make the support of your claim. Your claim is on the order of saying "German shepherds are dogs, therefore this dog:

    [​IMG]

    is a German Shepherd.

    As you see even he is confused by that claim.
     
  13. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Shrugs. I tried.

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    I can't find my reply to you unfortunately. But if I remember, according to history and purpose of propaganda the cause prompted is getting the vaccine because of the pandemic.


    1. Marketing: like the mc Donald's picture I showed. Amazon products.

    2. Language, analogies, and sayings

    3. Communication theories. Experts and people studied how media affects people's emotions and behaviors. I linked them but I don't know if it was to you or not.

    4. Censorship. Assuming anything that challenges vaccines is misinformation. Outside of conspiracy theories, skepticism is healthy when making healthcare decisions.

    5. Logical fallacies (I won't list though political like religious topics there are a few repeated fallacies do noticed.

    There are others.

    The thing is this isn't charging facts. There are experts who do but because it distracts people from the cause it's deleted.

    I just disagree with it. It's causing political division and people don't care or see it because saving lives as an immediate goal overlooks long term effects.

    Anyway.

    Usage of propaganda in causes is a fact. There's lots of examples but, well, coming from an unvaxed person it's see differently.....

    Which is a huge problem. When you judge the validity of information based on who said it you (people) can do that when they listen to opinions and decern the facts from media and it can cause confirmation bias...

    Edit.
    I can give expert citations to this information for technical reasons. I'm just quoting what I've observed, evidence, and facts from history and all of that.

    Media influence, usage if propaganda, etc are interesting topics. But, well,
     
    #73 Unveiled Artist, Sep 21, 2021
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2021
  14. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    You are conflating propaganda with all sorts of topics now. If one goes by the fairly standard definition that some sort of dishonesty is part of propaganda then the info on vaccines is not propaganda. You used a pejorative term and have not been able to justify it.
     
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  15. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Shrugs. I tried.

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    Here's something of interest. I'm readying it now in full. Gives good examples and study of media influence on society. Politicizing the Pandemic: A Schemata Analysis of COVID-19 News in Two Selected Newspapers
    I'll give specific examples if you want to discuss it.

    Edit (last one)

    Cap: it's talking about media influences and bias on society and how the seriousness of the pandemic is overrided by politics. Politics and media is important to am extent but (my comment-->) we don't know and will never know if it only applies to one side. Given censorship it's probably something that may be explored when the pandemic ends.
    ....
     
    #75 Unveiled Artist, Sep 21, 2021
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2021
  16. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Shrugs. I tried.

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    I didn't say the vaccines are propaganda. You can read it more distinctly in post 49.

    I said the push for vaccine is propaganda.

    I write a lot but please read my posts first.

    I'm not against the vaccine.
    I'm not against science
    I'd be dead without it
     
  17. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    Yes, I accidentally dropped a word. You should have known what I meant. And your posts quite often that you do oppose the sciences. At least on this topic. You may not be against science or the vaccine, but you are against reasonable measures so that people do get vaccinated.
     
  18. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Shrugs. I tried.

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    The posts do not mention anything against science. They are from scientific and other authoritative sources if you click the links.

    Quite specifically, the one in 75 doesn't speak against vaccines (as others don't either). Rather it's talking about misinformation in general and how politics is using health related issues to promote the vaccine and its causing problems. You have to at least skim my posts if not read them.

    For example:
    None of this talks about against the vaccine.

    "Stigmatizing a nation or country for its supposed responsibility in a calamity does not produce a vaccine or medicine for the virus, but rather complicates it. When racism, stereotypes, hate speech, and propaganda are combined with intense fear and terror from a disease, more problems will definitely emerge."

    The problem with politics is that it stirs up hate and conversations like you're having. It's not productive. Also, you (at least from what I gather) are using past arguments to judge the validity of what I'm talking about when this information can stand on its own.
     
  19. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Shrugs. I tried.

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    Shadow, why does it have to be an anti-vax rhetoric?

    Deciding healthcare decisions for oneself, US propaganda to push the vaccine, and pandemic causing division such as the one you're promoting isn't anti-vax rhetoric any more than (I hope) provaxxers telling everyone who disagrees with them reading misinformation, dont care about others, and deserve to not get their own hospital beds when they get sick from COVID.

    You can disagree with my opinions all you want but here is what I think of when I think anti-vax:

    Example of conspiracy theories from anti-vax activist. Believe it or not, I know people who believe some of these things. I was surprised. Anti-Vaccine and COVID-19 Conspiracy Theories: A Perfect Storm (Not a primary citation)


    California continues to combat the coronavirus by ramping up the vaccine distribution, but anti-vaccination protesters temporarily shut down a vaccination site at Dodger Stadium. Lilia Luciano reports.

    You can call me anti-vax all you want but I have better things to do than spark issues just because I disagree with mandates and propaganda.

    If I were from another country I may have a different perspective, but since I'm not persuaded by incentives and push to get the vaccine (and anything else), call it anti-vax all you want but its just being smart not to jump the gun unless the threat is warranted not because of what television tells me but what I access for myself.

    Opinions are a dime or dozen. They're not facts.
     
  20. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    One does not have to mention being against science.
     
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